Voltage Regulator

[Wisconsinjimmy]

I am confused as my engines generator has a regulator mounted on it and it is round, the fire wall also has a regulator on it that is rectangular with five wires two each side and one on the bottom which I think is the feed, is this factory?

[huddy]

Stock As don't have a regulator. The generator uses a third brush to control field current, so it's not really regulated per se. It depends on the load of the battery to keep the voltage in range. NEVER, NEVER run it without a battery.

Unless you have a really early A, you probably have a cylindrical generator. If it's a short can like one, it's a Powerhouse (and I don't know much about those).

The cylindrical object on top of the generator is cutout, which is essentially a relay that disconnects the battery from the generator when it's not running. Otherwise the battery would try to motor the generator against engine compression and Bad Things could happen, the least of which is running your battery down.

The rectangular box is probably the terminal box on the firewall. Right in the center, has two brass half-thumbscrews holding it in place. The two terminals are wired to the corresponding terminals on the ammeter. One side of box has 6v from the battery (via the starter) and the other terminal goes to the coil (-) terminal via a black wire, as well as the cutout terminal on the generator. Most other items (lights, horn, etc) tie into 6v via the cutout terminal on the generator.

Hope this helps. If you'd like I could scan a diagram for you.

Rgds
Ed

[huddy]

Oh, yeah: the wire on the bottom. Depending if you have a pop out ignition switch, that's probably the wire from the switch to the distributor.

[Wisconsinjimmy]

The rectangular box is probably the terminal box on the firewall. Right in the center, has two brass half-thumbscrews holding it in place. The two terminals are wired to the corresponding terminals on the ammeter. One side of box has 6v from the battery (via the starter) and the other terminal goes to the coil (-) terminal via a black wire, as well as the cutout terminal on the generator. Most other items (lights, horn, etc) tie into 6v via the cutout terminal on the generator.

You are thinking about the junction block on the firewall this is a tin box screwed to the driver side firewall, could it be the cutout quit working and a new style regulator was installed? Thanks for the wire diagram offer but I have one.

[Mike V. Florida]

Is the the box on the wall?

It is the terminal box as stated above.

And this should be the the can on the generator.


Again, as stated it is the cut out. The generator will act like a motor if power is applied to it. So, to keep this from happening it "cuts out" the voltage from getting back to the generator when the generator is not running.

To help you wire things up you need a wiring diagram. Rather than put the wiring diagram image here, here is the link.

wiring diagram

[huddy]

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Originally Posted by Wisconsinjimmy

The rectangular box is probably the terminal box on the firewall. Right in the center, has two brass half-thumbscrews holding it in place. The two terminals are wired to the corresponding terminals on the ammeter. One side of box has 6v from the battery (via the starter) and the other terminal goes to the coil (-) terminal via a black wire, as well as the cutout terminal on the generator. Most other items (lights, horn, etc) tie into 6v via the cutout terminal on the generator.

You are thinking about the junction block on the firewall this is a tin box screwed to the driver side firewall, could it be the cutout quit working and a new style regulator was installed? Thanks for the wire diagram offer but I have one.

Well, that's definitely not stock. Can you post a picture? Sounds like it might be a voltage regulator - perhaps at some point someone put on a newer style generator. Can you remove the cover and look inside? VRs look like a relay with usually three wires, armature, field, & battery (as I recall from my Hudson). Could have fourth wire for a light. Labelled A, F, B, & T.

[Joe K]

One of my spare firewalls has a rectangular METAL box mounted on it which I took to be a VR (since it has a relay and contacts inside and an adjustment screw obviously designed to change the "pull in" voltage.)

The original VRs were "electro-mechanical."

Joe K

[huddy]

The really old ones didn't have a screw - you had to bend the contacts to adjust the output.

[huddy]

Also I dunno if you could add an external regulator by removing the third brush and wiring the field to the F terminal (along with the A & B terms to their respective places). Anybody know?

[Purdy Swoft]

The third brush wouldn't need to be removed, it could still be used to adjust for maximum charge rate. You would need to run the ground from the field coils inside the generator to the field terminal on the box style regulator, this would allow the generator to cycle from low to higher amps on demand. It would be easier if you used the model 46 generator that had two wires instead of a post terminal. The model 46 generator was sold as a replacement by Ford and others for the model A. The wire that would normally be grounded under the leg of the cutout would need to connect to the field terminal of the regulator.

[Wisconsinjimmy]

I know the one on the firewall is a regulator and from what I have read the part on the gen is a cut out.
http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/wi...c0c81.jpg.html
http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/wi...26b28.jpg.html

[Bob C]

The regulator was probably used with a later two brush generator, you
don't need it with your generator.
It looks like you have the wire on the wrong side of the cutout. Also do not run
the engine without having the generator hooked to the battery or you run the chance
of burning it up.
It also looks like the light switch is installed wrong.

Bob

[Purdy Swoft]

The easiest way to run a voltage regulator with the model A generator is to use all original style wiring harnesses and a Fun Projects can style regulator that replaces the cutout.

Before the three different style voltage regulators that are now offered for the model A type generators were available, Some people that knew how could wire the box style regulator to work with the original generator and could be run 6 or 12 volt depending on the regulator.. most mounted the regulator on the firewall. Some hid the regulator under the seat. I suppose that this type stuff is concidered a dark art and should be avoided unless you know what you are doing. If you had a problem, you would have to know how to fix it yourself or you would probably be SOL.

[Wisconsinjimmy]

Let me ask this, on the cut out which is mounted to the generator with two screws now standing on the driver side looking at the gen and cut out there is one screw on the front of the cut out and on the rear is a stud and nut. From my harness I have two wires bundled together with a round connecter crimped to each wire, does this go to the stud on the generator? The screw on the front of the cut out is there supposed to be a wire on this? Somehow I need power to the generator and if I come of the terminal blocks driver side and touch the stud on the generator or anywhere for that matter I get a short.

[Purdy Swoft]

I'm not familiar with the two coil type regulator that is pictured. The cutout connects on one end to the post on the generator. the connection on the other end of the cutout will need a hot wire connected to it. When the generator turns fast enough to charge, the points in the cutout should close and allow power to flow back through the hot wire to the battery. I used the three coil regulator and the cutout was not used. your set up is different.

[Wisconsinjimmy]

So I need a hot to the screw on the front of the cut out, that might be a problem as I do not see any insulator on or around that side. Back to the bench to figure out how this other regulator works, it appears the hot comes in at the bottom so I go from there.

[Bob C]

There should be three wires hooked to the screw on the front of the cutout, one for the horn,
one for the light switch , and a hot one from the terminal box. You don't need that voltage regulator
on the firewall with the generator you have.

Bob

[jmeckel]

Your after market regulator may have a cut out as part of it. That is why whoever did it the change bypassed the stock one on the generator. If it was me I would test the stock cut out if it works, I would return the wiring to normal by removing the old after market regulator. If the old wiring is bad you can just have a wire running from the generator cut out to the bolt on the starter switch were your battery cable connects. Very simple and would take less time than tracing out the old firewall mounted regulator. If the generator does not work, there is a very good generator / alternator repair shop on hwy 35 on the south end of Centuria WI. He also could sell you a 6 volt positive ground alternator at a good price if you wanted to go that way.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Bob C, Thanks for the cutaway generator pic, it helps showa LOT of stuff!

Jmeckel, You mentioned the cut out hot wire goes to the starter switch cable. REMEMBER, that wire first goes to the junction box, then makes a loop up through the ammeter, back to the other junction box terminal, THEN down to the starter switch cable. Bill W.

[Wisconsinjimmy]

Darn hope it is not to large, but does this make sense, the screw or terminal on the front of the cutout is where the 6 volts comes in and the back terminal (stud) is where the lights and horn connect? If I use a jumper from the front terminal to the rear terminal I get nothing is this a sign of no good cutout?

[Wisconsinjimmy]

Ok I got it now takes awhile with a froze brain, all the wires horn-lights-hot go on the front terminal of the cut out and nothing goes on the rear terminal, now it was mentioned my light switch is on wrong???

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Bob C, Thanks for the cutaway generator pic, it helps showa LOT of stuff!

Jmeckel, You mentioned the cut out hot wire goes to the starter switch cable. REMEMBER, that wire first goes to the junction box, then makes a loop up through the ammeter, back to the other junction box terminal, THEN down to the starter switch cable. Bill W.

I stole the cutaway picture somebody else posted earlier, maybe Tom W?

Bob

[Purdy Swoft]

Yo brother Bill, You are right. There is a yellow wire that goes from the post on the starter switch and connects to the passenger side post in the terminal box. Then a yellow wire runs from the passenger side post in the terminal box to the passenger side post off the ammeter. A yellow wire with a black tracer runs from the drivers side post of the ammeter out to the drivers side post of the terminal box. Originally there would have been a yellow with black tracer wire that run from the drivers side post of the terminal box to the front terminal of the cutout and this was a hot wire. Running a wire from the cutout to the post on the starter would have the same effect as the yellow with black tracer wire from the drivers side post of the terminal box would if it was still present. this would put the generator in the circuit. If it worked he could just forget the regulator on the firewall. If I was hooking up a three coil box regulator to a model A type generator I would do this. I would connect the ground wire from the field coils to the field terminal on the regulator. I would run a wire from the post on the generator to the arm terminal of the regulator. I would then run a wire from the Bat terminal of the regulator down to the post on the starter switch and that would work. I don't have any experience with a setup like jimmy has pictured. If the generator will motor when a hot wire is touched to the generator post, the easiest thing to do would be to install a good cutout or a can style regulator and forget the other regulator.

[Bob C]

It may be the picture but it looks like the switch needs to be turned
90° to the right.

Bob

[Wisconsinjimmy]

Here is what I think you are trying to explain to me, do I have this right? Also if I ground the test light to the body and with the light switch on and I touch the chrome on the light bucket the test light will come on is this OK?

[Wisconsinjimmy]

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Originally Posted by Bob C

It may be the picture but it looks like the switch needs to be turned
90° to the right.

Bob

Let me ask you this, on the steering column is the light switch all the way up for off?

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by Wisconsinjimmy

Darn hope it is not to large, but does this make sense, the screw or terminal on the front of the cutout is where the 6 volts comes in and the back terminal (stud) is where the lights and horn connect? If I use a jumper from the front terminal to the rear terminal I get nothing is this a sign of no good cutout?

The way you have it pictured is correct. The headlamp and horn wires should connect to the front of the cutout. You can either run a wire from the drivers side post in the terminal box to the front of the cutout or a wire from the post on the starter switch to the front of the cutout and it will give the same function.

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by Wisconsinjimmy

Let me ask you this, on the steering column is the light switch all the way up for off?

The lever should point straight down when the headlamps are off. One click to the left will be on for the park or cowl lamps.You should have two clicks to the right for bright and dim for the headlamps.

[Bob C]

Also if I ground the test light to the body and with the light switch on and I touch the chrome on the light bucket the test light will come on is this OK?

No, sound like the headlight is not grounded properly.

Bob

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Wisconsinjimmy

Here is what I think you are trying to explain to me, do I have this right? Also if I ground the test light to the body and with the light switch on and I touch the chrome on the light bucket the test light will come on is this OK?

NO. it means the headlamps aren't getting a good ground, You probably need to remove the lamp and clean the pivot pockets for each lamp. It may also be a poor ground inside the bucket.

[Wisconsinjimmy]

Ok thanks guys maybe I have a fighting chance with this creature as I need the lights to work to keep the WI State Police happy when they inspect the car for title application. I just hope he does not want to see the frame # as that would will be a major pain.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

Yo brother Bill, You are right. There is a yellow wire that goes from the post on the starter switch and connects to the passenger side post in the terminal box. Then a yellow wire runs from the passenger side post in the terminal box to the passenger side post off the ammeter. A yellow wire with a black tracer runs from the drivers side post of the ammeter out to the drivers side post of the terminal box. Originally there would have been a yellow with black tracer wire that run from the drivers side post of the terminal box to the front terminal of the cutout and this was a hot wire. Running a wire from the cutout to the post on the starter would have the same effect as the yellow with black tracer wire from the drivers side post of the terminal box would if it was still present. this would put the generator in the circuit. If it worked he could just forget the regulator on the firewall. If I was hooking up a three coil box regulator to a model A type generator I would do this. I would connect the ground wire from the field coils to the field terminal on the regulator. I would run a wire from the post on the generator to the arm terminal of the regulator. I would then run a wire from the Bat terminal of the regulator down to the post on the starter switch and that would work. I don't have any experience with a setup like jimmy has pictured. If the generator will motor when a hot wire is touched to the generator post, the easiest thing to do would be to install a good cutout or a can style regulator and forget the other regulator.

Purdy, Buster T. just suggested, since Vermin has a 2 wire generator, if we could find a trick place to "hide" a 3 coil regulator, we could be chargin' SAFELY, without always playing with the 3rd brush or runnin' with the lights on. He also gave me HELL for throwing the chop sticks away when we had Chinese food last week! He said, "Them's Model A tools"!! The Dog's a HOARDER! He also chastised me for using up YOUR coffee cans to pick up his DOOLIES! AND, he said, "You ain't gonna' use those 'DOOLIE tongs' in the kitchen again, ur you?? He's like a NAGGING wife. Bill W.

[jmeckel]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Bob C, Thanks for the cutaway generator pic, it helps showa LOT of stuff!

Jmeckel, You mentioned the cut out hot wire goes to the starter switch cable. REMEMBER, that wire first goes to the junction box, then makes a loop up through the ammeter, back to the other junction box terminal, THEN down to the starter switch cable. Bill W.

Yes that is right, my point was that if the existing wiring was bad that is a quick way to wire it that will work, not the right way but it will work for getting things going.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Bob C

I stole the cutaway picture somebody else posted earlier, maybe Tom W?

Bob

Yes, that was one of several pictures I took of the cutaway chassis at the new Model A museum. Be sure to check it out when you are near Grand Rapid, MI.

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Purdy, Buster T. just suggested, since Vermin has a 2 wire generator, if we could find a trick place to "hide" a 3 coil regulator, we could be chargin' SAFELY, without always playing with the 3rd brush or runnin' with the lights on. He also gave me HELL for throwing the chop sticks away when we had Chinese food last week! He said, "Them's Model A tools"!! The Dog's a HOARDER! He also chastised me for using up YOUR coffee cans to pick up his DOOLIES! AND, he said, "You ain't gonna' use those 'DOOLIE tongs' in the kitchen again, ur you?? He's like a NAGGING wife. Bill W.

Bill, Maybe you can hide it on the back side of the firewall or under the package tray. There won't be room under your swivel seats. The Fun projects can style regulator would be the cleanest easiest way to go and require less wire. No worry about the coffee cans, I've still got a right smart of them.

[Wisconsinjimmy]

What about the frame rail?

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

Bill, Maybe you can hide it on the back side of the firewall or under the package tray. There won't be room under your swivel seats. The Fun projects can style regulator would be the cleanest easiest way to go and require less wire. No worry about the coffee cans, I've still got a right smart of them.

We could hide a whole PASSEL of "secretive" stuff under the swivel seat panel. The seat panel opens forward with a BRASS piano hinge & it's held open with an adjustable bicycle kick stand! The riser will hold our jack, pump, & ALL our tools & spare parts. (We didn't want all our "stuff" RUMBLING around in the back)
Bill W.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Wisconsinjimmy

What about the frame rail?

Yep, Jimbo, that would work! I "hid" Minerva's electric fuel pump in the R/H frame rail, without drilling a hole to "weaken" the frame, even! Bill W.

[Wisconsinjimmy]

Well time to go out and be a gangster got the lights working, had to run ground wire from gen to the lights. Thank you gentelman