The Ford Barn

28ACoupe · 08-20-2013, 05:14 PM

Anyone happen to know how much torque the Model A engine puts out in it's stock form?

PC/SR · 08-20-2013, 06:54 PM

The Model A Engine-Chassis Manual, compiled from Dyke's Encyclopedia, claims 128 lbs at 1000 RPM. I don't know where that number came from. Ron Kelley dyno tests (http://www.amuffler.com/dyno/dyno1.htm) has 77.3 ft/lbs at 1000 rpm stock, and does not get up to the Dykes number range until he put on a B head with 5.4 CR and bored .125 over, enlarged ports, Mallory ignition and a "mild" cam. (Test #6)

Kurt in NJ · 08-20-2013, 07:33 PM

Piranos shows a stock engine at 129 for torque at 1200 rpm, 38 hp @2000 rpm
http://www.modelaparts.net/dynosheets.htm/dyno1.htm

PC/SR · 08-20-2013, 08:56 PM

That is a remarkable difference between the two engines. I wonder why?

Marco Tahtaras · 08-20-2013, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PC/SR

That is a remarkable difference between the two engines. I wonder why?

The reason is the cam regrind which is an issue more common than not. More important is the overall torque curve. The "A grind" in the Ron Kelly engine would likely perform decent in an engine set up to run higher RPM. The requirements are considerably different and the latter is attainable with a regrind.

Napa Skip · 08-20-2013, 09:28 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

The attached thumbnail is from page 123 of Volume 7 of How To Restore Your Model A. It shows Torque and Horsepower vs RPM for the Model A engine. Torque appears to peak at 122 lbf-ft at 1000 rpm. No source data is given for the illustration (that I could find).

Torque v RPM Curve.jpg

28ACoupe · 08-20-2013, 11:07 PM

Thanks guys. The 75-80 lbs/ft was about what I though would be right.

PC/SR · 08-20-2013, 11:29 PM

Marco: Neat chart, wish I could do that sort of thing.

I agree that regrinds are not all accurate, but it seems to me that (everything else being stock equal) it would have to be a truly radical grind to produce that kind of torque spike, if it could be done at all, without something else involved, or just be a recording or equipment error. I am thinking in terms of volumetric efficiency, and wonder if some unintended or unknown tuning of exhaust or some other factor is involved to produce such a sharp rising peak following a descending curve. (Again, assuming intake is pretty much the same.) Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems a cam that is inefficient at a low RPM will become gradually more efficient through the overlap period as RPM increases, until it reaches its peak, thus producing a rising curve, not one that descends and then suddenly rises. I have never seen a curve like the Kelly curve, but hey...I am willing to learn.

In short, I think there is something more than cam grind to explain the difference between the Kelley and Pirano charts, although I agree grind must surely be a factor. I just assumed everything was stock and equal as reported. There is a lot to analyze between the two.

Back to the original question, I have no idea of stock torque, but the 120 something ft/lbs figure of Pirano, Dykes and the old chart has appeal although it is more than I would have thought. And Pirano just set a record at Bonneville for a gas powered flathead coupe of 100 mph. Gotta respect that.

BILL WILLIAMSON · 08-21-2013, 02:02 AM

Whatever the numbers are, a stock Model A will climb hills & mountains like a GOAT, if you select the proper gear for that grade & the proper amount of advance for that RPM. (And we have some REALLY WILD mountains here! ^^^^^^^^^)
Bill W.

28ACoupe · 08-21-2013, 04:24 PM

Sometimes, like a goat walking backwards.

PetesPonies · 08-21-2013, 04:43 PM

You realize that HP is derived from Torque. So if you have a HP level you believe and know the RPM for which that is taken . . then it's just working backwards to the original torque value.

28ACoupe · 08-21-2013, 05:48 PM

Easy to do.

Go for it....

Rocketsled · 08-22-2013, 07:00 AM

Hello Everyone!
I'm back here, having sold my '48 V-8 and acquired a '30 coupe.
Anyway, I was in England last January and was a spectator for part of the, 'Exeter Trial', which is a two-day auto and motorcycle torture festival in the southwest and Dartmoor. Check it out on YouTube videos. I was watching antique cars slithering and clawing their way up a narrow and slippery hill which was difficult to even stand upright upon, chatting to a father and son who were also watching. They told me that Model A Fords were excellent trials cars and later I saw Tudor and Fordors ascent hills that baffled many smaller, lighter cars. My new friends said they were planning to build a trials Model A, but needed a running-driving chassis to begin with.

Allanw · 08-22-2013, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocketsled

'Exeter Trial', which is a two-day auto and motorcycle torture festival

You're not wrong!

Awesome to watch!

Kurt in NJ · 08-22-2013, 08:47 PM

The cars with the 70-80 ft lbs are the ones comfortable at 45, and can get to a little over 50 ---I had one of them with a reground cam ---then I put in an original cam with barely any wear, now I have what is probably one of the 120 ft lb cars that has no problem going over 60 and gets 20 mpg doing it --same carb, same original head, only change was cam. ---I first noticed the change when I was on the PA turnpike going into Ohio, I was slowing down going up the "hills"---starting to worry about going too slow, then I started passing modern cars ---no more worrys.

A good cam and some more compression seems to be very good.

PetesPonies · 08-22-2013, 11:44 PM

easier formula . . HP = (Torque * RPM) / 5252

. . . solving for. . . . Torque = (5252 * HP ) / RPM

So, if you had 60 HP at 2500 RPMs you would have 126 ft/lbs of Torque.

BILL WILLIAMSON · 08-23-2013, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocketsled

Hello Everyone!
I'm back here, having sold my '48 V-8 and acquired a '30 coupe.
Anyway, I was in England last January and was a spectator for part of the, 'Exeter Trial', which is a two-day auto and motorcycle torture festival in the southwest and Dartmoor. Check it out on YouTube videos. I was watching antique cars slithering and clawing their way up a narrow and slippery hill which was difficult to even stand upright upon, chatting to a father and son who were also watching. They told me that Model A Fords were excellent trials cars and later I saw Tudor and Fordors ascent hills that baffled many smaller, lighter cars. My new friends said they were planning to build a trials Model A, but needed a running-driving chassis to begin with.

I saw pics of the English trials in the 50's and they would turn the old Ford front axles upside down to gain ground clearance. Bill W.

Chuck Sea/Tac · 08-23-2013, 01:16 AM

So are you saying a all reground cams won't have the power of an original, or is it dependent on the grinders "skill"?

Not George · 08-23-2013, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocketsled

hello everyone!
I'm back here, having sold my '48 v-8 and acquired a '30 coupe.
Anyway, i was in england last january and was a spectator for part of the, 'exeter trial', which is a two-day auto and motorcycle torture festival in the southwest and dartmoor. Check it out on youtube videos. I was watching antique cars slithering and clawing their way up a narrow and slippery hill which was difficult to even stand upright upon, chatting to a father and son who were also watching. They told me that model a fords were excellent trials cars and later i saw tudor and fordors ascent hills that baffled many smaller, lighter cars. My new friends said they were planning to build a trials model a, but needed a running-driving chassis to begin with.

start your own thread

Richard Lorenz · 08-23-2013, 10:46 AM

This is about dyno tests in general. I wish that they would publish the engine temperature and report if it was constant during the test. Also, it seems that the timing is preset and left unchanged during the test. Both of these things could have an influence on the results. I do not recall if the gasoline type and octane is reported, but it is something else that readers would want to know.

08-20-2013, 05:14 PM	#1
28ACoupe Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 559	Torque? Anyone happen to know how much torque the Model A engine puts out in it's stock form? __________________ 1928 Model A Business Coupe Rebuild picture gallery here The light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off due to budget cuts.

08-20-2013, 06:54 PM	#2
PC/SR Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 1,279	Re: Torque? The Model A Engine-Chassis Manual, compiled from Dyke's Encyclopedia, claims 128 lbs at 1000 RPM. I don't know where that number came from. Ron Kelley dyno tests (http://www.amuffler.com/dyno/dyno1.htm) has 77.3 ft/lbs at 1000 rpm stock, and does not get up to the Dykes number range until he put on a B head with 5.4 CR and bored .125 over, enlarged ports, Mallory ignition and a "mild" cam. (Test #6) Last edited by PC/SR; 08-20-2013 at 08:59 PM.

08-20-2013, 07:33 PM	#3
Kurt in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: on the Littlefield Posts: 6,159	Re: Torque? Piranos shows a stock engine at 129 for torque at 1200 rpm, 38 hp @2000 rpm http://www.modelaparts.net/dynosheets.htm/dyno1.htm

08-20-2013, 08:56 PM	#4
PC/SR Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 1,279	Re: Torque? That is a remarkable difference between the two engines. I wonder why?

08-20-2013, 11:07 PM	#7
28ACoupe Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 559	Re: Torque? Thanks guys. The 75-80 lbs/ft was about what I though would be right. __________________ 1928 Model A Business Coupe Rebuild picture gallery here The light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off due to budget cuts.

08-20-2013, 09:28 PM	#6
Napa Skip Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Napa CA Posts: 412	Re: Torque? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) The attached thumbnail is from page 123 of Volume 7 of How To Restore Your Model A. It shows Torque and Horsepower vs RPM for the Model A engine. Torque appears to peak at 122 lbf-ft at 1000 rpm. No source data is given for the illustration (that I could find). Torque v RPM Curve.jpg __________________ Skip Keyser Napa Valley A's Olympic Vintage Auto Club (1980-1982) MARC of San Diego (1977-1978) MAFCA (since 1978) MARC (since 1977) ---------- Model A owners belong in their Model A’s; Model A’s belong on the road.

08-20-2013, 11:29 PM	#8
PC/SR Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 1,279	Re: Torque? Marco: Neat chart, wish I could do that sort of thing. I agree that regrinds are not all accurate, but it seems to me that (everything else being stock equal) it would have to be a truly radical grind to produce that kind of torque spike, if it could be done at all, without something else involved, or just be a recording or equipment error. I am thinking in terms of volumetric efficiency, and wonder if some unintended or unknown tuning of exhaust or some other factor is involved to produce such a sharp rising peak following a descending curve. (Again, assuming intake is pretty much the same.) Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems a cam that is inefficient at a low RPM will become gradually more efficient through the overlap period as RPM increases, until it reaches its peak, thus producing a rising curve, not one that descends and then suddenly rises. I have never seen a curve like the Kelly curve, but hey...I am willing to learn. In short, I think there is something more than cam grind to explain the difference between the Kelley and Pirano charts, although I agree grind must surely be a factor. I just assumed everything was stock and equal as reported. There is a lot to analyze between the two. Back to the original question, I have no idea of stock torque, but the 120 something ft/lbs figure of Pirano, Dykes and the old chart has appeal although it is more than I would have thought. And Pirano just set a record at Bonneville for a gas powered flathead coupe of 100 mph. Gotta respect that. Last edited by PC/SR; 08-20-2013 at 11:36 PM.

08-21-2013, 02:02 AM	#9
BILL WILLIAMSON Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: FRESNO, CA Posts: 12,560	Re: Torque? Whatever the numbers are, a stock Model A will climb hills & mountains like a GOAT, if you select the proper gear for that grade & the proper amount of advance for that RPM. (And we have some REALLY WILD mountains here! ^^^^^^^^^) Bill W. __________________ "THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF" Last edited by BILL WILLIAMSON; 08-21-2013 at 02:26 AM.

08-21-2013, 04:24 PM	#10
28ACoupe Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 559	Re: Torque? Sometimes, like a goat walking backwards. __________________ 1928 Model A Business Coupe Rebuild picture gallery here The light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off due to budget cuts.

08-21-2013, 04:43 PM	#11
PetesPonies Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: South Carolina Posts: 316	Re: Torque? You realize that HP is derived from Torque. So if you have a HP level you believe and know the RPM for which that is taken . . then it's just working backwards to the original torque value. __________________ Pete's Ponies Mustang RUSToration & Performance

08-21-2013, 05:48 PM	#12
28ACoupe Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 559	Re: Torque? Easy to do. Go for it.... __________________ 1928 Model A Business Coupe Rebuild picture gallery here The light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off due to budget cuts.

08-22-2013, 07:00 AM	#13
Rocketsled Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wakefield, N.H. USA Posts: 142	Re: Torque? Hello Everyone! I'm back here, having sold my '48 V-8 and acquired a '30 coupe. Anyway, I was in England last January and was a spectator for part of the, 'Exeter Trial', which is a two-day auto and motorcycle torture festival in the southwest and Dartmoor. Check it out on YouTube videos. I was watching antique cars slithering and clawing their way up a narrow and slippery hill which was difficult to even stand upright upon, chatting to a father and son who were also watching. They told me that Model A Fords were excellent trials cars and later I saw Tudor and Fordors ascent hills that baffled many smaller, lighter cars. My new friends said they were planning to build a trials Model A, but needed a running-driving chassis to begin with.

08-22-2013, 08:47 PM	#15
Kurt in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: on the Littlefield Posts: 6,159	Re: Torque? The cars with the 70-80 ft lbs are the ones comfortable at 45, and can get to a little over 50 ---I had one of them with a reground cam ---then I put in an original cam with barely any wear, now I have what is probably one of the 120 ft lb cars that has no problem going over 60 and gets 20 mpg doing it --same carb, same original head, only change was cam. ---I first noticed the change when I was on the PA turnpike going into Ohio, I was slowing down going up the "hills"---starting to worry about going too slow, then I started passing modern cars ---no more worrys. A good cam and some more compression seems to be very good.

08-22-2013, 11:44 PM	#16
PetesPonies Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: South Carolina Posts: 316	Re: Torque? easier formula . . HP = (Torque * RPM) / 5252 . . . solving for. . . . Torque = (5252 * HP ) / RPM So, if you had 60 HP at 2500 RPMs you would have 126 ft/lbs of Torque. __________________ Pete's Ponies Mustang RUSToration & Performance

08-23-2013, 01:16 AM	#18
Chuck Sea/Tac Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Between Seattle & Tacoma Posts: 2,354	Re: Torque? So are you saying a all reground cams won't have the power of an original, or is it dependent on the grinders "skill"?

08-23-2013, 10:46 AM	#20
Richard Lorenz Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 447	Re: Torque? This is about dyno tests in general. I wish that they would publish the engine temperature and report if it was constant during the test. Also, it seems that the timing is preset and left unchanged during the test. Both of these things could have an influence on the results. I do not recall if the gasoline type and octane is reported, but it is something else that readers would want to know.