The Ford Barn

Ralph Moore · 01-29-2011, 11:50 AM

A friend's mating a 1967 Mustang four speed to a Y block, the input shaft needs to be shortened about 1/2"(rough measurement) at pilot bearing end. I went over to help him take it apart, and after we had the throw out bearing sleeve/cover off the bearing and top plate off tranny, I thought the shaft would come right out, but it moves about 3/8" and won't go. What's holding it?
Do we have to dissasemble the entire tranny?
I don't remember doing that on my 3 speed.

34pickup · 01-29-2011, 04:43 PM

I found it works to unbolt the tailshaft.You can then slide the main shaft back and in the process dropping all of the needle bearings into the case.After you pull it back you may be able to remove the retainer ring off of the input shaft and wiggle it out.Some transmissions though have to have the cluster gear out of the way before it will come out.I think you would be a lot better off by just measuring how much needs to be cut off and do it with an air powered cut off wheel and then clean up the surface to smooth things out.My 2¢

Ralph Moore · 01-29-2011, 07:08 PM

We were thinking the same thing, if it meant dissasembling the tranny we were going to use the cutoff wheel and then smooth out the end of the shaft and camfer the end with a file. Since the bearing/bushing rides on the outer suface of the shaft, the rest is just for installation purposes.

dav · 01-29-2011, 10:01 PM

I didn't know a mustang 4 speed would bolt up to the y-block bell housing. All that you have to do is cut the front shaft about a half?. Really sounds good and it's still a Ford trans. What else is needed to complete the change over?. You have me interrested. Can you let us Ford Barners know?. Thank you.

Ralph Moore · 01-30-2011, 01:09 PM

We did all the measurements and so far the only other thing we've had to change is the outer diameter of the front bearing retainer/release bearing shaft. Sorry, I don't have the exact measurements in front of me.
I guess you could enlarge the hole on the bell housing instead of trimming the bearing retainer, but it was easier to get a friend to chuck it up in a lathe and trim it. If my memory serves me I think we may have to drill one of the mounting holes into the bell housing as well.
If you need all the exact specs, I'm sure my friend could whip up a CAD drawing.

dav · 01-30-2011, 01:42 PM

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I'd like to have a drawing and any info as I would like to put a four speed in my 57 Ford and from what your saying it's now a hard thing to do. Any info along with pictures would be great. Here is my email address [email protected] Thanks

Ole Don · 01-30-2011, 04:30 PM

Ralph, the cut off is fine. Wrap the shaft with a wet rag to keep it cool. I like to bolt it all together with no clutch so I can look up inside with a mirrow to check that. Dont tighten the bolts to much, you could break off a tranny ear. I took my mainshaft off about 3/8 with a 4/12 inch grinder. To remove the input gear, you need to drop the cluster to the botton of the case.

dav · 01-30-2011, 04:57 PM

Just wondering do you have to take the front shaft out of the trans or can you just cut the 3/8" of the shaft? I understand that the front shaft has to be kept cool as it is cut. I don't want to take the trans apart. Can you help me out here.

Ole Don · 01-30-2011, 08:04 PM

Dont take it apart. Measure twice, cut once.

paul2748 · 01-30-2011, 10:09 PM

I put the same 4 speed against a YBlock. You do not need to pull out the input shaft. Just cut it with it in place. I think I took off 3/8 of an inch, but check this before any cutting. I think I used a dremel, then chamfered the end. like original.

The front bearing retainer has to be cut a smidgen, but not enough that it interferes with the bolts holding it on. Have a machine shop do this. Measure the hole in the bellhousing for size or use a stock YBlock retainer for the measurement.

dav · 01-30-2011, 11:18 PM

How about the pressure plate and clutch disk, do I use the orignal pressure plate? how about the clutch disk? throw out bearing? also what about the crankshaft pilot bearing? can you help me out here?. Thank you.

Ralph Moore · 01-31-2011, 09:25 AM

Pilot bearing measures the same,use the mustang pressure plate/clutch disk setup, drill/tap new Press plate holes in flywheel if they don't line up.
Were still in the eary stages of this conversion, so I could be wrong, but so far it looks like this is the way to go.
We had a spare bell housing and took it to the machinist with the bearing retainer, he cut it to a slip fit.

dav · 01-31-2011, 10:04 AM

I have to buy a trans and the other parts needed can you tell me if other trans Ford or mustangs and yrs will work? I know your using the 1967 Mustang trans. Thanks

paul2748 · 01-31-2011, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dav

How about the pressure plate and clutch disk, do I use the orignal pressure plate? how about the clutch disk? throw out bearing? also what about the crankshaft pilot bearing? can you help me out here?. Thank you.

You can use the stock pressure plate, but you will have to get a disc that fits the input shaft (# of teeth, size besides the overall diameter). The throwout bearing should be ok, I used a stock 54 when i did my changeover. Ditto on the pilot bearing, but just try it before putting everything together.

dav · 01-31-2011, 11:09 PM

I'm hopeing you have this info for this change over. You are using a 1967 Mustang transmission is it a toploader ? can you tell me what engine the trans came out of and what other Ford trans I can use, numbers. I really want to thank you for all your help and info. Thanks Again Dav

paul2748 · 02-01-2011, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dav

I have to buy a trans and the other parts needed can you tell me if other trans Ford or mustangs and yrs will work? I know your using the 1967 Mustang trans. Thanks

If you are interested in top loader 4 speeds, there are three case designs that I know of. The very earliest used the old YBlock bolt pattern (64 to 65) and bolt up directly to a yblock bellhousing, but the front retainer plate still must be turned down to fit the Y bell. The second case has a dual pattern on the top (65 to ?) - one fits the Y bolt pattern, the other the new pattern. Bottom bolt spacing is the same as a Y. The third one has only one set of holes at the top but is the new, wider pattern. Everything I have heard indicates that the holes can be drilled in the case for the Y top pattern as there is enough "meat" to provide strength. The latter two require the front retainer to be turned down.

The 289's to 390's used the same trans (I am told) although ratios inside could differ. The small blocks used a 28 spline output shaft, big blocks 31 spline. They also had a close ratio and wide ratio set of gears. The 427 and 428s used a trans with a heavier input and output shafts.

Rear housings also differed quite a lot, was for shifter locations depending in what car the trans was used in. I think there may have been a few different lengths although I'm not sure about this.

The one with the shifter closest to the main case was for a Falcon and maybe a Sunbeam Tiger. The housing is reproduced as far as I know by David Kee.

The first toploaders in 64 had a 25 spline output shaft and yokes are had to find for it. The good news is that the later 28 spline shaft is a direct replacement and yokes are available as well as the output shafts.

Go to www.davidkeetoploaders.com for lots of parts and info.

dav · 02-01-2011, 09:33 PM

A question I don't think I asked you?. What are putting the y-block and 4 speed transmission into?. Well the only thing left for me now is to find the right transmission I have seen prices that are reasonable to some that must be gold plated. Again thank you for the info that you have given to all the Fordbarners and me. Thanks Dav

Ralph Moore · 02-02-2011, 01:49 PM

It's going in his 1938 Deluxe Fordor.

28RPU · 02-02-2011, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dav

I'm hopeing you have this info for this change over. You are using a 1967 Mustang transmission is it a toploader ? can you tell me what engine the trans came out of and what other Ford trans I can use, numbers. I really want to thank you for all your help and info. Thanks Again Dav

Also keep in mind that all top loaders don't have the same input shaft length. The big block had a shorter input than the small block if I recall correctly.If you check out the David Kee site you will probably be able to find out for certain.

dav · 02-02-2011, 09:26 PM

Just to let you know ! now I don't have a clue what trans to use. I'm going to have to find one so if I don't know what I'm lookin for I'm in trouble. Is there a way you could help me out here?. The chart is just a bunch of numbers to me I need some measurements so I can find the trans I need. Will this be possible?. Dav

01-29-2011, 11:50 AM	#1
Ralph Moore Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: North Pole, Alaska Posts: 1,470	How to remove a tranny input shaft? A friend's mating a 1967 Mustang four speed to a Y block, the input shaft needs to be shortened about 1/2"(rough measurement) at pilot bearing end. I went over to help him take it apart, and after we had the throw out bearing sleeve/cover off the bearing and top plate off tranny, I thought the shaft would come right out, but it moves about 3/8" and won't go. What's holding it? Do we have to dissasemble the entire tranny? I don't remember doing that on my 3 speed.

01-29-2011, 04:43 PM	#2
34pickup Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Huntsville Al Posts: 1,526	Re: How to remove a tranny input shaft? I found it works to unbolt the tailshaft.You can then slide the main shaft back and in the process dropping all of the needle bearings into the case.After you pull it back you may be able to remove the retainer ring off of the input shaft and wiggle it out.Some transmissions though have to have the cluster gear out of the way before it will come out.I think you would be a lot better off by just measuring how much needs to be cut off and do it with an air powered cut off wheel and then clean up the surface to smooth things out.My 2¢

01-29-2011, 07:08 PM	#3
Ralph Moore Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: North Pole, Alaska Posts: 1,470	Re: How to remove a tranny input shaft? We were thinking the same thing, if it meant dissasembling the tranny we were going to use the cutoff wheel and then smooth out the end of the shaft and camfer the end with a file. Since the bearing/bushing rides on the outer suface of the shaft, the rest is just for installation purposes.

01-29-2011, 10:01 PM	#4
dav Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 50	Re: How to remove a tranny input shaft? I didn't know a mustang 4 speed would bolt up to the y-block bell housing. All that you have to do is cut the front shaft about a half?. Really sounds good and it's still a Ford trans. What else is needed to complete the change over?. You have me interrested. Can you let us Ford Barners know?. Thank you.

01-30-2011, 01:09 PM	#5
Ralph Moore Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: North Pole, Alaska Posts: 1,470	Re: How to remove a tranny input shaft? We did all the measurements and so far the only other thing we've had to change is the outer diameter of the front bearing retainer/release bearing shaft. Sorry, I don't have the exact measurements in front of me. I guess you could enlarge the hole on the bell housing instead of trimming the bearing retainer, but it was easier to get a friend to chuck it up in a lathe and trim it. If my memory serves me I think we may have to drill one of the mounting holes into the bell housing as well. If you need all the exact specs, I'm sure my friend could whip up a CAD drawing.

01-30-2011, 01:42 PM	#6
dav Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 50	Re: How to remove a tranny input shaft? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) I'd like to have a drawing and any info as I would like to put a four speed in my 57 Ford and from what your saying it's now a hard thing to do. Any info along with pictures would be great. Here is my email address [email protected] Thanks

01-30-2011, 04:30 PM	#7
Ole Don Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: St. Michael, Minnesota Posts: 1,713	Re: How to remove a tranny input shaft? Ralph, the cut off is fine. Wrap the shaft with a wet rag to keep it cool. I like to bolt it all together with no clutch so I can look up inside with a mirrow to check that. Dont tighten the bolts to much, you could break off a tranny ear. I took my mainshaft off about 3/8 with a 4/12 inch grinder. To remove the input gear, you need to drop the cluster to the botton of the case.

01-30-2011, 04:57 PM	#8
dav Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 50	Re: How to remove a tranny input shaft? Just wondering do you have to take the front shaft out of the trans or can you just cut the 3/8" of the shaft? I understand that the front shaft has to be kept cool as it is cut. I don't want to take the trans apart. Can you help me out here.

01-30-2011, 08:04 PM	#9
Ole Don Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: St. Michael, Minnesota Posts: 1,713	Re: How to remove a tranny input shaft? Dont take it apart. Measure twice, cut once.

01-30-2011, 10:09 PM	#10
paul2748 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Midland Park, NJ Posts: 3,979	Re: How to remove a tranny input shaft? I put the same 4 speed against a YBlock. You do not need to pull out the input shaft. Just cut it with it in place. I think I took off 3/8 of an inch, but check this before any cutting. I think I used a dremel, then chamfered the end. like original. The front bearing retainer has to be cut a smidgen, but not enough that it interferes with the bolts holding it on. Have a machine shop do this. Measure the hole in the bellhousing for size or use a stock YBlock retainer for the measurement.

01-30-2011, 11:18 PM	#11
dav Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 50	Re: How to remove a tranny input shaft? How about the pressure plate and clutch disk, do I use the orignal pressure plate? how about the clutch disk? throw out bearing? also what about the crankshaft pilot bearing? can you help me out here?. Thank you.

01-31-2011, 09:25 AM	#12
Ralph Moore Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: North Pole, Alaska Posts: 1,470	Re: How to remove a tranny input shaft? Pilot bearing measures the same,use the mustang pressure plate/clutch disk setup, drill/tap new Press plate holes in flywheel if they don't line up. Were still in the eary stages of this conversion, so I could be wrong, but so far it looks like this is the way to go. We had a spare bell housing and took it to the machinist with the bearing retainer, he cut it to a slip fit.

01-31-2011, 10:04 AM	#13
dav Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 50	Re: How to remove a tranny input shaft? I have to buy a trans and the other parts needed can you tell me if other trans Ford or mustangs and yrs will work? I know your using the 1967 Mustang trans. Thanks

01-31-2011, 11:09 PM	#15
dav Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 50	Re: How to remove a tranny input shaft? I'm hopeing you have this info for this change over. You are using a 1967 Mustang transmission is it a toploader ? can you tell me what engine the trans came out of and what other Ford trans I can use, numbers. I really want to thank you for all your help and info. Thanks Again Dav

02-01-2011, 09:33 PM	#17
dav Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 50	Re: How to remove a tranny input shaft? A question I don't think I asked you?. What are putting the y-block and 4 speed transmission into?. Well the only thing left for me now is to find the right transmission I have seen prices that are reasonable to some that must be gold plated. Again thank you for the info that you have given to all the Fordbarners and me. Thanks Dav

02-02-2011, 01:49 PM	#18
Ralph Moore Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: North Pole, Alaska Posts: 1,470	Re: How to remove a tranny input shaft? It's going in his 1938 Deluxe Fordor.

02-02-2011, 09:26 PM	#20
dav Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 50	Re: How to remove a tranny input shaft? Just to let you know ! now I don't have a clue what trans to use. I'm going to have to find one so if I don't know what I'm lookin for I'm in trouble. Is there a way you could help me out here?. The chart is just a bunch of numbers to me I need some measurements so I can find the trans I need. Will this be possible?. Dav