The Ford Barn

40cpe · 02-06-2016, 05:35 PM

Has anyone measured the drop from the input line to the output line of the filter? The convenient location to take pressure readings is ahead of the filter.

When pre-lubing my engine I noticed about 10 # of pressure when the oil hit the filter and once it got to the engine it jumped to 50#. Makes me wonder if the running reading would be lower on the engine side of the filter. I'm considering drilling/tapping the 90 degree fitting going into the engine for my oil pressure sending line. Has anyone done it?

Ronnieroadster · 02-06-2016, 06:31 PM

I doubt there's any noticeable difference in readings before or after the filter. If you notice any pressure drop across the filter the cause is a poor filter design for this application the amount of holes around the outer ring of the filter is an area of concern I have seen some fram and AC filters with six very small holes these filters caused a long delay in seeing a reading on the oil pressure gauge. I always use Ford Motorcraft FL-1 A filters on this conversion their design has eight oval shaped holes for oil flow as well as a larger diameter center pipe which is 7/8 of an inch. Using the Motorcraft filters there's no delay in pressure readings.
So far I have a few hundred thousand miles on my 95 percent converted flatheads never experianced any lubrication issues with the proper filter and oil pump.

Ronnie · 02-06-2016, 07:02 PM

The down stream pressures in a normal running temp engine are always less than the upstream pressures.This will be observed when the oil is up to temp.This is referred to as pressure differential.The filters you mention are all very capable of fulfilling your needs.Remember all the filters out there you see in stores only have to meet the oem requirements,not exceed them.(some do both) Don't try and reinvent the system.As long as the supply lines are not reversed you will be good to go.In your statement about the center tube being larger would have nothing with pressures.The difference will always be less than the bypass valve setting for it to remain closed.I hope this helps.

R

40cpe · 02-06-2016, 07:39 PM

I do have the FL1A filter on it. Do OEM newer engines have the pressure sensor upstream or downstream of the filter? Anyone know? In a perfect world, I would rather see pressures my bearing see rather than what the filter sees.

Ronnie · 02-06-2016, 08:07 PM

Then in your final install put your gauge after the filter.As i stated at operating temp the differential pressure will be less than the bypass valve setting in order to keep the valve closed,that on average is somewhere between 7 to 12 lbs or so.

R

Ronnieroadster · 02-06-2016, 08:40 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronnie

The down stream pressures in a normal running temp engine are always less than the upstream pressures.This will be observed when the oil is up to temp.This is referred to as pressure differential.The filters you mention are all very capable of fulfilling your needs.Remember all the filters out there you see in stores only have to meet the oem requirements,not exceed them.(some do both) Don't try and reinvent the system.As long as the supply lines are not reversed you will be good to go.In your statement about the center tube being larger would have nothing with pressures.The difference will always be less than the bypass valve setting for it to remain closed.I hope this helps.

R

Actual experience with various filters on this conversion has shown me there is a big difference in the brand type of filter. Fords design with the larger center passage and superior design outer passages far exceed most gm type filters which have smaller inner and outer passages. Volume and flow with that you wont go wrong.

40cpe · 02-26-2016, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronnie

Then in your final install put your gauge after the filter.As i stated at operating temp the differential pressure will be less than the bypass valve setting in order to keep the valve closed,that on average is somewhere between 7 to 12 lbs or so.

R

I tapped the engine fitting to see the oil pressure on the "out" side of the remote filter with a FL1A filter installed. Temp was 160/180. The present reading is 10# less than when reading from the oil pump output port.

Ronnie · 02-26-2016, 05:21 PM

There is nothing wrong with that.

Fixed that pic for the guy's

R

JSeery · 02-26-2016, 05:55 PM

I want to know the oil pressure going into the engine, not what is coming out of the pump. That said, the pressure drop across the filter is not an issue as long as adequate oil pressure is feeding the engine.

Ronnieroadster · 02-26-2016, 05:58 PM

The 90 degree fittings your using are adding a lot of flow restriction to the oil system be careful. If you have more angled fittings on the filter end there's a great deal of restriction.
I have seen the results of bearing damage caused by four 90 degree 3/8 pipe thread fittings to 1/2 inch inside diameter oil lines the two oil lines had a combined total length of just over six feet. It was not a pretty picture.

40cpe · 02-26-2016, 08:02 PM

Sorry about the picture being upside down. It was straight on the preview. Ronnie, the filter end fittings are straight. I noticed the opening at the flared connection was small, about 1/4" (6 AN fittings) but I didn't measure them. The flared hose fittings have small passages in them, too. I don't see how to get larger openings being limited to 3/8" pipe threads in the engine. I'm using hydraulic fittings and lines and that is what the hydraulic shop recommended. Is there something better for the connecting lines?

Ronnieroadster · 02-26-2016, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40cpe

Sorry about the picture being upside down. It was straight on the preview. Ronnie, the filter end fittings are straight. I noticed the opening at the flared connection was small, about 1/4" (6 AN fittings) but I didn't measure them. The flared hose fittings have small passages in them, too. I don't see how to get larger openings being limited to 3/8" pipe threads in the engine. I'm using hydraulic fittings and lines and that is what the hydraulic shop recommended. Is there something better for the connecting lines?

Heres what I use which I feel would be much better for flow.
For fittigns I use barb type brass that have 3/8 pipe threads they are flared but they have an ID of .375 which I then open up to 421. This slight increase in size will not hurt the flare design for sealing. That .421 diameter is the size of the cross oil passage in the flathead block. This way there's no added restriction to at least what Ford designed for the passage in the block. The hose end of the fitting is for 1/2 inch ID hose.
I get all my fittings from Mc master Carr they are barbed for press on hose. The hose I use is from Aero Quip which is also avalible from Mcmaster its blue in color or black. The hose is good for 150 psi. The fittings and hose are common in the hydraulic field. Using these parts I make up the hose to whatever length I need myself.

Bored&Stroked · 02-26-2016, 11:08 PM

If you're going to need/use 45 or 90 degree fittings, then buy the high-flow versions that are designed for performance oiling systems. The fittings are not cheap, but they restrict the flow the least amount possible.

Here is the type of fitting I purchased from Jegs:

2-26-2016 10-59-49 PM.jpg

Here is an example on a 100% full-flow setup that I built (hidden inside of a Fram filter). I used -10 hoses as I wanted to minimize the restriction through the system. I also increased the oil fitting sizes on the back of the block to 3/8" NPT and used a 7/16 drill to bore-out the main horizontal oil return passage back into the block.

2015-11-07 18.31.35.jpg

Ol' Ron · 02-27-2016, 12:02 AM

My new remote filter has a gauge output on the engine side of the filter. I have an oil gauge in the glove box with a small gauge for the oil and temp as backup.

Ronnie · 02-27-2016, 12:27 AM

I don't see a problem with 10 lb difference in pressure.
What is pressure before filter and after? Also what are the pressures at start up cold engine?

R

mike42 · 02-27-2016, 04:34 PM

You know it's funny.....when I was a kid and had a 1950 Ford. I just started it up Summer or Winter and ran the hell of of it. Never a problem. Now we are all worried about so many different things and nursing these flatheads along ! It makes me chuckle....!

JSeery · 02-27-2016, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike42

You know it's funny.....when I was a kid and had a 1950 Ford. I just started it up Summer or Winter and ran the hell of of it. Never a problem. Now we are all worried about so many different things and nursing these flatheads along ! It makes me chuckle....!

I agree! BUT, it is a little more difficult to fix a screwup these days. Had a grandfather that told me he never maintained or fixed anything on the old Fords. He drove them until there was some issue then got rid of that one and got a replacement. Not that easy now days.

40cpe · 02-27-2016, 07:07 PM

It looks like I'm buying and education. I have 3/8" ID hose and it looks like Ronnie uses 1/2" and Bored & Stroked uses 5/8". I found 3/8 pipe to -8 fitting. I'll get everything mounted and then buy larger fittings and hoses.

The pressure ahead of the filter was 55# and 45#on the engine side with 10w-30 oil. The temp was 170 average between the two sides but the oil wasn't that warm. I'm TRYING not to run the engine until I get it in the car.

BillM · 02-27-2016, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40cpe

It looks like I'm buying and education. I have 3/8" ID hose and it looks like Ronnie uses 1/2" and Bored & Stroked uses 5/8". I found 3/8 pipe to -8 fitting. I'll get everything mounted and then buy larger fittings and hoses.

The pressure ahead of the filter was 55# and 45#on the engine side with 10w-30 oil. The temp was 170 average between the two sides but the oil wasn't that warm. I'm TRYING not to run the engine until I get it in the car.

It would be interesting to see the pressures after you change the fittings and hoses.

40cpe · 02-27-2016, 08:53 PM

I measured the ID if the -6 fittings I have, it is .271. The rear main already has it's oil, so the filtered oil goes straight to the valley tube, less what is lost at the fuel pump rod. I just checked the diameter of the valley tube and it is about 23/64. These fittings won't deliver all the volume a loose engine could use, I don't think.

Ronnieroadster · 02-28-2016, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40cpe

I measured the ID if the -6 fittings I have, it is .271. The rear main already has it's oil, so the filtered oil goes straight to the valley tube, less what is lost at the fuel pump rod. I just checked the diameter of the valley tube and it is about 23/64. These fittings won't deliver all the volume a loose engine could use, I don't think.

Now your seeing what's needed for flow the valley tube diameter 23/64 being .3593 is only part of it. The artery feeding the tube as well as the fuel pump push rod area is designed larger no doubt to allow adequate volume including wear in the bearings. Try to stay above the .421 size of the main artery and you will be fine.

40cpe · 11-02-2016, 03:43 PM

OK, bringing up an old thread and subject, same engine as the rest of the thread. I now have Aeroquip fittings and hose 1/2" for my filter plumbing. I have slightly enlarged the 3/8" passages in the fittings. This is my first time experience with this and preparing for pushing the hose on the fittings, I goolged the subject and find horror stories about getting the hose on the fitting fully. I have hot water, heat gun, lubricants, vise, gloves, at hand. It sounds like the worst case scenario is getting the hose part-way on and can't get it any further or back off. Ideas to increase my chances of success (except a $250 tool) are much appreciated.

john in illinois · 11-02-2016, 03:58 PM

I put the fittings between 2 pieces of wood in the vice,dipped hose end in hot water,lubed inside of hose and pushed it on. No problems.

John

BillM · 11-02-2016, 04:21 PM

Assume you are using the Socketless Fittings and hose; here is a link to assembly instructions: http://aeroquipperformance.com/p-240...ocketless-hose

40cpe · 11-02-2016, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillM

here is a link to assembly instructions: http://aeroquipperformance.com/p-240...ocketless-hose

Thanks Bill. I hope it goes that smoothly.

V8 Bob · 11-02-2016, 05:06 PM

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40cpe, I also use Aeroquip socketless fittings and hose. I use Eaton hose assembly lube and a heat gun, with the fitting secured in a vice. A little practice with excess hose will get you comfortable with the procedure, and how much heat is really needed.

rotorwrench · 11-02-2016, 05:21 PM

It's more expensive but all I ever use are the standard thread on fittings from Aeroquip or Stratoflex with braided stainless line. Aeroquip got into the automotive market but the standard aircraft stuff was likely too expensive for that market. The aircraft stuff is available from Aircraft Spruce but it ain't cheap at 35 to 75 bucks per fitting on the AE701 type hose in the -6 category.

Jack E/NJ · 11-02-2016, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike42

You know it's funny.....when I was a kid and had a 1950 Ford. I just started it up Summer or Winter and ran the hell of of it. Never a problem. Now we are all worried about so many different things and nursing these flatheads along ! It makes me chuckle....!

You know Mike. As a kid I had an early 38 Ford. Still got it. Its refreshed 21-studder has now been running again for the past 6 years. But without a bypass to filter out sand. Not even a full flow to filter out rocks. No filter at all to worry myself about pressure drops. Except of course for the screen on the pump. That can get clogged and cause pressure drop problems. So I do baby it. Change the 5W-20 synblend every year or 2K miles, whichever happens first. Just like recommended in the old days. 8^) Jack E/NJ

40cpe · 11-05-2016, 01:03 PM

I installed the hose on the fittings this morning. No drama, went much better than expected. A couple of minutes with the heat gun, a little lubriplate, and they went to the collar. One thing that I read gave me confidence: If you need to remove the hose from the fitting, use a soldering iron with a spade tip to cut down the length of the fitting. Removes the hose without damaging the fitting.

02-06-2016, 06:31 PM	#2
Ronnieroadster Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: East Coast in CT Posts: 1,524	Re: "95%" oil filter pressure drop across the filter I doubt there's any noticeable difference in readings before or after the filter. If you notice any pressure drop across the filter the cause is a poor filter design for this application the amount of holes around the outer ring of the filter is an area of concern I have seen some fram and AC filters with six very small holes these filters caused a long delay in seeing a reading on the oil pressure gauge. I always use Ford Motorcraft FL-1 A filters on this conversion their design has eight oval shaped holes for oil flow as well as a larger diameter center pipe which is 7/8 of an inch. Using the Motorcraft filters there's no delay in pressure readings. So far I have a few hundred thousand miles on my 95 percent converted flatheads never experianced any lubrication issues with the proper filter and oil pump.

02-06-2016, 07:02 PM	#3
Ronnie Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Canada Where it snows Posts: 2,058	Re: "95%" oil filter pressure drop across the filter The down stream pressures in a normal running temp engine are always less than the upstream pressures.This will be observed when the oil is up to temp.This is referred to as pressure differential.The filters you mention are all very capable of fulfilling your needs.Remember all the filters out there you see in stores only have to meet the oem requirements,not exceed them.(some do both) Don't try and reinvent the system.As long as the supply lines are not reversed you will be good to go.In your statement about the center tube being larger would have nothing with pressures.The difference will always be less than the bypass valve setting for it to remain closed.I hope this helps. R

02-06-2016, 07:39 PM	#4
40cpe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Star, MS Posts: 4,024	Re: "95%" oil filter pressure drop across the filter I do have the FL1A filter on it. Do OEM newer engines have the pressure sensor upstream or downstream of the filter? Anyone know? In a perfect world, I would rather see pressures my bearing see rather than what the filter sees.

02-06-2016, 08:07 PM	#5
Ronnie Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Canada Where it snows Posts: 2,058	Re: "95%" oil filter pressure drop across the filter Then in your final install put your gauge after the filter.As i stated at operating temp the differential pressure will be less than the bypass valve setting in order to keep the valve closed,that on average is somewhere between 7 to 12 lbs or so. R

02-26-2016, 05:55 PM	#9
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: "95%" oil filter pressure drop across the filter I want to know the oil pressure going into the engine, not what is coming out of the pump. That said, the pressure drop across the filter is not an issue as long as adequate oil pressure is feeding the engine.

02-26-2016, 05:58 PM	#10
Ronnieroadster Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: East Coast in CT Posts: 1,524	Re: "95%" oil filter pressure drop across the filter The 90 degree fittings your using are adding a lot of flow restriction to the oil system be careful. If you have more angled fittings on the filter end there's a great deal of restriction. I have seen the results of bearing damage caused by four 90 degree 3/8 pipe thread fittings to 1/2 inch inside diameter oil lines the two oil lines had a combined total length of just over six feet. It was not a pretty picture.

02-26-2016, 08:02 PM	#11
40cpe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Star, MS Posts: 4,024	Re: "95%" oil filter pressure drop across the filter Sorry about the picture being upside down. It was straight on the preview. Ronnie, the filter end fittings are straight. I noticed the opening at the flared connection was small, about 1/4" (6 AN fittings) but I didn't measure them. The flared hose fittings have small passages in them, too. I don't see how to get larger openings being limited to 3/8" pipe threads in the engine. I'm using hydraulic fittings and lines and that is what the hydraulic shop recommended. Is there something better for the connecting lines?

02-26-2016, 11:08 PM	#13
Bored&Stroked Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 5,062	Re: "95%" oil filter pressure drop across the filter If you're going to need/use 45 or 90 degree fittings, then buy the high-flow versions that are designed for performance oiling systems. The fittings are not cheap, but they restrict the flow the least amount possible. Here is the type of fitting I purchased from Jegs: 2-26-2016 10-59-49 PM.jpg Here is an example on a 100% full-flow setup that I built (hidden inside of a Fram filter). I used -10 hoses as I wanted to minimize the restriction through the system. I also increased the oil fitting sizes on the back of the block to 3/8" NPT and used a 7/16 drill to bore-out the main horizontal oil return passage back into the block. 2015-11-07 18.31.35.jpg

02-27-2016, 12:02 AM	#14
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,857	Re: "95%" oil filter pressure drop across the filter My new remote filter has a gauge output on the engine side of the filter. I have an oil gauge in the glove box with a small gauge for the oil and temp as backup.

02-27-2016, 12:27 AM	#15
Ronnie Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Canada Where it snows Posts: 2,058	Re: "95%" oil filter pressure drop across the filter I don't see a problem with 10 lb difference in pressure. What is pressure before filter and after? Also what are the pressures at start up cold engine? R

02-27-2016, 04:34 PM	#16
mike42 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Gaylord, Michigan Posts: 1,599	Re: "95%" oil filter pressure drop across the filter You know it's funny.....when I was a kid and had a 1950 Ford. I just started it up Summer or Winter and ran the hell of of it. Never a problem. Now we are all worried about so many different things and nursing these flatheads along ! It makes me chuckle....!

02-27-2016, 07:07 PM	#18
40cpe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Star, MS Posts: 4,024	Re: "95%" oil filter pressure drop across the filter It looks like I'm buying and education. I have 3/8" ID hose and it looks like Ronnie uses 1/2" and Bored & Stroked uses 5/8". I found 3/8 pipe to -8 fitting. I'll get everything mounted and then buy larger fittings and hoses. The pressure ahead of the filter was 55# and 45#on the engine side with 10w-30 oil. The temp was 170 average between the two sides but the oil wasn't that warm. I'm TRYING not to run the engine until I get it in the car.

02-27-2016, 08:53 PM	#20
40cpe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Star, MS Posts: 4,024	Re: "95%" oil filter pressure drop across the filter I measured the ID if the -6 fittings I have, it is .271. The rear main already has it's oil, so the filtered oil goes straight to the valley tube, less what is lost at the fuel pump rod. I just checked the diameter of the valley tube and it is about 23/64. These fittings won't deliver all the volume a loose engine could use, I don't think.

11-02-2016, 03:43 PM	#22
40cpe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Star, MS Posts: 4,024	Re: "95%" oil filter pressure drop across the filter OK, bringing up an old thread and subject, same engine as the rest of the thread. I now have Aeroquip fittings and hose 1/2" for my filter plumbing. I have slightly enlarged the 3/8" passages in the fittings. This is my first time experience with this and preparing for pushing the hose on the fittings, I goolged the subject and find horror stories about getting the hose on the fitting fully. I have hot water, heat gun, lubricants, vise, gloves, at hand. It sounds like the worst case scenario is getting the hose part-way on and can't get it any further or back off. Ideas to increase my chances of success (except a $250 tool) are much appreciated.

11-02-2016, 03:58 PM	#23
john in illinois Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Illinois Posts: 2,183	Re: "95%" oil filter pressure drop across the filter I put the fittings between 2 pieces of wood in the vice,dipped hose end in hot water,lubed inside of hose and pushed it on. No problems. John

11-02-2016, 04:21 PM	#24
BillM Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 504	Re: "95%" oil filter pressure drop across the filter Assume you are using the Socketless Fittings and hose; here is a link to assembly instructions: http://aeroquipperformance.com/p-240...ocketless-hose __________________ My web page: http://myplace.frontier.com/~wgmumaw/

11-02-2016, 05:06 PM	#26
V8 Bob Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Granger (Northern) Indiana Posts: 1,520	Re: "95%" oil filter pressure drop across the filter Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) 40cpe, I also use Aeroquip socketless fittings and hose. I use Eaton hose assembly lube and a heat gun, with the fitting secured in a vice. A little practice with excess hose will get you comfortable with the procedure, and how much heat is really needed.

11-02-2016, 05:21 PM	#27
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,423	Re: "95%" oil filter pressure drop across the filter It's more expensive but all I ever use are the standard thread on fittings from Aeroquip or Stratoflex with braided stainless line. Aeroquip got into the automotive market but the standard aircraft stuff was likely too expensive for that market. The aircraft stuff is available from Aircraft Spruce but it ain't cheap at 35 to 75 bucks per fitting on the AE701 type hose in the -6 category.

11-05-2016, 01:03 PM	#29
40cpe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Star, MS Posts: 4,024	Re: "95%" oil filter pressure drop across the filter I installed the hose on the fittings this morning. No drama, went much better than expected. A couple of minutes with the heat gun, a little lubriplate, and they went to the collar. One thing that I read gave me confidence: If you need to remove the hose from the fitting, use a soldering iron with a spade tip to cut down the length of the fitting. Removes the hose without damaging the fitting.