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11-19-2013, 06:19 PM | #1 |
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Broken head studs
I know! here we go again. But all I would like to know is what size are the holes in the heads so i can get the right drill guides. I would like to try drilling the broken head studs. I would like to start with a 1/8 in. drill. I have about 8 to drill out in 3 blocks. Thanks Richard
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11-19-2013, 07:22 PM | #2 |
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Re: Broken head studs
Richard, can't help you with the sizes, but be sure to use a fairly powerful drill motor, that turns QUITE SLOW!! Bill W.
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11-19-2013, 09:50 PM | #3 |
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Re: Broken head studs
Well it depends, anything under 7/16 but I would try to weld the washer & nut onto the broken stud first before drilling as many blocks have been damaged by a mis-aligned drill. This is an area where experience is your friend. When I need to drill one, I do it in my mill where I have control.
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11-19-2013, 10:04 PM | #4 |
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Re: Broken head studs
Yes, what Brent said, weld a large flat washer to the stud, then weld a nut to the flat washer. The two heat cycles will do a lot to help break it loose so you can back it out with the nut. If it breaks then weld it a second time. Has always worked for my on one or two welds.
I've also drilled them and one time a small bit caught and broke. I had to use a diamond bit in my Dremel to grind it out. I just would drill slow and easy and keep increasing the bit size until you just start to see the threads. Then use a pick to start pulling out the threads. A tap can also grab the threads and pull them out sometimes. |
11-19-2013, 11:00 PM | #5 |
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Re: Broken head studs
Brattons has a tool kit to accurately drill out a broken stud. Their part number is 08235. It works great. Good luck with your project. Don/WI
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11-20-2013, 12:49 AM | #6 |
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Re: Broken head studs
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heres a link to Vince's site on how best to perform this task: http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/studremoval.htm |
11-20-2013, 01:02 AM | #7 |
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Re: Broken head studs
I work on my cars as much as I can, but any of this kind of work is beyond my skill level. I just took my block into a machine shop and let them figure it out. When I weigh the aggravation, lack of welding experience, potential for trouble, and the cost for the special tools, I figure I'm ahead. I'm a big believer in letting professionals do professional work. If the engine's still in the car, though, you've got a different problem than mine.
"A man has to know his limitations." — Dirty Harry
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11-20-2013, 02:45 AM | #8 |
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Re: Broken head studs
I also weld a nut when possible when I can not weld a nut I use a old cylinder head as a guide and use left hand drill bits marked for correct depth
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11-20-2013, 11:20 AM | #9 |
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Re: Broken head studs
Thanks all of you for your great advice. I would like to use the welding method but I only have an arc welder.Would a arc welder work? I have been putting Kroil on them every time I get around them for the last week.
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11-20-2013, 12:01 PM | #10 |
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Re: Broken head studs
I've never had any luck with the washer and nut way. I use the head as a guide. I use the kit from Bratton. I then use the cutting torch to melt and blow the remaining steel threads out of the cast iron threads in the block. The torch doesn't damage the cast iron threads in the block. The torch only melts the steel threads. Its a nerve wracking job but works well for me.
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11-20-2013, 12:05 PM | #11 | |
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Re: Broken head studs
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I realize this will come off as sounding biased but there really is no harm or shame in seeking a professional when circumstances like this arise. A professional machine shop will use an EDM or the welding trick and extract it for you without any damage. Often times the price with be from $25 - $50. |
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11-21-2013, 03:40 PM | #12 | |
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Re: Broken head studs
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NOT recommending this, But I've seen my friend, Ron, BLOW a 1/2" broken stud from a block, without even drilling, with a light duty cutting torch & the threads were left intact, with only a few tiny dingle berries left, that were removed easily with a pick! Cleaned the threads with a bottoming tap, & PERFECT!! AGAIN, I DON'T GENERALLY RECOMMEND THIS FOR THE NOVICE OR THE FAINT OF HEART!! Ron's had years of experience doin' this!-----Bill W.
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11-21-2013, 03:53 PM | #13 |
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Re: Broken head studs
I had a neighbor use his mig welder to get mine out. Two were broken off flush with the block or slightly below, the other was broken off about a quarter inch above the block. It took him a few tries but he was able to weld a nut on there and extract the stud with no damage to the block. I think this method is much more desirable than attempting to drill it out.
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11-21-2013, 05:51 PM | #14 | |
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Re: Broken head studs
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Bill, I have no doubt that it would work. Using drill guide bushings with the head makes drilling out most of the stud much easier. I don't have nearly as much molten metal flying when I blow the rest of the threads out with the torch. Its hard to do without getting burned a little. It can also be DANE-JUS !!!!!!! I wouldn't want to ass around and burn the shop. |
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10-29-2014, 12:04 PM | #15 |
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Re: Broken head studs
Figured I'd pull this thread up to the top. I've been attempting to use my wire welder to remove some broken studs. Having a hard time keeping the nuts from just snapping off after I weld them on. Welder is Hobart 140 w/flux core. I'm about ready to give up, pull the engine, and put in small block Chevy. Any helpful hints?
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10-29-2014, 12:43 PM | #16 |
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Re: Broken head studs
Is the washer breaking off also??
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10-29-2014, 12:45 PM | #17 | |
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Re: Broken head studs
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Well, if you are going to pull engine anyway, and that's what I'd do in your case..i.e.- broken head studs. Then ,if you do pull engine, take the block to a shop that has an Electrical Discharge Machine. They can vaporize those studs and not even damage the threads...hard to believe, but true ! I have a shop close to home and found that that shop is a wonder/blessing both. Turns out they can do a number of services..and CHEAP, by comparison ...to buying expensive tools, learning to use them correctly/expertly, etc.... |
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10-29-2014, 12:46 PM | #18 |
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Re: Broken head studs
I don't like flux core, but turn the heat way up to max and slow the wire speed so you get the stud hotter. I have gas shield and the welded nut and washer has always worked for me. Sometimes the nut may snap on the first try, but it has always worked on one or two tries for me.
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10-29-2014, 02:40 PM | #19 |
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Re: Broken head studs
Yes. Can't seem to get a good weld onto what's left of the studs.
I'm wondering if it's rust/oil contaminating my welds. I tried to get the remnants of suds clean as possible, but it's hard to grind when they're right at or just below the block surface. All my attempts so far I've tacked the washer to what's left of the stud, and then filled the nut with weld. I tried more heat, but the washers would burn through. |
10-29-2014, 02:42 PM | #20 |
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Re: Broken head studs
hardtimes, what's the going rate per hole on EDM in your area? I'm in a small town, so it may not be an option anyway.
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10-29-2014, 02:52 PM | #21 |
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Re: Broken head studs
Sounds like you are welding the center of the nut, you want
to weld around the outside of the nut. Vince has pictures on his site, see the link. http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/studremoval.htm Bob |
10-29-2014, 04:33 PM | #22 |
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Re: Broken head studs
Also be sure to use a large nut, like a 5/8" inside diameter. I do like Ray, except I haven't used water nor an impact wrench. I like to feel what's happening by using a box wrench. The nuts I use usually take a 3/4" wrench.
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10-29-2014, 04:44 PM | #23 |
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Re: Broken head studs
I back using the head as a template. Make up a few sleeves with OD the same as the stud hole in the head and ID gradually increasing for the drill size you want to use. Put the other studs back in and bolt the head down. Now use your sleeves to guide the drill down the centre of the broken stud. You might have to take the head off a few times to check your progress, especially when you are getting close but after 85 years, a few more minutes doesn't matter.
As a last resort, Helicoils work well so don't despair if it doesn't seem to be going well. |
10-29-2014, 05:38 PM | #24 |
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Re: Broken head studs
Sounds like I may need smaller washers and bigger nuts. The washers I was using were only a little smaller than the studs, and the nuts weren't big enough to do anything other than shoot the wire right down the center.
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10-29-2014, 06:43 PM | #25 | |
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Re: Broken head studs
Quote:
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10-29-2014, 07:01 PM | #26 |
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Re: Broken head studs
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10-29-2014, 07:15 PM | #27 |
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Re: Broken head studs
I've used the torch to melt and blow out the steel threads after drilling as far as possible without getting in to the cast iron threads in the block . I've used this method since the mid ninties and never a problem. I always chase the threads afterward to clean them up, then blow out the holes wiith compressed air. A guy from Burkes mechanical showed me this method and I've never looked back . Sometimes all of the studs can be removed without breaking a single one if you are real lucky. An engine that still has the studs that came from the factory will usually have at least two to break off in the block. In most cases the studs will break at the rear of the engine and cause the engine to have to be removed . Some are just too quick to remove a head that really doesn't even need to be removed in the first place. I've often seen where others would figure that the head gasket was blown because water would spray out around the radiator cap when accellerating or climbing a hill, this is usually caused by an over pumping water pump and a half stopped up radiator. Usually they dispair when the studs start snapping and wish that they had left well enough alone. The washer and nut method never worked for me. If you've got to try it three or four times and it still doesn't work, I figure why waste the time. Most probably end up trying to find a shop that is willing to remove the broken studs .
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10-29-2014, 07:23 PM | #28 |
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Re: Broken head studs
Use a fender washer, they have a large OD and a small hole.
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10-29-2014, 08:26 PM | #29 |
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Re: Broken head studs
fender washer X 2
flux core wire is a low grade product. Can you set your machine up for a bottle? All it takes is a bottle of argon-CO2 and reverse the polarity of the leads inside the case. In fact look at the diagram inside the case and be sure it is set up right for even flux core! I have seen many ppl have the leads reversed out. The only time I couldn't get the weld-washer-nut trick to work (actually I hardly ever use the washer and just weld inside the nut) was when the stud was a grade 8. You need low hydrogen rod/wire to weld grade 8 else it will snap right off. I do not have any 8000 series MIG wire (low hydrogen) , only 7000 series. Maybe someday I will get a small spool for these cases. Whenever I mention this there is a hot shot who jumps on here and tells me he can weld anything with 6013 stick. Which is so bogus as to not be funny. I have been welding literally since I was 5. If this guy shows up, many he would be willing to drive over to your place and weld 'er up
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10-29-2014, 08:34 PM | #30 |
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Re: Broken head studs
Fender washers won't work, the hole is too small and generally, too thin. I have removed many by lots of methods. The method I like best is to weld a 1/2" flat washer to the broken stud after I heat the area surrounding the stud. I have found the block will wick the heat out of the weld and it won't hold. Heating the block at the stud cures this. After the washer is welded, I weld a head nut to it on three sides and flood the area with my favorite penetrant. An impact will usually bring the stud right out. Last week I was brought an engine from a modern with a broken bolt in a recessed hole. The biggest problem with this engine other than it being broken down in the recess and having a broken "easy out" in it was the block was aluminum so, no welding. I tried several different drill bits with no success. This was attributed to the piece of broken easy out. As a last ditch effort, I decided to see what a 3/8" carbide end mill would do. Some careful drilling with the end mill and the top of the bolt began to flatten and the easy out began to cut. I cut it till I felt the bolt move and checked it till I saw the easy out was gone. I drilled it with a starter drill and then a smaller bit and used a large easy out to just remove it. Didn't even scuff the threads and the engine is now back in service. You just have to be willing to use anything at hand to try and get the stud to move. Just be careful and I don't recommend using easy outs, they cause more work and trouble than they fix.
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10-29-2014, 08:44 PM | #31 |
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Re: Broken head studs
McMaster-Carr has fender washer for up to 1" fasteners
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10-29-2014, 09:50 PM | #32 | |
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Re: Broken head studs
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10-31-2014, 07:04 AM | #33 |
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Re: Broken head studs
Here's a broken bolt I removed from an aluminum jack earlier this summer. This was my fault for trying to remove the bolt without removing the steel roll pin first. I didn't see the roll pin driven into the side of the aluminum, and I snapped off the head while trying to remove the bolt. After welding the washer and nut on I forced it out but gummed up the threads when I forced it past the roll pin. It was lony after the broken bolt was removed that I finally spotted the small hole in the aluminum with the roll pin driven in.
I hold the wire feed in the center of the washer and nut and let the liquid steel flow out to fill the hole. This way it puts the most heat on the broken bolt. |
10-31-2014, 12:03 PM | #34 |
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Re: Broken head studs
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10-31-2014, 01:38 PM | #35 |
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Re: Broken head studs
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10-31-2014, 03:52 PM | #36 |
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Re: Broken head studs
At this point I would take the bare block to the machine shop,they will probably charge at least $15.00- $25.00 for each stud,and have them chase all the stud holes.
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10-31-2014, 06:28 PM | #37 |
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Re: Broken head studs
Engine is still in the car. If it comes out, it may not go back in. Especially if the flathead in the 41 Ford I bought a few days ago turns out crack-free.
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10-31-2014, 06:32 PM | #38 |
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Re: Broken head studs
Thanks. That's what I tried before, but never got it to stick well. Will try cleaning more and get good, bright metal at the studs. I think contamination of weld has been causing my issue. May also try different washers with larger OD.
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10-31-2014, 07:17 PM | #39 |
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Re: Broken head studs
please remember that a flux core weld is a very weak weld. Please consider upgrading to a gas-shielded system. All it takes is one bottle of argon-CO2 available at any welding supply such as AirGas. Google welding supply for your local area there will be several of them.
Also, you can not usually get flux core wire less than .030. This size is too big for what you want to do. You need to use .023 or .025 diam. wire with a bottle. With the right equipment this is an easy job. If you can weld with flux core you can certainly MIG weld with a bottle. I promise you that you will never go back. Flux core is a technology left over from ancient Egypt in the tombs of the pyramids when they tried to weld wood together. At best it barely gets you by to weld fence posts. You can also practice. Take a handful of 1/2" nuts, and some washers, and practice on a piece of 1/8 inch sheet metal or scrap laying around until you get the knack of welding in the hole of a washer, and around the outside of the nut
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10-31-2014, 07:55 PM | #40 |
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Re: Broken head studs
Tbird is exactly right, and I'll bet that's the reason it hasn't worked for you.
My friend has a flux core welder and I tried it about 10 years ago. There's no way I would own one, and I paid the extra to buy a Lincoln SP-135, which works well on steel up to 1/8". If I preheat the steel I can even go up to 1/4". At the local high school I used their larger 220 volt Hobart wire welders and sure liked them, but I wouldn't use it enough to justify the cost. |
10-31-2014, 08:38 PM | #41 |
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Re: Broken head studs
Your problem is probably caused by the block cast iron heat sinking the temp out and the weld not penetrating. Try heating the area around the stud and the stud slightly orange and immediately lay a plain steel washer with a 1/2 inch hole on the stud and weld it as fast as you can. Weld an old clean head nut to the washer and use an impact to remove it. Works for me every time.
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10-31-2014, 08:42 PM | #42 | |
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Re: Broken head studs
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11-01-2014, 12:44 PM | #43 |
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Re: Broken head studs
Welder came with them, I just haven't bought a bottle of gas yet. I'm not a fan of the flux core, but it's what I have in the shop right now. Gotta save my pennies for a while.
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11-03-2014, 02:59 AM | #44 |
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Re: Broken head studs
The washer and welded nut trick works pretty good, I heat it up and then hit it with water,
it works very well. That said I have gone to drilling in the mill if I have more than one to do in a block. I had a Desoto block the owner had tried to remove his own studs and had broken six of them off in the block. If you use a mill with a DRO (digital readout) you can accurately hit every stud. I use an end mill to flatten the broken stud off. Then center drill the stud, then hit it with an end mill to get the stud out. I did all six in about a half hour. |
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