Model A Town Car?

[barry022]

Is this a Model A Town Car?


https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...code=undefined

[jb-ob]

Yes tis, but in current condition, you need to provide a note from your Cardio Doctor. before viewing.

[Bob Johnson]

Yes that is the 1930 Town Car in New York. It has been for sale for many years.



Bob Johnson

[ronn]

Last asking 50,000. a real bargain!

[Jordan]

I messaged the seller. I guess she is listing for her brother. She said she thinks he's wanting 40,000 for that one.

[ronn]

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price drop- lol


only the body is original- chassis belongs to another


please go back and read the thread on this- interesting info.

[todd3131]

Is it still for sale?

[ronn]

has been for sale for many years.............

[Gene F]

Just way too much... By the time they come down the thing will likely be rotted away. Hard to find parts for specialty vehicles. People always think they have a gold mine. Let em restore it and then try and sell it. Then they will come down off that high-horse. Don't mean to be coarse, but I have a differing opinion. Sorry

[todd3131]

what is it worth? 25 or 30?

[ronn]

what is it worth? 25 or 30?



you have to understand that the body was found at a dump in about 1965. all of the small parts are gone. You would most likely need another car to stand next to it to duplicate all that is missing. As said, the chassis is a random one, though several of these cars have the wrong motor etc.


25-30k would be generous. you would have 100k into this in a heartbeat.
might be better off trying to buy an original when one comes up.
I toyed with this about 7 years ago and realized life is too short for all of the projects I already have. BTW- I did go see it.

[Scott NY]

I looked at this a long time ago along with a couple of the other A's he had, yes the Town car was basically just the body, I do think it finally did get sold

[todd3131]

I was looking at a 31 lincoln town car in chicago that was all there but the owner passed and I can't find out what happened to the car so I was thinking this might be a good alternative in my retirement years

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Gene F

Just way too much... By the time they come down the thing will likely be rotted away. Hard to find parts for specialty vehicles. People always think they have a gold mine. Let em restore it and then try and sell it. Then they will come down off that high-horse. Don't mean to be coarse, but I have a differing opinion. Sorry

Gene, how would YOU establish a fair-market value for something like this? If you wanted one, how often do you find one that is for sale?



To me, it really is inconsequential whether this body is on the original frame or not. Equally, it does not matter the condition of the body wood or whether it has missing parts. My reasoning is, most of the chassis parts will be substituted with mint or NOS parts anyway when someone is restoring a vehicle of this caliber. The same with the body wood, ...it doesn't matter whether the infrastructure wood is sound or rotten as a car of this caliber is going to have new wood made. Terry Deters is currently restoring 3 of these, and friend of mine quoted him as saying that all three cars were slightly different. That is believable on a quasi hand-built body.

As far as missing stuff goes, nothing on that body is 'un-makeable' for someone who has the skillset and resources to make it happen. There are enough restored 140s around that dimensions for any missing piece(s) can be readily sourced so a person could fabricate them. Realistically, if a restorer gave $25k for that car, -then spent another $35k for parts & materials doing all the work themselves, they would not be upside down in this car. In comparison, look at a typical Fordor vs. this car and compare what a full restoration would entail. It would not be equal across the board, but very similar. The value at the end would definitely be skewed towards the town car.

The biggest issue I see with this particular car is most restorers do not have the capability (mindset, skillset, & resources) in their garage to do the restoration. IMHO, it really would/should not take a garage full of expensive tools to pull this off either.

[jb-ob]

Since currently there are three Town Cars for sale, $mart money would buy one finished.

[BrianH]

Where are these three Town Cars for sale advertised?
Thank you

[Gene F]

I somewhat agree with you. However, I must say that any time I hire work out I have a 50-50 chance of being dissatisfied.

You and I both know that more often than not you end up upspide-down on a restoration. Guess it's all how much we can stomach to a point...

[mercman from oz]

1930 Model A Ford Town Car - a very rare car, but for it to be saved, the owner would have to drop the price substantially.

[mercman from oz]

I saw this 1929 Ford Model A Town Car on display at the California Automobile Museum, Sacramento, California a few years back.
A very nice and desirable old Ford.

[Brad in Germany]

Here's a YouTube video slide show, from 2010, with some more photos of this Town Car:

https://youtu.be/Ax7DiHIr3Xg

Brad in Maryland

[ronn]

also one should realize that this is a 1930


I believe only one other 1930 exists. with that said, and what Brent has said, much of this car will never be considered an "authentic" town car. you could almost start from scratch and be better off. when you go to resell one day- the facts are already out there as to what this is. and therein is why nobody has tackled this to date.


BTW still for sale-

[barry022]

The slide show adds a lot of clarity to the condition of this Model A Town Car and explains the reason it remains for sale and will continue to do until the seller realizes the market value of the vehicle is far removed from his current asking price.

[Mister Moose]

Originally Posted by barry022

The slide show adds a lot of clarity to the condition of this Model A Town Car and explains the reason it remains for sale and will continue to do until the seller realizes the market value of the vehicle is far removed from his current asking price.

This. Many times it takes a while to find the right buyer, so lowering your price too soon is your loss. However as long as this has been on the market I think that time has passed. At this point legitimate buyers have been missed.

[ronn]

well, there is only one, so rarity is there- but this one is a horse of a different color.


with just a body- would this in the end be considered a repro or??????????


also, how would it affect the final selling price compared to a completely original model?


I had this discussion with a few guys on the AACA concerning early motorcycles. Apparently if you just have an engine only, some guys still consider that to be a pretty big deal and there is still considerable value.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Gene F

I somewhat agree with you. However, I must say that any time I hire work out I have a 50-50 chance of being dissatisfied.

You and I both know that more often than not you end up upspide-down on a restoration. Guess it's all how much we can stomach to a point...

Two thoughts in this...

I have never understood the mindset of some folks who feels like they must not have more invested in an old car than what they can get out of it. So many other recreational items in our lives find us spending more than our ROI however that does not stop folks from participating. Tally up the costs of taking up the sport of golfing, or buy a fishing boat and all the gear, -or even factor in the costs of buying camping gear and the costs associated with going camping. Rarely in any of those other recreational venues do you find someone saying they bought all the gear, used it for a couple of years and then sold all of it and recovered all my money and then some. If they did, then the likelihood is someone with dishonest with someone along the way.


Second, if you have a 50-50 chance of being dissatisfied with the work performed by someone else, -chances are you did not give them the correct amount of latitude (e.g.: time, budget, realistic expectation) to meet your expectations. In the case of this Town Car, I did not mention anything about outsourcing the restoration. Learn to do the majority of the work yourself, and only outsource minor tasks such as engine rebuilding or brightwork. Learn to do the woodwork, bodywork, upholstery, etc. in your own garage.




Jim, my late Father always told me 'A good deal is not a good deal if you cannot afford it!". In the case of buying one of TK's cars from his estate, a buyer must come up with a very large sum of money all at once whereas purchasing an unrestored car for much less than the total restoration cost, -and then amortizing the remaining restoration costs over 5+ years allows someone to be a Town Car owner than might otherwise not be able to afford one. The skillset and satisfaction that someone would obtain restoring that T/C vs. buying one already restored would be a much better investment for them IMO.

Originally Posted by ronn

well, there is only one, so rarity is there- but this one is a horse of a different color.

with just a body- would this in the end be considered a repro or??????????

also, how would it affect the final selling price compared to a completely original model?

I had this discussion with a few guys on the AACA concerning early motorcycles. Apparently if you just have an engine only, some guys still consider that to be a pretty big deal and there is still considerable value.

Ronn, it still would be considered the real-deal IMO. According to AACA, it would likely qualify as the real deal also. For some, it won't matter as far as price due to the rarity. To some, even if it brings 10% less because it is a clone, it still is not that big of a deal.

[todd3131]

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I like the story with this car and I think like Brent said this would be well worth the time and fun. buying someone else's finished may be smarter but I find restoring them and making it my own is much more rewarding.

[ronn]

go at it todd and keep us posted. these arent easy sellers btw.


the father did the antique car community a service by hoarding lots and lots of junk, but most of it is just that. hadnt he done that, all of this would have been crushed. I spoke with the Dad when he was alive. at the time of looking at this car, he had an L29 Cord and had just sold it for around 50k. a very complete and worthy car. there is also a Canadian Brooks steam car chassis there somewhere. The only one left in the world knowingly. but ultimately, most of the yard is full of junk.

[ronn]

Brent, thank you for your opinion. I accepted that the car might have 60% of value when finished and not as high as you state. In large part that is what made it an upside down project for me.
on the previous thread from a few years back, I ended up buying a 1931 pierce arrow for much much less. That to me is a "real" towncar and I virtually had to do nothing to it.


I guess I am a lazy man.

[todd3131]

I don't and won't have Facebook can someone provide me with there contact information?

we'll see what happens I have known people like this all my life and they tend to let them rust than take a dime less

[rotorwrench]

What I've always found amazing is how many folks back in the day purchased Ford model A cars when they had the money to purchase much more expensive cars. The model A design was like a baby Lincoln. They were smart looking designs and that's why so many of them are still around. There will always be someone who wants the rarer models like the Town Car, the Traveler's Wagon, and the Town Car Delivery. They are just novel enough for some collectors to spare no expense. Folks that have the where with all will look for the best example and the rough cars will be the last choice.

[ronn]

todd- your second sentence is correct- waving greenbacks doesnt mean a thing.


be ready to pay if you really want it.

[todd3131]

ronn,
I know of a 69 shelby convertible that is still sitting and I first saw the car in 74 guy has been offered way more than it is worth and still has it . I also know of a boss 429 but he knows it's value and will sell it at some point to pay for assisted living I imagine. I really need to think about this I really want one last project and what does that look like I have always wanted a 400 a but wouldn't be more inclined to look for a. complete car

[henry's 31]

It looks like a very challenging restoration.

[ronn]

Todd, the 400 and 180s are two that Ive been looking for. the prices are dropping and they are far more doable then this town car- not that anything cant be done.


the town car has been on my lottery ticket list for about 6-7 years, but wont happen
if I dont hit. We all draw the line at some point and I dont want to get bogged down in a "dream".


already done that a few times and it led me on a road to nowhere.......


reality is I have plenty of cars to enjoy. need to stop looking over the horizon.

[eystein]

"Currently restoring 3 of these" ??

Are they unrestored/hitherto unknown ones, or are they some of the ones that have been known for a long time being given a re-restoration ?

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Gene, how would YOU establish a fair-market value for something like this? If you wanted one, how often do you find one that is for sale?



To me, it really is inconsequential whether this body is on the original frame or not. Equally, it does not matter the condition of the body wood or whether it has missing parts. My reasoning is, most of the chassis parts will be substituted with mint or NOS parts anyway when someone is restoring a vehicle of this caliber. The same with the body wood, ...it doesn't matter whether the infrastructure wood is sound or rotten as a car of this caliber is going to have new wood made. Terry Deters is currently restoring 3 of these, and friend of mine quoted him as saying that all three cars were slightly different. That is believable on a quasi hand-built body.

As far as missing stuff goes, nothing on that body is 'un-makeable' for someone who has the skillset and resources to make it happen. There are enough restored 140s around that dimensions for any missing piece(s) can be readily sourced so a person could fabricate them. Realistically, if a restorer gave $25k for that car, -then spent another $35k for parts & materials doing all the work themselves, they would not be upside down in this car. In comparison, look at a typical Fordor vs. this car and compare what a full restoration would entail. It would not be equal across the board, but very similar. The value at the end would definitely be skewed towards the town car.

The biggest issue I see with this particular car is most restorers do not have the capability (mindset, skillset, & resources) in their garage to do the restoration. IMHO, it really would/should not take a garage full of expensive tools to pull this off either.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by eystein

"Currently restoring 3 of these" ??

Are they unrestored/hitherto unknown ones, or are they some of the ones that have been known for a long time being given a re-restoration ?

These are owned by well-known Model-A hobbyists and have been in their private collections.

[eystein]

Brent, perhaps I should rephrase the question. The last overview that I personnally have seen of how many town cars are in existence is that given in «The Restorer, March/April 1987!!!! Are each of these 3 all one of those described in the restorer article, or are they «new» cars discovered afterwards. Alternatively is there an updated overview like the one in the 1987 article ?

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

These are owned by well-known Model-A hobbyists and have been in their private collections.

[Bob Johnson]

One of the three Town Car that Terry is working on is mine. Since it was hidden in a barn in Denmark in 1987 it was not included in the 1987 article. Some of the owners of Model A Town Cars tend to not want to advertise their ownership. As a general rule I do not share information about other Town Cars unless I have permission from the owners. I know of the whereabouts of most of the know Model A Town Cars. My count is around 25. However a few of those did not start out as Town Cars. Most of the "reproductions" are fairly easily identified by a trained eye. However I know of one that would fool almost everyone.



There has been many changes in ownership since the 1987 article. There is a chance that there may be an update article sometime soon (no promises).


Bob Johnson

[eystein]

Bob, That’s interesting to hear. Hopefully with two other TC’s in the shop, he can make you an exact replica of the partition wall that you are missing.

Yesterday, I was counting over the 1987 article, excluding the one that they described as being crafted from a town sedan and the Aalholm one which obviously is a fake. Adding yours and the one subject of this thread I came to 25. Comparing to your figure, that would suggest that only your car and the one in this thread have surfaced since 1987. Can you confirm?

I do believe I saw that there was one referred to as «the pelican» because it had been modified with a very long visor. I could not readily identify any of the cars in the 1987 article as being that car. So perhaps that means there is one more ?

Originally Posted by Bob Johnson

One of the three Town Car that Terry is working on is mine. Since it was hidden in a barn in Denmark in 1987 it was not included in the 1987 article. Some of the owners of Model A Town Cars tend to not want to advertise their ownership. As a general rule I do not share information about other Town Cars unless I have permission from the owners. I know of the whereabouts of most of the know Model A Town Cars. My count is around 25. However a few of those did not start out as Town Cars. Most of the "reproductions" are fairly easily identified by a trained eye. However I know of one that would fool almost everyone.



There has been many changes in ownership since the 1987 article. There is a chance that there may be an update article sometime soon (no promises).


Bob Johnson

[Dick Carne]

Hi Ronn -

[Dick Carne]

Hi Ronn - With reference to the 1930 Town Car being discussed, I believe that there is a third one out there somewhere. Back in the 1960's and early 1970's Wendell Townsend of Atlanta restored a 1930 model; this was a different car from the one that Wayne Carini's father had that was shown on one of his episodes on "Chasing Classic Cars". Then with this old gentleman, this would make three. Wendell sold his Town Car back in the late 1970's as I recall, but he had owned it for years and restored it (after having caught on fire) years ago. I have no idea where any of these cars are now, but this would suggest a third one out there.

[Bob Johnson]

"I do believe I saw that there was one referred to as «the pelican» because it had been modified with a very long visor. I could not readily identify any of the cars in the 1987 article as being that car. So perhaps that means there is one more "



The "pelican" is the one owned by Bill Jones in the 1987 Restorer.


There is also one in South America and a Dutch one recently sold in a huge auction.



Bob

[Brad in Germany]

Bob,

Here is the "Dutch one" that I believe you are referring to, which used to be in the huge Den Hartogh Ford Museum in the Netherlands before they sold everything at auction:





Here is the link to that auction lot from the Bonhams Auction of the museum contents....including lots more photos of the inside of that car as well: https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/25077/lot/235/

It sold in that auction for $26,045.

I had a chance to get a close look at that car while I had a Model A in storage in their upstairs private warehouse. It used to be a Fordor and is very "creatively done".

It is now in a private collection in Germany.

Brad in Maryland

[ronn]

thank you Dick. good information.


Yes I remember the one above selling and the back top is incorrectly shaped.
still a nice looking car, but wouldnt put much value on it.
With that said- I sure wouldnt mind owning it!

[eystein]

Here is the article about "the pelican".

Never heard of the one in South America. Would be nice to know more about that one, if you are at liberty to share.

Originally Posted by Bob Johnson

"I do believe I saw that there was one referred to as «the pelican» because it had been modified with a very long visor. I could not readily identify any of the cars in the 1987 article as being that car. So perhaps that means there is one more "



The "pelican" is the one owned by Bill Jones in the 1987 Restorer.


There is also one in South America and a Dutch one recently sold in a huge auction.



Bob

[eystein]

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As you say, Brad, it is only a modified town sedan. I visited the museum just before it closed, and it was an OK way to spend a day, but I suspect that I would have enjoyed it more if I had known less about A's They also claimed to have a TCD, which was nothing more than a chopped up deluxe delivery. Most of the cars had been given 1970s-style "messtorations"

It makes me angry when I see the "expert" from Bonhams writing about the "town car" in the auction catalog "This is an honest and correct version of one of the rarest of all Fords from this period" I am thinking of the poor buyer who perhaps thought that he bought the real thing.

Originally Posted by Brad in Germany

Bob,

Here is the "Dutch one" that I believe you are referring to, which used to be in the huge Den Hartogh Ford Museum in the Netherlands before they sold everything at auction:





Here is the link to that auction lot from the Bonhams Auction of the museum contents....including lots more photos of the inside of that car as well: https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/25077/lot/235/

It sold in that auction for $26,045.

I had a chance to get a close look at that car while I had a Model A in storage in their upstairs private warehouse. It used to be a Fordor and is very "creatively done".

It is now in a private collection in Germany.

Brad in Maryland

[mercman from oz]

This 1929 Ford Model A Town Sedan is on display at Gilmores Car Museum, Hickory Corners, Michigan. What a beautiful car.

[barry022]

It sold in that auction for $26,045.



I don't think so.

[Joop]

Maybe this helps

LOT 235
1928 FORD MODEL 140A TOWN CAR
Sold for € 21,850 (US$ 26,058) inc. premium
FOLLOW
Den Hartogh Sale
23 Jun 2018, 11:00 CEST

Hillegom

[todd3131]

the price it sold for reflects what it is

[TerryH]

Here is the 1929 Model A Town Car from the Lyon Automotive Collection in Southern California.....once owned by the Harrah Collection.
Question: why did this image import as a thumbnail? It is much larger than this normally......

[ronn]

Terry- when one clicks on it- it becomes larger then life itself.........

[mercman from oz]

Here is a larger picture of the 1929 Model A Town Car from the Lyon Automotive Collection in Southern California.....once owned by the Harrah Collection. Very nice.

[Chris in WNC]

Originally Posted by mercman from oz

Here is a larger picture of the 1929 Model A Town Car from the Lyon Automotive Collection in Southern California.....once owned by the Harrah Collection. Very nice.

Would like to see a rear view of this car- looks rounder it the rear roof edge than other town cars.
Is this just how the photo angle makes it look?
Don't believe Harrah would have had it if it were a clone- he was very particular about correctness.......

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by Chris in WNC

Would like to see a rear view of this car- looks rounder it the rear roof edge than other town cars. is this just how the photo angle makes it look?
Don't believe Harrah would have had it if it were a clone- he was very particular about correctness.......

I remember making a pilgrimage from the SF Bay Area to Reno (well, Sparks actually) in the late 60s to visit the Harrah's collection. I remember seeing a Town Car, don't remember the details but it could very well have been this one. Boy what a spectacular collection! I recall when that collection was liquidated in the mid-80's after Bill Harrah died, but apparently some of the cars are still in Reno at the National Automobile Museum (I haven't visited that one, has anyone?) Hard to imagine anything like the old Harrah's collection, though. A '29 Station Wagon that I was working on (not mine, regrettably) got sold to Harrah.

There is also a pretty nice car collection in the SF Bay Area at the Blackhawk Museum (in the East Bay). Last time I was there was probably 20+ years ago with my Dad (gone now), I don't remember too many Model A's.

JayJay

[joncrane]

My Town Car Story
I was 13 years old and a member of the NJ Model A Club out of Eatontown NJ. It was a MAFCA club. I lived in Pt Pleasant Beach NJ and found a Model A Town Car alongside a shed at Johnson Boat Works in Bay Head, NJ. I tried to buy it buy could not get in touch with the owner etc. I told a club member Herman Oheme from Belmar NJ about the car and he tracked down the owner, made an offer, had to sweeten the offer because the owner had bought four new tires. Mr. Ohem hauled it to his home to restore. The car was owned by someone in the Johnson and Johnson pharmacutical family. Mr. Ohme had restored several cars in the late 50's and early 60's and pretty much knew the the hobby. Nice guy. Mr. Ohme completed the frame restoration but body was very rough. The car had sat between two boat sheds and water ran from the flat roof's down onto the car. Mr. Ohme became sick and before he died he sold the car, his two door and a roadster that was also under restoration. Rumor was the town car sold for the unbelievable sum of $4000! There was something unique with the car as the firewall stamped date was several days BEFORE the Ford introduction of the cars. It must have been one of the first Town Cars. I forget the date and will defer to the Town Car owners. Car went to Staten Island and was never finished. Showed up in Hemmings for sale in the late 70's. Last I heard it had gone to Florida and the restoration was completed.

I bought my first Model A from Mr. Ohme's widow when I was 15. A 1930 Coupe paid $275 for it and it ran fine. Quarter panels were rusted and I played with it until I graduated from High Schools.

[TerryH]

Chris——I do have a photo showing the rear.....I will post it later today, as well as an interior shot of the rear seating area.

[Brad in Germany]

From a 1971 issue of the Restorer:



Brad in Maryland

[TerryH]

Here are some more photos of the Model A Town Car from the Lyon Collection in Southern California. My wife worked for Gen. Lyon for over 30 years, so I got access to his fabulous collection many times over the years. Besides the Town Car, he also has a Model A Woodie Station Wagon, and a Model A Roadster Pickup Truck. In the 1980's, Gen. Lyon made a huge purchase of many cars from the Harrah collection.....you can google and get more information, but as I remember it, it was over $30 million dollars worth. He was really after a number of wonderful Duesenbergs and other cars. I have no information of the provenance of this Town Car, but am quite sure it is an original and not a created one......

[ronn]

wow Brad- 10k in 71........... that was a lot of coin.


great story Jon.......... I had the same about two Cords in 1974. one was a superchged phaeton and the other a Westchester.

very cool dreams.......

[Chris in WNC]

Originally Posted by TerryH

Here are some more photos of the Model A Town Car from the Lyon Collection in Southern California. My wife worked for Gen. Lyon for over 30 years, so I got access to his fabulous collection many times over the years. Besides the Town Car, he also has a Model A Woodie Station Wagon, and a Model A Roadster Pickup Truck. In the 1980's, Gen. Lyon made a huge purchase of many cars from the Harrah collection.....you can google and get more information, but as I remember it, it was over $30 million dollars worth. He was really after a number of wonderful Duesenbergs and other cars. I have no information of the provenance of this Town Car, but am quite sure it is an original and not a created one......

thanks Terry.
from this angle it looks as it should.
did not think a clone would be in Harrah's collection.

please, everybody, put your LOCATION in your profiles.....

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Chris in WNC

thanks Terry.
from this angle it looks like it should.
did not think a clone would be in Harrah's collection.

please, everybody, put your LOCATION in your profiles.....

Chris, in actuality Bill Harrah had many brass-era and orphan cars that were indeed cloned. One example was a very rare Ford Model-K Touring that was converted into an even rarer Roadster during the restoration. Many custom bodies were recreated too on classics and on rare cars. (Think of Jay Leno's garage today) One other example of cloning I remember about is of an early Seldon engine and chassis that was found deserted which had been used as a winch to pull mining cars out of mines. The body and sheetmetal had been removed and it was only a chassis. I remember them saying they replicated the fenders and the body parts in their shops with nothing but pictures to go off of.

During the 60s and 70s, my dad knew several guys that worked in Harrah's shops. In the early 1970s I would listen to those guys tell my dad what they were working in Harrah's shops and how they were doing it. By today's standards, it seems simple to me but back then it was all about hiring artisans and having a thick enough wallet to pay for the talent needed. Back then talent was more prevalent than money to pay for their services on old cars. It seems just the opposite for most restorers today as the available talent to actually restore old cars has seemingly dwindled.

[ronn]

as quoted from one of the books written on Bill Harrah..............


gentleman was standing in a restaurant and another fella yelled out- Bill congrats on the "new" Bugatti royal you just bought!


Bills answer was- which one? he owned 2 of the ultra rare of 7 created and bought them within a one week period!


that's money!!!!!!!!!!!

[TerryH]

Gen. Lyon also bought one of the Royale’s, had it for many years, then sold it to Volkswagen after they purchased Bugatti.

[Brad in Germany]

Originally Posted by Bob Johnson

One of the three Town Car that Terry is working on is mine. Since it was hidden in a barn in Denmark in 1987 it was not included in the 1987 article. Some of the owners of Model A Town Cars tend to not want to advertise their ownership. As a general rule I do not share information about other Town Cars unless I have permission from the owners. I know of the whereabouts of most of the know Model A Town Cars. My count is around 25. However a few of those did not start out as Town Cars. Most of the "reproductions" are fairly easily identified by a trained eye. However I know of one that would fool almost everyone.

There has been many changes in ownership since the 1987 article. There is a chance that there may be an update article sometime soon (no promises).

Bob Johnson

Bob: Is this your car by chance? This is a photo from the February 1931 issue of The Ford Times from the UK:



Odd the '28-'29 cowl and cowl lights, yet '30-'31 wheels, fenders, steering wheel(?) and headlights, and no bumpers. .....and not sure what is going on with the driver's compartment roof? Looks like they lowered the windshield height (looking at the top front door hinge) and/or removed that horizontal bar normally above the windshield.

Maybe it is a '29 body on a '30-'31 chassis? Could the body have been shipped from the US and then assembled on the '30 chassis in Denmark?

Brad in Maryand

[Chris in WNC]

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Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Chris, in actuality Bill Harrah had many brass-era and orphan cars that were indeed cloned. One example was a very rare Ford Model-K Touring that was converted into an even rarer Roadster during the restoration. Many custom bodies were recreated too on classics and on rare cars. (Think of Jay Leno's garage today) One other example of cloning I remember about is of an early Seldon engine and chassis that was found deserted which had been used as a winch to pull mining cars out of mines. The body and sheetmetal had been removed and it was only a chassis. I remember them saying they replicated the fenders and the body parts in their shops with nothing but pictures to go off of.

Thanks, Brent.
I spent a day at Harrah's collection while hitch-hiking cross country in 1974- it was a fantastic experience.
What I should have said is I don't think Harrah would have had an incorrect car in his collection. I know he was very OCD about them being correct after suffering some embarrasment when his first restored car had some errors. This let to his extensive research department and reference library,.

[Bob Johnson]

Brad,


That is definitely not my car. I have the Danish registration paper for the car. In 1931 my car was still owned by the original owner Vlad Pedersen of Odense. The windshield posts on my car was not lowered.


From what I can see in the picture it is a Ford factory built Town Car. All of the Town Car bodies were built by the Briggs company and shipped to the assembly plants where they were mounted on a chassis. It is possible that this Town Car body sat around in the Copenhagen plant until 1930 when it was finally put on a 1930 chassis. Ford did convert about 100 Town Car bodies to fit on 1930 chassis. However that required using 1930 front doors, cowls, hoods and radiators from 1930 Briggs Fordors. This one is not one of those. The upper hinge is the correct aluminum hinge for the 1929 Town Car. The front door has the single drop just below the window.



Bob Johnson

[mercman from oz]

Larger photos of the Model A Town Car from the Lyon Collection in Southern California.
What a beautiful car. Thanks for sharing.

[eystein]

I think your assumption that the body sat around until 1930, seems very plausible Bob.

Indeed a strange animal.

Originally Posted by Bob Johnson

Brad,


That is definitely not my car. I have the Danish registration paper for the car. In 1931 my car was still owned by the original owner Vlad Pedersen of Odense. The windshield posts on my car was not lowered.


From what I can see in the picture it is a Ford factory built Town Car. All of the Town Car bodies were built by the Briggs company and shipped to the assembly plants where they were mounted on a chassis. It is possible that this Town Car body sat around in the Copenhagen plant until 1930 when it was finally put on a 1930 chassis. Ford did convert about 100 Town Car bodies to fit on 1930 chassis. However that required using 1930 front doors, cowls, hoods and radiators from 1930 Briggs Fordors. This one is not one of those. The upper hinge is the correct aluminum hinge for the 1929 Town Car. The front door has the single drop just below the window.



Bob Johnson

[eystein]

Brad,

Add a 1930 hood. I wonder how they got that to fit....

Is it possible to determine if the radiator shell is 28/29 or 30/31. Are there any more pictures ?

Also, is it possible to make a 30/31 hood fit a 28/29 car by removing the hood shelves?

If so, they could have taken the 29 body, fitted it on the 30 chassis put on a leftover or service 29 radiator, removed the hood shelves and fitted the 30/31 hood...

If any more pictures could be found it would be most interesting.

Originally Posted by Brad in Germany

Bob: Is this your car by chance? This is a photo from the February 1931 issue of The Ford Times from the UK:



Odd the '28-'29 cowl and cowl lights, yet '30-'31 wheels, fenders, steering wheel(?) and headlights, and no bumpers. .....and not sure what is going on with the driver's compartment roof? Looks like they lowered the windshield height (looking at the top front door hinge) and/or removed that horizontal bar normally above the windshield.

Maybe it is a '29 body on a '30-'31 chassis? Could the body have been shipped from the US and then assembled on the '30 chassis in Denmark?

Brad in Maryand

[Shelbycsx]

The price was $20,000 2 years ago for this car

[Roadster62]

Did anyone save that 1930 Town Car that showed up at Reinbeck 40+ years ago? The one with a ton of brazed patch work? Bob

[Brad in Germany]

Originally Posted by Bob Johnson

One of the three Town Car that Terry is working on is mine. Since it was hidden in a barn in Denmark in 1987 it was not included in the 1987 article. ......

Bob Johnson

Hi Bob: How about this one.....maybe yours? This photo is from the April 1929 issue of The Ford Times (UK):



I guess this is just another one of the 12 assembled in Copenhagen, Denmark?

Brad in Maryland

[Oldbluoval]

Adding to Brent’s assessment and comments
In that 60-70’s era it was amazing as to what “came from
Ashes’
Often a chassis (rails only) was found and turned into “rare” autos Locomobiles, Flyers, Duesies...
The remainder of the drive train and a complete body was fabricated from new steel. New casings were made for engines tranny etc. Many were researched and built to original drawings....others were not. Yes the cost was tremendous
Is that really a vintage car? Not to me ...

[ronn]

Is that really a vintage car? Not to me ...





and if it was so well done that you didnt know.............?

[Oldbluoval]

I guess that would be a “tribute” car as they refer now.
Most brass era cars have so much reconstruction that most are mostly new and folks know it. That’s why I appreciate vintage original cars no matter what it is
There are still folks around that know differences and can tell what has been replaced.
It really wouldn’t matter to me ...1) can’t afford such 2) don’t want that if I could

[ronn]

as time moves on- less and less "experts" are out there and I would guess we are now at the point where many cant tell.


true story- someone I know restored a Mercer and took it to Hershey years ago and the judges said the car was "too good" to be original- and yet it was. so points were deducted.


same individual went back with a completely fake car and it passed with a win in its category............


I agree with your sentiment- but many times I dont know what I am looking at. in the high dollar cars, there is a lot of fudging.

[Oldbluoval]

I agree with your sentiment- but many times I dont know what I am looking at. in the high dollar cars, there is a lot of fudging.


Ubetcha! Lots ...but also lots of $$$$ is spent doing same!