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Old 04-16-2021, 11:27 AM   #41
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Tail Drager,

I am confused. The following are your words:

Got the crank and pistons in tonight, what an ordeal, The Clevite CB-745P STD bearings DO NOT sit flush with the surface of the saddle or caps. There's an interference fit when trying to set the bearing caps on the crank. I absolutely could not rotate the crank by hand the first time I installed only bearing caps 1 and 5 just hand tight. I realized right away there was an issue and got on the phone. I was able to get some official numbers to check and ask some questions. After getting off the phone, I checked the journal DIA and bore, both were within spec, must be the bearings.


For clarification. I did torque 1 & 5 to 55 ft-lbs before removing to file. The crank was locked up and could not be turned by hand. Please advise what the expectation should be when correctly installing all bearings with torque. How much force should be required to rotate the crank?


Were bearings 1 and 5 hand tightened or tightened to 55 lb-ft?

The "Builders Guide" that comes with the cylinder block is not complete and not up to date. Go to www.modelaengine.com and under "Guides", you will find the latest "Builders Guide", "Doubling the Flow Area of a Model A Oil Pump", and "Installing an Oil Filter".

Please take all of your parts to an engine builder along with the latest "Builders Guide". It will save you a lot of money and heartache.

Terry Burtz
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Old 04-16-2021, 11:47 AM   #42
Ruth
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Following along as I am confused also and am interested in the outcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tail Dragger View Post
Got the crank and pistons in tonight, what an ordeal, The Clevite CB-745P STD bearings DO NOT sit flush with the surface of the saddle or caps. There's an interference fit when trying to set the bearing caps on the crank. I absolutely could not rotate the crank by hand the first time I installed only bearing caps 1 and 5 just hand tight. I realized right away there was an issue and got on the phone. I was able to get some official numbers to check and ask some questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tail Dragger View Post
For clarification. I did torque 1 & 5 to 55 ft-lbs before removing to file. The crank was locked up and could not be turned by hand. Please advise what the expectation should be when correctly installing all bearings with torque. How much force should be required to rotate the crank?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif View Post
Tail Drager,

I am confused.


Terry Burtz
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Old 04-16-2021, 01:05 PM   #43
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

I think what he meant was:
Quote:
  1. I tightened them by hand
  2. I couldn't turn the crank
  3. I called Terry
  4. After I called Terry I torqued them to 55 ft-lbs
  5. I still couldn't turn the crank
  6. Then I filed them down
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Old 04-16-2021, 01:41 PM   #44
Tail Dragger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexiskai View Post
I think what he meant was:

You've got it, however I talked to another individual involved with the product. Apologies for the confusion.

Before torqueing them down, I made the call. While on the call, I torqued them. The bearing caps never came back off or experienced more than a 1/4 turn on the crank before torqueing.

I'm stepping out to pick up the 2020cp bearings rather than the cb-745P that I had previously used once I hit send.

The motor is apart, cleaned and ready to go. The plan is to:

Inspect and clean new bearings
Drill bearings for the #2 and #4 oil passages
Install bearings dry
Install crank dry
Put plasti gauge on journals
Install caps dry
Torque hardware to 55 ft-lbs
Remove caps
Measure/record plasti gauges
Remove crank
Apply proper lubrication
Reinstall crank/caps (ensure all bearings stay in their original place) and torque to 55 ft-lbs
Celebrate!

Last edited by Tail Dragger; 04-16-2021 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 04-16-2021, 02:14 PM   #45
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Tail Dragger,

I do not recommend using the Plasticgage dry.

The following is copied from the "Builders Guide" found at www.modelaengine.com

We recommend that main and connecting rod bearing clearances be verified to be .002 inch with oiled Plasticgage (SPG-1, range .001 to .003 inch). Oil prevents the deformed Plastigage from sticking to the journal or bearing shell.

If you want to speak with me on the phone, ask John Lampl for my number or send a private message.

Terry Burtz
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Old 04-16-2021, 03:25 PM   #46
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Just a couple random thoughts, the CB-745P is a direct cross to the 2020 it should make no difference unless incorrect or damaged.
Never assemble bearings and crank without oil. I use 90wt gear oil to check fit crank and then assembly lube on final assembly.

Make sure to clean the outside of bearing shell with solvent or acetone, you want no oil here in between bearing and bore. Same again for the bores in the block, absolutely clean. This is more for verifying no debris or dirt.

This is a newly machined assembly of parts, therefore some sense of investigation must be done upon assembly. Main and Rod bearings have a couple different places that can bind, diameter out of spec, width issue and fillet interference and the tangs.

I am sure the diameters are good, easy to verify though with the correct tools.
The crank has rolled fillets, I seriously doubt this is an issue, but could be.
The Tangs may not be cut deep enough, this again is easy to diagnose, assemble the bearing shells into the bores without the crank in place. You will see light under the shell once clamped in place. use flashlight on backside to illuminate.
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Old 04-16-2021, 03:26 PM   #47
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Happy to chat however I can't message you because I don't have enough posts to gain access. I asked John for your number.

Here's one of the issues I've come across. The bearing notch in the #4 cap is not large enough to accept the bearing.
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Old 04-16-2021, 05:56 PM   #48
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Default The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tail Dragger View Post
Happy to chat however I can't message you because I don't have enough posts to gain access.

Tail Dragger,

You already have 9 posts. You only need 10. Please respond to this post to make your 10.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Old 04-16-2021, 09:06 PM   #49
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

So these engine blocks are made in China?
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Old 04-16-2021, 11:07 PM   #50
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Yes, they are made in China

Tail Dragger, I can see part of your problem. You need to take each one of your inserts and check for fit in the notches. Don’t force them in, you could have a burr in the notch holding it out. Go to your hardware store or someplace where they sell needle files. Usually it only takes a small amount of filing to remove a burr if there is one present, don’t over do it! . Make sure all of the caps and your block is clean and free of any debris. When you install one of the inserts carefully and gently start the tab in the notch. Gently with your thumbs push the insert down. I push one end all the way on one side then the other rocking it about a 1/16” on each side and rotating from one side to the other then both ends even with the mating surface. As Terry mentioned in the guide, you might need to file a corner of the insert to provide clearance from the stud. There is no excuse or shame to find a professional engine rebuilder to help you on this. Reading your posts you have ruined your bearings. Get a new set and take it to somebody that can help you. Everybody here has given you good advice, but you need to listen to what they tell you.
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Old 04-16-2021, 11:17 PM   #51
Terry Burtz, Calif
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I spoke with Tail Dragger on the phone this afternoon a couple of times and we exchanged text messages.

His earlier phone conversation was with John Lampl. He got my phone number from John.

He bought a new set of Federal Mogul 2020-CP standard inserts for the main bearings to replace the ones that were sanded.

One of the intermediate main bearing caps on his new engine had a notch that was not wide enough for the new bearing insert tab. Tail Dragger used a Dremel tool to widen the notch that allowed the bearing insert tab to fit with a slight clearance.

The new bearing inserts were installed in the cylinder block followed by the crankshaft.

The new bearing inserts were installed in the main bearing caps (after the notch was widened) and oiled Plastigage was laid across all inserts in the main caps.

The main bearing caps had their fasteners torqued to 55 lb-ft and then the caps were removed.

The Plastigage readings on all 5 main bearings agree with the tolerances specified in the Clevite Bearing Catalog (https://www.mahle-aftermarket.com/me...s/eb-20-18.pdf) for CB-745P inserts.

Tail Dragger then cleaned off the Plastigage and reassembled everything with oil and is happy about the fit and how the crankshaft rotates.

I asked him to post his findings on FordBarn. Perhaps he can add more details.
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Old 04-17-2021, 06:46 AM   #52
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

I stopped using Plastigauge many years ago.
the go/no-go method using aluminum foil is easier and I believe more accurate.
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Old 04-17-2021, 08:28 AM   #53
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After building many engines over the years one thing I have notice about bearing shells. If you look at the backside of the shell, some shells are laser etched with name size ect. others are stamped. If the stamping process gets carried away (stamped too hard) material raises up causing a tight spot. Removing the raised material around the letters/numbers with a file fixes the problem. Remove only the raised material being careful not to file away any of the surrounding shell.
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Old 04-17-2021, 11:40 AM   #54
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First and foremost, I cant speak highly enough of Terry Burtz and John Lampl. They both took time out of their day to help methodically go through the issues and find a solution. Customer service is just as important as quality in my book, and those 2 hit it out of the park.

I'm pleased to say, we now have a freely turning crank without any wear marks on the bearings.

Summary:

Cause of initial problem with crank locking up - A combination of my inexperience and undersized slots on the bearing caps for the anti-rotation lugs. The anti-rotation slots on bearing caps #1, #2 and #4 were undersized which caused the crank to seize when torqued. My inexperience led me to believe the Clevite CB745P bearings were at fault, so I proceeded to file down the bearing ends to provide more clearance. Variability between bearing color and anti-rotation notch size influenced that rookie decision.

Undersized notches


Bearing in undersized notch


Variability of Clevite bearings


Proper example of notch clearance can be seen on the block, which had no issues


The solution - New Federal Mogul 2020CP bearings were purchased. It's important to note that there appears to be more uniformity with the Mogul bearings over Clevite bearings. A dremel tool with fiber cut-off wheel was used to enlarge the bearing anti-rotation notch in bearing cap #4, A needle file was used to clean up an slightly enlarge the notches in bearing caps #1 and #2. Upon inspection, there appeared to be adequate notch clearance so everything was meticulously cleaned and prepared. The bearings and crank were installed followed by bearings/caps with oiled plastigauge. Hardware was torqued to 30 ft-lbs from the center of the crank moving outward and again at 55 ft-lbs to achieve the specified torque value. The plasigauge readings were as follows:

Journals
1A - .002"
1B - .001"
2 - .002"
3A - .001"-
3B - .001"
4 - .0015"
5A - .0035"
5B - .0035"

The caps/crank were removed, everything reinstalled with proper lubrication. Upon torqueing the hardware, it was apparent we had found a solution to the problem as the crank rotated beautifully. Endplay was rechecked and found to be .0035", within specification.


Conclusion - At the end of the day, with the help of Terry and this forum, we got the crank in and functioning properly....a big win if you ask me. I can't imagine the logistics that go into producing such a specialized product as this and therefore respect all involved with making it come to fruition. This was a big learning experience for me and hopefully will become a resource for others. Terry mentioned he's going to revisit the tool path for the notches to ensure future caps are correct. Looking forward to completing this build and installing the engine in the car. Thanks everyone.


Lessons learned:
Thoroughly clean the water jacket to remove sand and debris. A 7" wire was found inside the jacket.
Do not modify bearings.
Mogul 2020CP bearings appear to be of higher quality than Clevite CB-745P.
Inspect bearing anti-rotation notch clearance.
Fully torque caps down before attempting to move the crank.
Only measure critical clearance when oiled.
I have a lot to learn.

Last edited by Tail Dragger; 04-18-2021 at 06:25 AM.
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Old 04-17-2021, 11:40 AM   #55
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Read the 'guide' instructions...thoroughly ! At one point it instructs....don't measure clearance DRY !
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Old 04-17-2021, 11:52 AM   #56
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris in WNC View Post
I stopped using Plastigauge many years ago.
the go/no-go method using aluminum foil is easier and I believe more accurate.
Chris,
The aluminum foil method works for Babbitt bearings but not so well with insert bearings. The use of Plastigage, as Terry Burtz suggests in his engine building guide, with the insert and shaft fully oiled is the proper method for checking the oil clearance for this engine. Never dry!
I will be starting to de-bur and clean mine this weekend. I expect it to go together without issues.
Good Day!
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Old 04-17-2021, 11:59 AM   #57
Tail Dragger
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Originally Posted by Dave in MN View Post
Chris,
The aluminum foil method works for Babbitt bearings but not so well with insert bearings. The use of Plastigage, as Terry Burtz suggests in his engine building guide, with the insert and shaft fully oiled is the proper method for checking the oil clearance for this engine. Never dry!
I will be starting to de-bur and clean mine this weekend. I expect it to go together without issues.
Good Day!
Oil was applied to surfaces during initial assembly, torqueing and plastiguage inspection. Additional lubrication was added prior to final assembly. nothing was assembled or measured dry.
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Old 04-17-2021, 12:15 PM   #58
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Very well documented Tail Dragger ! This is a good heads up for everyone. I'm sometime away from putting mine together, and knowing about the caps that won't be missed for sure. I'll check my Clevite bearings for the variability you observed. Terry, kudos for managing the situation professionally. I'm wondering about the platigauge results though. Especially main 5.
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Old 04-17-2021, 12:27 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tail Dragger View Post
Oil was applied to surfaces during initial assembly, torqueing and plastiguage inspection. Additional lubrication was added prior to final assembly. nothing was assembled or measured dry.
I'm sure that Dave was looking at you 'dry' remarks, that you made in yesterdays comments at 11:41 entry...as was I.

Assembly of this puzzle (engine) is a detail oriented operation. Even professional auto technicians make (expensive) mistakes. Don't hesitate to have others help you to inspect what you've done.

One missing piece of this puzzle can ruin all.
Good luck !
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Old 04-17-2021, 12:40 PM   #60
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

What is the cost of this new Model A engine?
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