Speaking of engines

[tomcarman]

I have this engine that I'd like some advice on. It has been in the garage for decades and I'd like to map out a plan for it. I'd like opinions on the approximate year. From what I can gather off Van Pelts it is somewhere between a '38 to '42? The bell housing is integral but there is no number cast into it. The only other numbers found are pictured. There are no visible cracks I can see. I only recently exhumed it and have not inspected it closely. It is on a home built roller stand and could easily be moved. It is stuck. There is a local shop with hot tanking available and I'm thinking for starters I could remove the intake manifold and have it tanked as is, pistons and all. I haven't even looked if the oil pan is on it but if it is I'd remove that too. If any have further questions on existing conditions of it or further advice please ask. My thinking at least as a start is to get it cleaned, then go from there. Thanks for any input.
Tom

[tubman]

Looks like it will pass the "Pencil Test". Have you measured the bore?

[tomcarman]

Originally Posted by tubman

Looks like it will pass the "Pencil Test". Have you measured the bore?

Not yet. Forgot to, DUH! I'll do that and report back.

[tubman]

I'm just an "8BA Guy", but don't the trapezoidal water passages mean something good?

[deuce lover]

Its clearly a 21 stud. 36 and earlier. If it was '38 it would have the water pumps in the block.Pull the intake and see if its a vented block.If so it might be an LB.

[V8COOPMAN]

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.

That's a 21-stud, with the noticeable LACK of water pumps. Gotta be a '36 or earlier engine. DD


OOPS: Late by a hair!
.

[Bored&Stroked]

My best seat of the pants guess is that it is a 36 engine. It appears to have steel pistons and if I'm correct, they were introduced in 36. As long as the block is good - would be a good engine to build! Best of luck . . .

[deuce lover]

Pistons are flat top.I believe 36 were domed although the engine could have been rebuilt sometime in its life and pistons replaced.

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by tubman

Looks like it will pass the "Pencil Test". Have you measured the bore?

Hey Tubman, the infamous 'Pencil Test' is related to 39 - 42 flatheads . . . do not believe it applies to these earlier 21 stud engines (I believe they ALL pass the test).

[AnthonyG]

WTH is the pencil test

[Kurt in NJ]

If it is a poured Babbitt engine hot tanking it will damage the Babbitt

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by AnthonyG

WTH is the pencil test

It describes one physical feature of a block which will aid in identifying differences between different year blocks.

In the first picture, note the flat lip formed directly above the camshaft/timing gear COVER location. It sticks-out far enough that a PENCIL will sit on it. '39-'42, 24-stud flatheads also have that lip which WILL support a pencil, thus passing the "pencil test", thus indicating a 24-stud block in the '39-'42 range.





There is no way that the lip on block behind this timing cover would support a pencil, indicating probably a '46-'48 24-stud engine. DD

[Ggmac]

21 stud , my lb has the same 15a casting . Not sure if that is positive proof but it could be .

[jimTN]

Just pull the pan and a main. Lots of changes occurred when rebuilders used what new parts they had on hand.

[cas3]

Is there a vent on the bottom, front of the oil pan? (pre 35 no vent), and If you can see a part number on the front water outlets, that may put a year on them anyway

[Flathead]

Main bearing journal diameter will narrow down the year.

[Brian]

Those front water outlets are 35

[cadillac512]

Please don't hot tank the engine assembled. Take it completely apart and tank what parts need to be cleaned that way and avoid damaging the rest. In addition, tanking an assembled (even partly) engine will be a complete mess of nasty oozing chemical,partially dissolved gunk and general nastiness that you'll regret.

[Ggmac]

What is the difference between 34, 35 ,and 36 ? I thought they were the same .

[Tinker]

Tried to upload Fred Mills evolution of the flathead. It's a PDF and may be to large? 3.8mb. Great details of the early fords only a few corrections. Guess I could email it to someone.


36 had cam bearings. 36LB no babbit.

[Tinker]

Found it online.


http://www.goldengatev8.org/tips/Evo...heFlathead.pdf

[tomcarman]

Thanks all for your input. I got called to an actual paying job so I didn't get a chance to further inspect the engine today. Being retired having a paying job for a few days is a real treat. I'll put the money into the Ford account for later use and maybe even buy a 6 pack of cheap beer. Right now even getting to the engine is a bit of a challenge so I'll report back on the findings when I can, likely with more pictures. I've been told by a well respected fellow Barner it was somewhere between a '33 to a '37. I'd like to narrow it down a bit more if possible so I'll take the preceding posts comments seriously upon further inspection. My Dad was a big time flat head guy, hence all my questions. Me, I might as well be Sgt. Schultz as "I know nothing!" I'd like to try and rebuild this at some point if the block checks out OK but for now I consider it a long term project. I'll report back with more info soon. Thanks again all!
Tom

[tomcarman]

Originally Posted by deuce lover

Its clearly a 21 stud. 36 and earlier. If it was '38 it would have the water pumps in the block.Pull the intake and see if its a vented block.If so it might be an LB.

One more question. What is an LB? I've seen it referenced but I don't know what it is.

[Tinker]

My understanding is Lined (removal) Bearings on the crank. Prior to the 36lb's the crank bearings are babbit.


Like most things ford of the area, just because it was made in 36 doesn't mean it's a 36lb. The production line moved and it was big. Lot of things ran out or was used before being changed over.


Reason my frame in 38 was already drilled for hydraulic brakes but was installed with cables. Ramping product at that scale is a system. Reason my 38 truck buckets are also the same as 36 cars. It was a big moving machine.



.

[Tinker]

Early 38 was a change over year also. After feb most 38s had 38 blocks with pumps in the block and 24 studs. Some received 37 blocks (a one yr with all the goodies for early blocks) into 38. Why the 37 blocks are neat. They are used for replacement blocks for early fords as they are 21 studs with all the goodies. With a block off plate you can run early heads and water pumps.


I couldn't find the the video were (think it was skip and gm) had a 37 motor with both block water pumps and head water pumps for fun. Still looking for it. Used to be a fun thing.


A old racer I knew said they would run 37 21 bolts with water pumps in the block and the early heads reversed to get water out of the back of the block faster. I thought he was full sh!t till I swapped heads on an old 35 motor. They will flip and bolt down. No idea how that effects compression chambers.


.

[deuce lover]

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Its not a '37.37's had the water pump in the block.Its 36 and earlier.Pull the intake to see if the block is vented (right front will be a vent tube)or look at the oil pan -front right at where it bolts to the block.The vent would be there.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Tinker

I couldn't find the the video were (think it was skip and gm) had a 37 motor with both block water pumps and head water pumps for fun. Still looking for it.

Voila! DD

[Tinker]

Think there is a video also. Think it was a marketing tool for a bit. Thanks DD!

[Bored&Stroked]

Two pumps HAVE to be better than one! LOL

[38 coupe]

The pdf article linked above is the short version of the thread we did on this website about a decade ago. If you really want to identify your engine read through the thread. I re-posted my pictures again at the bottom of the thread since photobucket decided they needed money for what they promised would be free and I don't feel like paying...
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25301

[deuce_roadster]

The quickest way to tell that is a 21 stud engine is that there is a head stud at the 6 oclock position at the bottom of EACH cylinder hole. That is DEFiNITELY a 21 stud engine.

[tomcarman]

Originally Posted by deuce_roadster

The quickest way to tell that is a 21 stud engine is that there is a head stud at the 6 oclock position at the bottom of EACH cylinder hole. That is DEFiNITELY a 21 stud engine.

Thanks Mike! Now I see it. I'd heard there was a quick way to tell but never had it explained like that. Not knowing much I always had to count the studs and usually got confused and had to start over. Maybe I can get out there tomorrow for further inspection and report back with more pics.

[deuce lover]

Another quick way is the bottom row of studs should be 5 for a 21 stud.

[cas3]

I always look at the center studs. 3 in a row vertical, 21 stud. An upside down Y 24 stud

[tomcarman]

I took a closer look and some more pics. It is 3 1/16" bore with a flat intake deck. There is a vent tube in the front passenger side shown. The oil pan is on it. I found the bent up clip looking thing inside the engine after I took the manifold off. Is that the distributor clip? I took pics of both water inlets. The manifold has the number 2 on it and the existing carb is a Stromberg. Thanks for your help.
Tom

[tomcarman]

A few more. As a conversion piece I found the water pump rebuild kit and added it for fun.

[Charlie ny]

Most outfits with a hot tank will not dunk an assembly. Any alum or babbitt will pollute
the liquid in the tank.
Charlie ny

[Zeke3]

It looks like the last guy that worked in that engine left his tool for pulling the valve guide retaining clips in there.

[tomcarman]

Originally Posted by Zeke3

It looks like the last guy that worked in that engine left his tool for pulling the valve guide retaining clips in there.

If you're referring to the clip I found in post #35 first pic I was looking to identify it. Is that what it is? BTW I'm pretty sure the last guy to work on it was my late Father and he most likely would have left it inside for use later. The intake manifold was completely loose and I merely lifted it off and found it.
Tom

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by deuce_roadster

The quickest way to tell that is a 21 stud engine is that there is a head stud at the 6 oclock position at the bottom of EACH cylinder hole. That is DEFiNITELY a 21 stud engine.

Originally Posted by deuce lover

Another quick way is the bottom row of studs should be 5 for a 21 stud.

Both great ways, on a glance, to tell whether its a 21 or 24 flathead.

I use the 3 down the middle vs 2 studs down the middle of the head method.

[deuce lover]

Thanks for the better pics.Might be an LB. Pull the pan and a main cap.

[Bored&Stroked]

You guys just need to learn to count to 21 . . . even if you need an extra finger or toe!

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by cas3

I always look at the center studs. 3 in a row vertical, 21 stud. An upside down Y 24 stud

Those are both good. Until now, I always looked for either TWO at each end (21-stud), or THREE at either end (24-stud).

Slight change of topic: Did anyone realize that V8-60 heads are the only V8-FLATHEADS with NO STUD above spark plug holes? DD
.

[cas3]

I did not know that. Seems an odd way to bolt down a head! Always learning on the barn, thanks

[tomcarman]

Thanks all for the excellent information and sources. Until I can pull the pan and inspect the bottom end we can conclude it's a '35/'36, unknown whether it's an LB or not. Another question is would this have had cast iron or aluminum heads from the factory? I have quite a stack of 21 stud heads and if possible I'd like the correct heads on it. Would the factory heads have any casting script or numbers on them? I can dig through the pile and see if I know what to look for.

[V8COOPMAN]

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Originally Posted by cas3

I did not know that. Seems an odd way to bolt down a head! Always learning on the barn, thanks

Here's a picture!! DD

[tomcarman]

I found this on Portland Oregon CL. Is this a V860? Also found another posting. Seriously?

https://portland.craigslist.org/clc/...435897792.html

https://portland.craigslist.org/clc/...433186624.html

[deuce lover]

Both listed correctly. Quite pricey for the '37 IMO.

[deuce lover]

Originally Posted by tomcarman

Thanks all for the excellent information and sources. Until I can pull the pan and inspect the bottom end we can conclude it's a '35/'36, unknown whether it's an LB or not. Another question is would this have had cast iron or aluminum heads from the factory? I have quite a stack of 21 stud heads and if possible I'd like the correct heads on it. Would the factory heads have any casting script or numbers on them? I can dig through the pile and see if I know what to look for.

Aluminum for pass car and cast iron for commercial from what I understand.OEM should have the part number embossed as well as Ford script. '35 prefix part number begins with 48, for example 48-6050 or 48-6049 in '36 it begins with 68 like 68-6050 or 68-6049.The '36 heads should be for domed pistons.

[tomcarman]

Originally Posted by deuce lover

Aluminum for pass car and cast iron for commercial.OEM should have the part number embossed as well as Ford script. '35 prefix part number begins with 48, for example 48-6050 or 48-6049 in '36 it begins with 68.like 68-6050 or 68-6049.

Thanks much. I'll report back.

[cas3]

Well, I am no expert, but the 2 oil ports on the rod journals is an 8ba crank, no? and no photo of a "magneto" , which would be worth some dough. I'd say he is one zero off market value

[tomcarman]

Originally Posted by cas3

Well, I am no expert, but the 2 oil ports on the rod journals is an 8ba crank, no? and no photo of a "magneto" , which would be worth some dough. I'd say he is one zero off market value

Battle ground is only about 80 miles from me. I'd be willing to go pick it up for you at his asking price. LOL

[jetwrench]

the engine in the picture 35 or earlier it would have the water pumps in the heads and if you take the pan off it should have babbit main bearings. I have built a few of these motors.