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Old 12-26-2020, 04:05 PM   #41
Pete
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Default Re: Power Nation Flathead

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Originally Posted by jack orchard View Post
If you have secrets, why not tell us?
What would it cost you - money or otherwise?
We are the last generation that cares.
Just about everything that we do to STREET engines has been posted on here or the HAMB in the last few years. All of these mods are well within reach of the average hot rodder.

I doubt there are any secrets concerning 150 hp street engines. As the saying goes, "even a cave man can do it".

If you want to spend 50K on a record setting Bonneville engine or a vintage circle track engine that you can lap the field in 5 laps then you will be admitted to the "secret" circle. It is just a matter of the bottom line. Education is NOT cheap and it took us at least 50 years and a million bucks to get here.
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Old 12-26-2020, 05:21 PM   #42
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Default Re: Power Nation Flathead

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Originally Posted by jack orchard View Post
If you have secrets, why not tell us?
What would it cost you - money or otherwise?
We are the last generation that cares.
Jack you could not have said it any better!!!!!
Yes we are the last generation who cares and for those with all of their "secrets" how many of you see the flatheads being ripped out, discarded, and replaced with a SBC or a crate engine??
I do not want a 200 HP engine because now we are seriously modifying this engine!
Another quote is all the information is on this forum. ??? In reality a bit of this so information in some cases is speculation, hearsay, or assumptions and other members have pointed this out as well.

I arrived at this conclusion sifting through discussions on cylinder heads, and camshafts! One can spend hours looking though the information and easily come to this conclusion.
As an example cylinder heads such as EAB and EAC. I ran across EAB is better, no EAC, is better and next it will be NFG is better🤣 as the alphabet discussion continues.

Next we get into the camshafts and this is another "kettle of fish"🤬
NO I most certainly don't want something that is over cammed that idles so rough it bounces around like Hoppy the Hopparoo or sounds like a twin cylinder John Deere tractor.
Now people don't get me wrong as I'm not wanting to flame or criticize but what we need is does it work or no it doesn't work from those who have tried and yes I will post what my findings are because one can spend hours sifting.

In my case, all I'm looking for is perhaps 10, 20, or maybe 30 HP more🙏 and this shouldn't be much of a secret or too much to ask for?
When we get into 160+ well now we are doing major mods, major cash money for something that may or may not work depending on information or mistakes made and for this category you can keep those secrets LMAO!


Now camshafts................I have an 8CM in use presently and also have a pair of EAB and many thanks to more than helpful forum members providing information has led me to figure out what I have! A simple fact that I never knew is look at the end and see what's stamped. Lo and behold I got an EAB👍
Now for the confusion and that is, am I gaining anything after spending time swapping along with a bit of cash for gaskets?

The confusion is the 8CM appears to have more lift vs the EAB possibly having a better duration? Is a swap from 8CM to EAB a waste of time or will it get me perhaps 5+ more HP?
What about the so called "mild" aftermarket camshaft or is it no better than a stock 8CM,EAB, or EAC?
Okay now cylinder heads?
8CM vs EAB or EAC OR is Ol Ron's valuable information about the .050 rule more important?? In other words if pretty much any head except for 8RT milled for a .050 will work, or is a milled EAB or EAC better?

Now maybe you can see what I mean by so much information to sift through for only small amounts?😆🤣😂
I'm looking for quite simply small amounts of gain with what I have on hand as both a hobby and fascination with these flatheads after all I'm driving around in a stock 71 year old car like a Cuban.


Oh I might add I know what its like to pull intakes while the engine is in the car! Years ago (early 80's) when I purchased my Mercury I made the mistake of using adjustable lifters. After a number of times pulling the intake to kill woodpeckers I assumed the new lifters were just seating into a used cam. Wrong! Along finally comes the internet where some mentioned these lifters can creep!! They now have instructions mentioning that if the bolt turns with insufficient resistance, to remove the bolt and place in a vice end for end and compress to squish the threads together🤬 Mine came with nothing but the box and lousy wrench and since then park my ass behind a valve grinder and I will set those valves whisper quiet with no creepers because I'm now 40 years into the trade as a mechanic.

Unfortunately I usually do things stock and don't modify which is why I and others are looking for answers especially for small amounts of gain.
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Old 12-26-2020, 05:44 PM   #43
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Default Re: Power Nation Flathead

Well here is some information so far on the 8CM VS EAB or EAC and Ol Ron mentioned he never ran an EAC but liked the EAB
I don't have an EAC but just have an EAB and the only other cam I have is in a 1CM and 8BA block I got laying around.
My definition of gains is my car went 85 and now with a model x camshaft it does 90 as an example. Unless there is a comparison before and after in the same vehicle, it will be more difficult to determine loss or gain, just my 2 cents here.


https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=270791

Last edited by 56markII; 12-26-2020 at 05:52 PM. Reason: Added link
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Old 12-26-2020, 06:51 PM   #44
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Default Re: Power Nation Flathead

It's really not which heads you have, but what you do to them that counts. If you're just gonna bolt 'em on with out checking and optimizing them, you're wasting your time.
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Old 12-26-2020, 07:04 PM   #45
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Default Re: Power Nation Flathead

I'm not following this lack of information, there is tons of information on modifying flatheads. As Pete posted, don't think you have to worry about any secrets until you get into the very advanced modifications arena. Several members here on the Barn have published books on the subject.

Last edited by JSeery; 12-30-2020 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 12-26-2020, 07:33 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack orchard View Post
If you have secrets, why not tell us?
What would it cost you - money or otherwise?
We are the last generation that cares.



Jack please don't take my comment the wrong way. The mystery of the 200 HP flathead is what I'm referring to. Two flathead designs that are worth investigating are the Briggs and Stratton 5 HP engines as used in the Jr Dragster class and the second is the Harley flathead KR design each can be used for any generation interested. We are not the last generation to care about the flathead heck I'm presently helping young guys and a few girls with their flathead builds so you can be sure the end is not going to happen for a VERY long time.
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First ever gas burning Ford flathead powered roadster to run 200 MPH at Bonneville Salt Flats setting the record August 7th 2021 at 205.744 MPH
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Old 12-26-2020, 08:50 PM   #47
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Default Re: Power Nation Flathead

Very impressive videos that much I do know .
Those flatheads are making tremendous power.
Ronnie,,,,and the other guys,,,,,,that takes a lot of work and money to produce power like you guys are .
I salute you for devoting the time and money to make this happen .
Don’t tell a soul how you did it,,,,,you earned it the hard way .
I am curious what kind of gear boxes you use ,,,,,,lots of whine when the engine is shut down ?

Tommy
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Old 12-26-2020, 09:43 PM   #48
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Default Re: Power Nation Flathead

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I am curious what kind of gear boxes you use ,,,,,,lots of whine when the engine is shut down ?Tommy
That is a nice thing about circle track racing.There is no transmission to blow up or lose power through, in the sprint cars and midgets. The very early ones used a "dog" clutch and the later ones a sliding sleeve in the rear end. The modifieds usually use a race transmission of which there are several brands. For the rear end, sprint cars and midgets use a typical quick change center section with an open axle and one inboard 2 puck disc brake.
Race transmissions and quick change rear ends have spur gears so they all whine.

Last edited by Pete; 12-26-2020 at 11:29 PM.
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Old 12-26-2020, 10:22 PM   #49
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Default Re: Power Nation Flathead

.

Ronnie.....All of that whining racket I'm hearing as the car slows down after the run and continues to whine after the car has stopped....is that possibly an electric water pump we're hearing? DD
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Old 12-26-2020, 10:29 PM   #50
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Default Re: Power Nation Flathead

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Now as for turbos...

The Ford flathead V8 could probably win an award for the worst American V8 to put a turbo on. Turbos need the exhaust gasses to stay hot between the cylinders and the turbine nozzle (has to do with gas flow energy). Our Ford flathead V8s route the exhaust through the cooling passages between the cylinders and the exhaust ports.
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Old 12-26-2020, 11:46 PM   #51
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Our Ford flathead V8s route the exhaust through the cooling passages between the cylinders and the exhaust ports.
Not always.
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Old 12-27-2020, 10:05 AM   #52
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Default Re: Power Nation Flathead

Hi Guys here's answers to some of the questions.
DD The whining sound you hear is the water pump after a run we continue circulating water doing this helps in eliminating cylinder cracks. Another sound you hear during the slow down is the Quickchange rear axle the straight cut change gears make a sweet sounding noise as well. Tommy The transmission we use is a shortened Ford C-4 three speed it may be the fastest C-4 ever when running our race 292 cube Ardun top speed has been 229 MPH.
Here's a bit more information about the first six years of this journey.
To get to this point where we now have speed and reliability has taken the sacrifice of 4 blocks. One was a French block and the rest late Ford blocks 8BA and 1BA. Learning a little more with each combination has shown for us the best blocks have been the 1BA the ones with no removable valve seats not easy to find but I'm always on the lookout for another just in case.
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I use the F word a lot no not that word these words Flathead , Focus and Finish.
"Life Member of the Bonneville 200 MPH Club using a Ford Flathead block"
Owner , Builder, Driver of the First Ford Flathead bodied roadster to run 200 MPH Record July 13, 2018 LTA timing association 200.921 in one and a half miles burning gasoline.
First ever gas burning Ford flathead powered roadster to run 200 MPH at Bonneville Salt Flats setting the record August 7th 2021 at 205.744 MPH
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Old 12-27-2020, 10:29 AM   #53
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Default Re: Power Nation Flathead

Okay that makes sense .
I never thought about a quick change,,,,yep,,,,straight cut spur gears will sound pretty loud at speed after shutdown .
Beautiful job !

Tommy
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Old 12-28-2020, 11:18 PM   #54
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Here is a video of a car with a typical noisy quick change. All the cars in this video are powered by flathead Ford engines of 286 ci or less. The car with the camera is probably the fastest vintage modified running these days and it has an engine that would have been classed as a street engine in the 50's. Notice the vacuum gauge at various points on the track. He is not getting to full throttle till half way down the straight. (too much hp for the legal tire size) Tach says 6200 max.
Lots of hp left on the table but if you win all of the races, why spend for more?
https://youtu.be/49mknw1Fkfg
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Old 12-29-2020, 02:41 AM   #55
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Here is a video of a car with a typical noisy quick change.
Lots of hp left on the table but if you win all of the races, why spend for more?
https://youtu.be/49mknw1Fkfg
That's a pretty decent sounding ol' flathead. I DO appreciate the 'fun' ride-along! DD
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Old 12-29-2020, 07:22 AM   #56
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Default Re: Power Nation Flathead

Good reading. When I had my flathead built, my machinist warned me of the expense involved and the associated rate of return on Hp. Good thing I just wanted a stk build, and no fancy aftermarket heads and intake (couldn't afford it). I totally respect those that have invested their lives into racing flatheads, and the secrets they have learned and earned over decades of hard work. I wouldn't be giving up any secrets either. That is what competive sports is all about across the board. I'm no engine builder/ designer, but as a mechanical engineer with some knowledge, and it would be no secret to anyone, the success of any performance engine is volumetric and combustion efficiency, and getting there with a flathead design is where the secrets lie. I'm not sure if anyone has tried it, but direct fuel injection into the head would probably make a huge difference.
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Old 12-29-2020, 08:09 AM   #57
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Pete, I really enjoyes that trip aroundthe track, reminded me of my youte. Our rules had a 2400 lb weight min, so were much lighter than these cars, but the engines were still 258 ci
We had the engine tuned on a chassis dyno once and it made 127HP. how the driver said the car didn't have the pull off the corners so we put it back to where it was. Sometimes the numbers don't mean much. However the short tracks are the best visual racing you can find.
Gramps.
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Old 12-29-2020, 09:57 AM   #58
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Thats a great video Pete Thanks for posting it. Seeing how well the car pulls in high gear tells me the final change gear ratio is in the high 4's am I close?
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I use the F word a lot no not that word these words Flathead , Focus and Finish.
"Life Member of the Bonneville 200 MPH Club using a Ford Flathead block"
Owner , Builder, Driver of the First Ford Flathead bodied roadster to run 200 MPH Record July 13, 2018 LTA timing association 200.921 in one and a half miles burning gasoline.
First ever gas burning Ford flathead powered roadster to run 200 MPH at Bonneville Salt Flats setting the record August 7th 2021 at 205.744 MPH
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Old 12-29-2020, 06:12 PM   #59
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We ran 5.42 at Danbury 1/3 mile
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Old 12-30-2020, 01:01 PM   #60
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Default Re: Power Nation Flathead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post
Here is a video of a car with a typical noisy quick change. All the cars in this video are powered by flathead Ford engines of 286 ci or less. The car with the camera is probably the fastest vintage modified running these days and it has an engine that would have been classed as a street engine in the 50's. Notice the vacuum gauge at various points on the track. He is not getting to full throttle till half way down the straight. (too much hp for the legal tire size) Tach says 6200 max.
Lots of hp left on the table but if you win all of the races, why spend for more?
https://youtu.be/49mknw1Fkfg
Are any races like this happening in the PNW? I would love to see some of these live. Or any other events with flatheads?
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