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Old 04-01-2021, 01:09 AM   #21
buckwild 27
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

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Originally Posted by hardtimes View Post
Hey J,
You’re correct!
The flywheel is a 30 lb. It is what is sold with the engine kit. Said to be balanced to the crank set up.
I believe they're all balanced separately so you can change out any part and it wouldn't throw off everything.
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Old 04-01-2021, 01:39 AM   #22
hardtimes
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

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I believe they're all balanced separately so you can change out any part and it wouldn't throw off everything.
I did some checking.
I agree with you !
GREAT equipment !!

Last edited by hardtimes; 04-01-2021 at 01:41 AM. Reason: Xxxxxx
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Old 04-01-2021, 01:41 AM   #23
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

buckwild 27,

You are correct,

All of the new engine parts are balanced separately, and any new part balanced separately can be substituted.

Match marks are not needed because every part is balanced separately.

Instead of balancing parts separately, rebuilding shops save time to maximize profit by balancing an assembly. This requires match marks on every part for proper reassembly.

If any part of the assembly is changed, the complete assembly of parts needs to be rebalanced as an assembly and new match marks are needed.
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Old 04-03-2021, 11:53 AM   #24
Dan McEachern
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Just a shout out to Terry for staying with his project over the years. A lesser person would have thrown in the towel years ago. Stand tall Terry- you deserve it. Dan
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Old 04-03-2021, 11:55 AM   #25
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

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just a shout out to terry for staying with his project over the years. A lesser person would have thrown in the towel years ago. Stand tall terry- you deserve it. Dan
x2

j
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Old 04-03-2021, 04:04 PM   #26
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

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Just a shout out to Terry for staying with his project over the years. A lesser person would have thrown in the towel years ago. Stand tall Terry- you deserve it. Dan
I agree !
Already have your bronze gear set on a Jim B 5 bearing cam going into Terry’s new engine kit !!
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Old 04-03-2021, 04:12 PM   #27
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

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Just a shout out to Terry for staying with his project over the years. A lesser person would have thrown in the towel years ago. Stand tall Terry- you deserve it. Dan
X3! This engine kit is just magnificent! thank you Terry.
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Old 04-14-2021, 11:13 PM   #28
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Working on mine tonight. Seriously impressed with the quality and excited to get it running. Everything is ready to go, just waiting on a cam, head and flywheel. Only “issue” I’m having is that I thought I cleaned out all the sand from the water jacket but after driving the valve guides in with an air hammer, I broke more free....lots more. Any tricks to get it all out?
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Old 04-15-2021, 06:46 AM   #29
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

I am hearing report that there is quite a bit of loose sand in the water jacket and swarf in the oil passages making a thorough cleaning essential. It's not that I would assemble an engine without a thorough cleaning and I don't expect these new engines to be ready to assemble. What are the experiences over there on that issue. I'm considering a sealer of some sort in the water jacket to capture the grit.
Comments/experiences please.
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Old 04-15-2021, 01:48 PM   #30
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Completed about 6 cycles of running a coat hanger in the passages, hosing for 2-3 minutes, compressed air, heat gun to dry, and compressed air again. There’s still a little more sand coming loose each time but I think I got the majority of it. A reputable individual with first hand experience with this motor said to run it, shouldn’t hurt anything. I ran a rifle cleaning brush through the oil passages with some solvent and got nothing, so that’s good. Got the main seal today and will be installing the pistons and crank. The thrust bearings absolutely needed sanding to fit the crank and achieve proper end play. The flathead screws that secure the thrust bearings are slightly proud of the thrust bearing surface and need filing down. Pictures coming soon. Not trying to hijack the thread, just thought I’d share my experience.
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Old 04-15-2021, 04:43 PM   #31
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

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Completed about 6 cycles of running a coat hanger in the passages, hosing for 2-3 minutes, compressed air, heat gun to dry, and compressed air again. There’s still a little more sand coming loose each time but I think I got the majority of it. A reputable individual with first hand experience with this motor said to run it, shouldn’t hurt anything. I ran a rifle cleaning brush through the oil passages with some solvent and got nothing, so that’s good. Got the main seal today and will be installing the pistons and crank. The thrust bearings absolutely needed sanding to fit the crank and achieve proper end play. The flathead screws that secure the thrust bearings are slightly proud of the thrust bearing surface and need filing down. Pictures coming soon. Not trying to hijack the thread, just thought I’d share my experience.
I understand Terry is aware of the issue with the screws standing proud in the thrust rings and is including the correct ones with each motor. Some grit in the water jacket shouldn't be the end of the world but junk in the oil ways is another matter.
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Old 04-15-2021, 10:53 PM   #32
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Got the crank and pistons in tonight, what an ordeal, The Clevite CB-745P STD bearings DO NOT sit flush with the surface of the saddle or caps. There's an interference fit when trying to set the bearing caps on the crank. I absolutely could not rotate the crank by hand the first time I installed only bearing caps 1 and 5 just hand tight. I realized right away there was an issue and got on the phone. I was able to get some official numbers to check and ask some questions. After getting off the phone, I checked the journal DIA and bore, both were within spec, must be the bearings.

With oversized bearings being suspect (circumference not thickness), I used my table saw as a flat surface and 400 grit sandpaper to "file" the ends down of each bearing, reducing their half circumferences. I also used a file to take off corners that may be interfering with the studs (yes I was using the correct studs) on bearing caps 1 and 3. 6 hours later, the crank could be rotated by hand with all caps torqued down to 55 ft-lbs. It's not silky but it'll do considering the crank can be rotated with a moderate force using a few fingers.

It's important to note that 2 of the caps didn't have a large enough reliefs cut for the notches in the bearings, requiring the bearing notch to be filed down slightly. This wasn't a big ordeal and was easy to spot/correct.

On to pistons/con rods. They went in beautifully. Going from hand tight to torque, I did notice additional resistance but it wasn't bad.

Full disclosure.....I am not an engine guy by any means. This is 1 of 3 engines I've ever built/rebuilt. I'm used to things just going together so this was indeed a bit frustrating but given the specialty of the motor, I'm not upset about running into issues. I will say, the manual could be a bit better with more concise step by step instructions and images. I'm absolutely looking forward to getting this thing running and can't wait to finish the car.
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Old 04-16-2021, 12:16 AM   #33
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Taildrager,

Thanks for your comments.

With your "screen" name, are you planning to use the "New Engine" in an airplane?

Since this is the 3rd engine that you have worked on, do you have someone that can help you? Your helper should be familiar with '60s and newer engines.

Regarding the flat head screws to hold the thrust bearings, Syncro909 is correct, the ones from China had thick heads and they were replaced with thin head screws. I know that all engines distributed in the USA and Canada had thin head screws substituted and that our distributors in Australia and Europe knew of the problem before distribution.

Regarding your main bearing insert problem, the half-shells are not round before assembly and they should protrude above the parting line. Hand tightening main caps 1 and 5 is not enough pressure to force the insert half-shells to become circular and that is why the crankshaft was hard to turn. The half-shells become round and the equivalent of a press-fit when torqued to 55 lb-ft.

After getting off the phone, I'm happy that the main bearing bore and crankshaft journal diameters of the "New Engine" were within specification.

By removing material from the ends of the inserts with 400 grit sandpaper on the table of your saw, you have destroyed your inserts. When torqued to 55 lb-ft, there is not enough material on the end of the insert to force it to become round and the equivalent of a press fit. The only thing keeping your inserts from spinning in the cylinder block are the bearing tabs. This is not good. A spun bearing will damage the cylinder block.

Fortunately, inserts with larger outside diameters are available, but to use these, the cylinder block bores need to be enlarged.

The connecting rods use the same insert, journal diameter, and housing diameter. I'm curious as to why there were no problems and happy that everything fits.

Terry Burtz
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Old 04-16-2021, 12:37 AM   #34
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

The way the inserts stand proud of the block is what we call "crush". Maybe you guys use the same term but Terry is right, they should be about 0.003 or 4" high so that when the cap is torqued down, they are forced into the block. That serves two purposes - to make them round and help stop them spinning in the block. There should be nothing between the cast iron of the block and the inserts.
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Old 04-16-2021, 01:32 AM   #35
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

If I may, I would like to add as I was taught and have built more engines that I can remember in the past, but each and every engine I have put together I checked clearance with plastic gage. Every parts store that I know of carries it. I don’t like to have to drive everywhere chasing down simple things like this and sealers that are needed so I just order most of what I can from Amazon and have it the next day usually.

Another thing I would like to comment on, download the guides from Terry’s website, modelaengine.com. Those guides are much more complete.

Terry has done a fantastic job engineering and following up on this engine. I have always gotten answers from him if I asked. To me that means a lot and I certainly appreciate what he has done for us.
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Old 04-16-2021, 02:31 AM   #36
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Bearing crush is very important and checked by installing the bolt or bolts on only one side of the cap, whereupon the gap left on the opposite side between the cap faces can be measured with feeler gauges and compared with the crush specifications. Usually about 2 to 5 thou. Removing the crush will do exact,y what Terry says. And theni this case new soft plastigauge will give a false bearing clearance because it will crush without the shell being forced against the cap - the shell not being rounded by correct crush.
Old stifF plastigauge can give a different result here by partly forcing the shell into the cap before the plastic yields and flattens out.
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Old 04-16-2021, 08:51 AM   #37
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

As SAJ says, Plasigauge gets hard over time, always use fresh & soft. I had some old, hard actually put a dent in my babbitt.
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Old 04-16-2021, 09:45 AM   #38
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For clarification. I did torque 1 & 5 to 55 ft-lbs before removing to file. The crank was locked up and could not be turned by hand. Please advise what the expectation should be when correctly installing all bearings with torque. How much force should be required to rotate the crank?

My process:
The gentleman I learned from had me put bearings in on the furthermost location. In this case 1 and 5. Add lubrication, set on caps, LIGHTLY tap the caps with a deadblow to seat them, draw down bolts snugly, slightly rotate crank 1/4 turn to ensure no glaring issues, torque bolts. From there turn the crank feeling for resistance. Double check end play, check run out on exposed journals when rotating crank. If all checks out, pull crank and install remaining bearings.

Last edited by Tail Dragger; 04-16-2021 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 04-16-2021, 11:07 AM   #39
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Tail dragger, As Terry and others have said "crush" is imperative to make the bearings round and tight in the block. If I were you I would get a new set of bearings and start over. I think the other part number is 2020CP if I remember correctly? Sometimes a different set of bearings can make a difference. Another set of eyes might help too especially if they are "pro". My engine count is north of 500, may be even a thousand ?? And yes I have done A's for pietenpol (sp?) airplane. Rick.
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Old 04-16-2021, 11:18 AM   #40
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Looking for 2020CP bearings as I type this. I'd love the opportunity to hang an A motor on an Air Camper.
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