The Ford Barn

jesster925 · 08-31-2014, 10:24 AM

Well been absent from the barn for a few months, Been crazy busy. Did get some time in to work on my 28. Going to a show in Dublin on sept. 6 (CA). Its about 30 miles one way, and for me by far the farthest I have taken her.
Yesterday I cleaned her up a bit, got every thing squared away with Hagerty, And took a short drive to make sure all was good. Well.... About 5 miles in to the drive I started to get water out of the top of the radiator (I have a motor meter) according to the thermometer it was in the "Safe" window, So I thought maybe I just put too much in. When I got in to town, I pulled in to the gas station, Turned off the gas let it run for a sec, Turned off the key and it back fired so load (I think thru the Carb) I'm sure some of the folks there had to go home and change there shorts! After getting gas, She wouldn't start! Just turned over fine, But that's it. Let it sit for 2 or 3 minutes, And started right up. The whole time going to town was 35 MPH with it to the wood. On the way home about the same 30/35 MPH, About 2 miles from the house I lost all oil pressure (according to the brand new APCO gauge I put in) and the back fire from hell when I shut it off in the shop.
I had the distributor out when I was cleaning the engine up for painting, So I hoping it is just a timing issue. The oil pressure.... I'm going to pull the 1/8" line off and see if it got plugged up or something and try the leave the hole open and see if oil comes out.
Any other ideas why I might loose oil pressure like that? I would really would love to go to this show, But not worth breaking the engine from no oil pressure or cooking it from over heating!!!
Thanks for any advice, You guy's rock.

Bob C · 08-31-2014, 10:49 AM

Need more information. Where are you running the spark lever, what is the GAV
setting, is the throttle opening the carb butterfly all the way.

Bob

Tom Wesenberg · 08-31-2014, 11:18 AM

My first guess is the timing was too late, which will cause excess engine heat and lack of power.

29 Tudor · 08-31-2014, 12:24 PM

If this is a basically stock "A" engine, you will seldom see any oil pressure after the engine get warm. I have a gauge on mine and before I installed the oil filter, the pressure was about 5 PSI or so cold and went to zero after it was up to temperature. After adding the oil filter, the gauge measures the INPUT pressure to the filter which runs over 10 PSI (gauge maxes out) when cold an once warm, it shows 3-4 PSI going down the road. Very comforting to me to see the pressure an KNOW the oil system is working.

In case you did not know, the Model A pump supplies a LOT of oil to the valve chamber where is flows by gravity to the mains, timing gear and into the dipper tray to lube the rod bearings. This setup has very little resistance to oil flow so you see essentially no pressure when the oil is hot and flows easily.

Hope that helps,

Steve

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 08-31-2014, 12:29 PM

First off, unless someone has 'capped' the oiling system, there really is not supposed to be any "oil pressure". If you need to verify that oil is circulating, then remove/loosen the lower oil transfer pipe on the side of the block with the engine running. You will know quickly if the oil pump is working.

With regard to the backfire, that often happens when the timing is retarded yet the engine is idling/running too fast when it is shut off. Next time, allow the engine to idle 15-20 seconds with the timing advanced and then push the spark control lever to full-retard and allow it to idle another 15-20 seconds.

Also, do not worry with the water issue just yet. Take a moment to properly re-time the ignition, and then drive while opening the carburetor GAV to get a baseline there. For the time being, only add just enough water to the radiator to barely cover the top of the tubes.

hardtimes · 08-31-2014, 01:48 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

My first guess is the timing was too late, which will cause excess engine heat and lack of power.

x two ! Done that when messing with dist and not paying full attn.

jesster925 · 08-31-2014, 09:45 PM

First, Thanks to all of you for the replys. I did the timing as good as I could (For a Rookie) with my fingers, Don't have one of those tools for turning/holding the distributor cam (I'm guessing it would be called a "distributor cam tool") and got it as close as I could. Took her out for a short spin and still had no power. Back to the shop, tried it again. I also noticed a strange pull when I hit the brakes. So jacked it up and the front left tire was all but locked up. adjusted that and took her out again. Still not a lot of power. So I thohught about Bob C's reply about the spark lever and started messing with that. A bit past half way up and OMGshe is back to as good as it was before. Can still only get 53 MPH., But thats good enough for me.
@ Brent, I put the water level just over the top of the tubes and didn't lose any out of the cap or over flow. I also took your advice on the back fire thing. Not sure if it was that, or the timing thing but after about a 15 min drive , no back fire @ Bob C, Now this is going to make me sound like a noob, But not sure what the GAV is. If it is the knob thing on the choke, About a half turn counter clockwise (1/4 turn at start up) I have been told that was good and also that turning it could give it more or less power. Right now 53 MPH will get me to Dublin and she is running good so... "If it ain't borke..."
@ 29 tudor and others, It is a bone stock engine to the best of my knowledge. I took the line from block to gauge off, blew it out. Hooked up another line (To keep the mess out of the engine compartment) and had oil come out. Hooked it all back up before the 1st test drive, 7 LBS at start up and 1-3 LBS during the drive. I don't know if that is a bad thing or not, But I kinda like knowing if the pump is working or not. It is also brand new oil, So maybe as it breaks down it will drop.
Thanks again, Iv'e said it before and will say it again, You guy's rock. Would be REALLY lost with out your help.

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 09-01-2014, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesster925

First, Thanks to all of you for the replys. I did the timing as good as I could (For a Rookie) with my fingers, Don't have one of those tools for turning/holding the distributor cam (I'm guessing it would be called a "distributor cam tool") and got it as close as I could. Took her out for a short spin and still had no power. Back to the shop, tried it again. I also noticed a strange pull when I hit the brakes. So jacked it up and the front left tire was all but locked up. adjusted that and took her out again. Still not a lot of power. So I thohught about Bob C's reply about the spark lever and started messing with that. A bit past half way up and OMGshe is back to as good as it was before. Can still only get 53 MPH., But thats good enough for me.
@ Brent, I put the water level just over the top of the tubes and didn't lose any out of the cap or over flow. I also took your advice on the back fire thing. Not sure if it was that, or the timing thing but after about a 15 min drive , no back fire @ Bob C, Now this is going to make me sound like a noob, But not sure what the GAV is. If it is the knob thing on the choke, About a half turn counter clockwise (1/4 turn at start up) I have been told that was good and also that turning it could give it more or less power. Right now 53 MPH will get me to Dublin and she is running good so... "If it ain't borke..."
@ 29 tudor and others, It is a bone stock engine to the best of my knowledge. I took the line from block to gauge off, blew it out. Hooked up another line (To keep the mess out of the engine compartment) and had oil come out. Hooked it all back up before the 1st test drive, 7 LBS at start up and 1-3 LBS during the drive. I don't know if that is a bad thing or not, But I kinda like knowing if the pump is working or not. It is also brand new oil, So maybe as it breaks down it will drop.
Thanks again, Iv'e said it before and will say it again, You guy's rock. Would be REALLY lost with out your help.

GAV = Gas Adjusting Valve.

Yes, I would use as much as one full round off of seat above 45 mph and see how the engine responds. If it likes that, open another quarter round to see what it does.

jesster925 · 09-01-2014, 09:53 AM

I might try that on sat. There are a few spots where I could try it out. Here are a few pic's (o:

Tom Wesenberg · 09-01-2014, 11:09 AM

Jesster925, you have a very nice looking Fordor. Two things should be changed though. The cast iron water outlet looks like the taller 30-1 part, rather than the correct shorter outlet for 28-9. Also the bottom water pipe is the 30-1 pipe, rather than the correct 28-9 pipe with the bend much nearer the radiator. Both of the parts can put stress on the radiator inlet and outlet pipes.

donQ · 09-02-2014, 12:12 PM

sometimes it's hard to tell how much water to put in the radiator. what I do is fill to the bottom of the filler neck, then drain about 12-16 oz out by opening the petcock at the bottom of the lower radiator pipe.
donQ

Tom Wesenberg · 09-02-2014, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donQ

sometimes it's hard to tell how much water to put in the radiator. what I do is fill to the bottom of the filler neck, then drain about 12-16 oz out by opening the petcock at the bottom of the lower radiator pipe.
donQ

Why drain it out?
The coolant should at least cover the tops of the radiator tubes.

jesster925 · 09-04-2014, 02:34 PM

@ Tom I kinda new somthing was not right with the cast outlet on top, From the base to the highest point is 5 1/2". Now every thing I have seen (in catalogs and web site's) say's 5" or 6". So I'm not sure where this thing came from. I'm going to a show this weekend, Then I think that's it for a few weeks. Will look in to changing it then. I bought a temp gauge for it and looking for a spot to hook it up any how. Also will check in to the lower tube, I had no idea that was wrong.
Thanks a bunch for the help

Tom Wesenberg · 09-05-2014, 01:27 AM

Be careful with changine the top outlet. Those two cast iron ears break easily. Make sure both surfaces are flat and don't use the paper gasket. I use the copper gasket, or no gasket and have the best luck. With no gasket just smear a thin layer of silicone of the surface.

jesster925 · 09-05-2014, 10:28 AM

I did the silicone sealer. I also seen that they will break real easy in the shop manual I bought "Mechanics Handbook" By Les Andrews. Awesome book, And definitely a necessity for some one (Like myself) that is new to the stock rebuild game. But I have been chucking the paper gaskets for years. This is my first "Stock" build, But have been working on cars for 40 years. Still good advice to a newbie and ALL advice at this point is well taken.
I would still like to know how I ended up with a outlet that is 5 1/2". I put new hoses on, Top and bottom, The bottom fit fine, But the top I had to cut shorter to get it to fit. I made it the same length as the one I took off, And now I think I know why it was shorter, 6" not 7", So I guess when I get a new outlet, I will get a new hose's. Glad they are only $15 (o;
Thanks again for the help.

Tom Wesenberg · 09-05-2014, 06:58 PM

Any year Model A engine will swap out for a worn engine, and the cast outlet usually goes with it, right or wrong.

jesster925 · 09-06-2014, 08:32 AM

I don't recall where I checked it (I think it was here, Or Mr. Plucker's site), But I checked the stamp number on the engine and it is a 1928 number "A748317". But maybe the original neck broke, and this one was from another car, Changed back in oh let's say.....1935. That part I can see, But why is it 5 1/2", Not 5" or 6"? Either way it has to be changed and that will give me a good spot to hook up the temp gauge. (o:

08-31-2014, 10:24 AM	#1
jesster925 Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Tracy, CA Posts: 15	No oil pressure and pushing out coolant Well been absent from the barn for a few months, Been crazy busy. Did get some time in to work on my 28. Going to a show in Dublin on sept. 6 (CA). Its about 30 miles one way, and for me by far the farthest I have taken her. Yesterday I cleaned her up a bit, got every thing squared away with Hagerty, And took a short drive to make sure all was good. Well.... About 5 miles in to the drive I started to get water out of the top of the radiator (I have a motor meter) according to the thermometer it was in the "Safe" window, So I thought maybe I just put too much in. When I got in to town, I pulled in to the gas station, Turned off the gas let it run for a sec, Turned off the key and it back fired so load (I think thru the Carb) I'm sure some of the folks there had to go home and change there shorts! After getting gas, She wouldn't start! Just turned over fine, But that's it. Let it sit for 2 or 3 minutes, And started right up. The whole time going to town was 35 MPH with it to the wood. On the way home about the same 30/35 MPH, About 2 miles from the house I lost all oil pressure (according to the brand new APCO gauge I put in) and the back fire from hell when I shut it off in the shop. I had the distributor out when I was cleaning the engine up for painting, So I hoping it is just a timing issue. The oil pressure.... I'm going to pull the 1/8" line off and see if it got plugged up or something and try the leave the hole open and see if oil comes out. Any other ideas why I might loose oil pressure like that? I would really would love to go to this show, But not worth breaking the engine from no oil pressure or cooking it from over heating!!! Thanks for any advice, You guy's rock.

08-31-2014, 10:49 AM	#2
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 8,755	Re: No oil pressure and pushing out coolant Need more information. Where are you running the spark lever, what is the GAV setting, is the throttle opening the carb butterfly all the way. Bob

08-31-2014, 11:18 AM	#3
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: No oil pressure and pushing out coolant My first guess is the timing was too late, which will cause excess engine heat and lack of power.

08-31-2014, 12:24 PM	#4
29 Tudor Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Magnolia, TX Posts: 161	Re: No oil pressure and pushing out coolant If this is a basically stock "A" engine, you will seldom see any oil pressure after the engine get warm. I have a gauge on mine and before I installed the oil filter, the pressure was about 5 PSI or so cold and went to zero after it was up to temperature. After adding the oil filter, the gauge measures the INPUT pressure to the filter which runs over 10 PSI (gauge maxes out) when cold an once warm, it shows 3-4 PSI going down the road. Very comforting to me to see the pressure an KNOW the oil system is working. In case you did not know, the Model A pump supplies a LOT of oil to the valve chamber where is flows by gravity to the mains, timing gear and into the dipper tray to lube the rod bearings. This setup has very little resistance to oil flow so you see essentially no pressure when the oil is hot and flows easily. Hope that helps, Steve

08-31-2014, 12:29 PM	#5
BRENT in 10-uh-C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Eastern Tennessee Posts: 11,520	Re: No oil pressure and pushing out coolant First off, unless someone has 'capped' the oiling system, there really is not supposed to be any "oil pressure". If you need to verify that oil is circulating, then remove/loosen the lower oil transfer pipe on the side of the block with the engine running. You will know quickly if the oil pump is working. With regard to the backfire, that often happens when the timing is retarded yet the engine is idling/running too fast when it is shut off. Next time, allow the engine to idle 15-20 seconds with the timing advanced and then push the spark control lever to full-retard and allow it to idle another 15-20 seconds. Also, do not worry with the water issue just yet. Take a moment to properly re-time the ignition, and then drive while opening the carburetor GAV to get a baseline there. For the time being, only add just enough water to the radiator to barely cover the top of the tubes. __________________ . BRENT in 10-uh-C . www.model-a-ford.com ...(...Finally Updated!! ) .

08-31-2014, 09:45 PM	#7
jesster925 Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Tracy, CA Posts: 15	Re: No oil pressure and pushing out coolant First, Thanks to all of you for the replys. I did the timing as good as I could (For a Rookie) with my fingers, Don't have one of those tools for turning/holding the distributor cam (I'm guessing it would be called a "distributor cam tool") and got it as close as I could. Took her out for a short spin and still had no power. Back to the shop, tried it again. I also noticed a strange pull when I hit the brakes. So jacked it up and the front left tire was all but locked up. adjusted that and took her out again. Still not a lot of power. So I thohught about Bob C's reply about the spark lever and started messing with that. A bit past half way up and OMGshe is back to as good as it was before. Can still only get 53 MPH., But thats good enough for me. @ Brent, I put the water level just over the top of the tubes and didn't lose any out of the cap or over flow. I also took your advice on the back fire thing. Not sure if it was that, or the timing thing but after about a 15 min drive , no back fire @ Bob C, Now this is going to make me sound like a noob, But not sure what the GAV is. If it is the knob thing on the choke, About a half turn counter clockwise (1/4 turn at start up) I have been told that was good and also that turning it could give it more or less power. Right now 53 MPH will get me to Dublin and she is running good so... "If it ain't borke..." @ 29 tudor and others, It is a bone stock engine to the best of my knowledge. I took the line from block to gauge off, blew it out. Hooked up another line (To keep the mess out of the engine compartment) and had oil come out. Hooked it all back up before the 1st test drive, 7 LBS at start up and 1-3 LBS during the drive. I don't know if that is a bad thing or not, But I kinda like knowing if the pump is working or not. It is also brand new oil, So maybe as it breaks down it will drop. Thanks again, Iv'e said it before and will say it again, You guy's rock. Would be REALLY lost with out your help.

09-01-2014, 11:09 AM	#10
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: No oil pressure and pushing out coolant Jesster925, you have a very nice looking Fordor. Two things should be changed though. The cast iron water outlet looks like the taller 30-1 part, rather than the correct shorter outlet for 28-9. Also the bottom water pipe is the 30-1 pipe, rather than the correct 28-9 pipe with the bend much nearer the radiator. Both of the parts can put stress on the radiator inlet and outlet pipes.

09-02-2014, 12:12 PM	#11
donQ Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 146	Re: No oil pressure and pushing out coolant sometimes it's hard to tell how much water to put in the radiator. what I do is fill to the bottom of the filler neck, then drain about 12-16 oz out by opening the petcock at the bottom of the lower radiator pipe. donQ

09-04-2014, 02:34 PM	#13
jesster925 Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Tracy, CA Posts: 15	Re: No oil pressure and pushing out coolant @ Tom I kinda new somthing was not right with the cast outlet on top, From the base to the highest point is 5 1/2". Now every thing I have seen (in catalogs and web site's) say's 5" or 6". So I'm not sure where this thing came from. I'm going to a show this weekend, Then I think that's it for a few weeks. Will look in to changing it then. I bought a temp gauge for it and looking for a spot to hook it up any how. Also will check in to the lower tube, I had no idea that was wrong. Thanks a bunch for the help

09-05-2014, 01:27 AM	#14
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: No oil pressure and pushing out coolant Be careful with changine the top outlet. Those two cast iron ears break easily. Make sure both surfaces are flat and don't use the paper gasket. I use the copper gasket, or no gasket and have the best luck. With no gasket just smear a thin layer of silicone of the surface.

09-05-2014, 10:28 AM	#15
jesster925 Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Tracy, CA Posts: 15	Re: No oil pressure and pushing out coolant I did the silicone sealer. I also seen that they will break real easy in the shop manual I bought "Mechanics Handbook" By Les Andrews. Awesome book, And definitely a necessity for some one (Like myself) that is new to the stock rebuild game. But I have been chucking the paper gaskets for years. This is my first "Stock" build, But have been working on cars for 40 years. Still good advice to a newbie and ALL advice at this point is well taken. I would still like to know how I ended up with a outlet that is 5 1/2". I put new hoses on, Top and bottom, The bottom fit fine, But the top I had to cut shorter to get it to fit. I made it the same length as the one I took off, And now I think I know why it was shorter, 6" not 7", So I guess when I get a new outlet, I will get a new hose's. Glad they are only $15 (o; Thanks again for the help.

09-05-2014, 06:58 PM	#16
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: No oil pressure and pushing out coolant Any year Model A engine will swap out for a worn engine, and the cast outlet usually goes with it, right or wrong.

09-06-2014, 08:32 AM	#17
jesster925 Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Tracy, CA Posts: 15	Re: No oil pressure and pushing out coolant I don't recall where I checked it (I think it was here, Or Mr. Plucker's site), But I checked the stamp number on the engine and it is a 1928 number "A748317". But maybe the original neck broke, and this one was from another car, Changed back in oh let's say.....1935. That part I can see, But why is it 5 1/2", Not 5" or 6"? Either way it has to be changed and that will give me a good spot to hook up the temp gauge. (o: