Engine Oil

[wi0v]

I am sure this subject has been discussed before, but I couldn't find anything about it. The last model A I owned was in 1959, until this week when I purchased a 28 Town Sedan.

Anyway, in 1959 we were told to run only non-detergent oil. What is the current thinking.

Gary Danford
Alamo, Texas

[Mitch//pa]

my thinking is if the internal of the engine is sludgy than stick with the non-detergent. if the engine is clean inside than use detergent. i have taken off the valve cover and oil pan and cleaned out the sludge in the valve area, crankcase and pan and then switched to detergent. OKAY LET IT RIP GUYS

[MrTube]

I'm doing the same as Mitch, tearing the cover and pan off and cleaning and then going to detergent 20W50.

[J Franklin]

Clean it up and then go to a good grade oil. Detergent oil is for cars with filters, which are available after-market. Non-detergent is for cars without a filter. I think detergent oil is also ok for non filtered cars (my opinion).

[ford1]

clean the engine like the others said, and while your doing that look at and think what non dertergent oil has done to the engine, and detergent oil will not harm babbit, modern car bearings have a thin coat of babbit on the wear surface and some run 200,000 miles using detergent oil, just because your car is about 80 years old dosnt mean you should run oil with 80 year technoligy, use detergent oil with or with out the filter, just change fairly often

[ford1]

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Mitch, you and i are going to catch hell for being so stupid to use a far superior product in our cars, ignore them , if left to those guys we would still be using straigt cut gears in the trans, torque tubes, mechanical brakes, and hand operated winshield wipers, they have heard so many old wifes tails that they take them as absolute truth

[J Franklin]

In Texas you can run single 30 weight oil with no problems.

[Dennis L Oberer]

What did the previous owner run in the engine?

The A is a pretty forgiving engine...............

I think non detergent oil is for air compressors.

You need to hold the contaminants in suspension and that is what detergent oil does...whether there is an oil filter or not.

I have ALWAYS run detergent oil (usually straight 30 weight) for only 45 years now in the A's and never had a problem yet.

Remember this....ANY oil you use today is light years better than the stuff available back in the day.

Straight weight 30 will do just fine.



Dennis L Oberer
Green Bay WI

[kevinmac/toledo]

i use the rotella , becuase it still has a little zinc in it to prevent camshaft wear... newer cars have all roller compoments nowjust my humble /but honest opinion

[Mitch Bunkin in PA]

When my engine was rebuilt at Schwalm's, I was advised to use 15W40. I use Shell Rotella.

[Mitch//pa]

the original post asks about non detergent vs detergent. it seems most so far have a common agreement as to that answer and why. what viscosity was not asked which can open up a whole new can of worms so i am staying out of that. thats why they make chocolate and vanilla.

[MrTube]

Mitch, No... The reason they make chocolate and vanilla is so I can have my favorite milkshake, a black and white.

Silly people..

[Mike V. Florida]

As you can see you can use any oil you want, single weight, multi weight, detergent, non detergent, synthetic. It is real hard to screw this one up.

Let me add this. The thoughts behind the detergent debate are that the non detergent oil allow the particles to settle to the bottom of the pan while the oil waits to be pumped up. These particles are then drained out during the oil change.

Detergent oil allows these particles to stay in suspension and in a modern car to be filtered. In the A, the particles will not settle and cause sludge.

You decide which you want to use as any oil is far superior to any thing made back then.

[wi0v]

Well now I am confused, some for detergent, some for Rotella, some for multi-weight,and some for regular old 30W. Since I'm a simple fella, I will probably just use the simple 30W detergent. A combination of most of the reply's.

Thanks for the great responses,

[johnbuckley]

Yeah, it's mostly opinion. As was said modern oil is far superior than stuff from the 1930s.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by wi0v

Well now I am confused, some for detergent, some for Rotella, some for multi-weight,and some for regular old 30W. Since I'm a simple fella, I will probably just use the simple 30W detergent. A combination of most of the reply's.

Thanks for the great responses,

Wise Choice, Herm.

[Bill Steiner]

I use 30W detergent . No filter. Bill

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by wi0v

Well now I am confused, some for detergent, some for Rotella, some for multi-weight,and some for regular old 30W. Since I'm a simple fella, I will probably just use the simple 30W detergent. A combination of most of the reply's.

Thanks for the great responses,

There is no reason to be confused, ANY type of oil will work and work well in the Model A.

And as for the typical Hot Rodder statement "...if left to those guys we would still be using straigt cut gears in the trans, torque tubes, mechanical brakes, and hand operated winshield wipers,..."

Most of us have chosen the Model A and the "technology" that goes along with it. Yes I choose a Model A with all the old time stuff that hot rodders don't like. If I want to drive a modern car I drive my modern car!

[Larry Brumfield]

The detergent in today's oil is not powerful enough to scour but it will gradually erode sludge and deposits over a period of time. As far as doing any real damage there are just as many bonafide experts who claim the switch to detergent from non-detergent will cause no harm as there are experts who claim otherwise.

In my opinion the only way one could come close to verification would be to disassemble and inspect a high mileage non-detergent engine noting all wear patterns an measurements. Then without disturbing any deposits or sludge, reassemble and run on detergent oil. Disassemble again and inspect and measure including any failures.

Of course one would have to be sharp enough to know if any new wear patterns or failure were ACTUALLY CAUSED by loosened deposits or plugged oil passages as a result of detergents and not some other reason. It would most likely be a guess at best.

A better indication and possible proof would be a preponderance of engines with no problems after switching to detergent as compared to ones with problems or failures. It still would be hard to know for sure because of the variables in wear, driving habits, etc.. On the other hand, if engines failed rapidly (a few hours or days) after switching to detergent the determination might be easier.

[MikeK]

Go rogue. Run saponified plant oil. Cleans well, superior lubricity, no detergent, biodegradeable! A mix of 80% castor oil, 10% potassium saponified olive oil, and 10% TOFA (from coniferous trees) should work nicely.

[PC/SR]

I use older Chevron Delo 15-40 for diesels with high zddp and a filter and the engine is really clean, but as noted about anything these day will be better than the original. Since it comes in 5 gal containers, I also am now using it in my modern which oil and filter I change at 5000 miles and has 180 k on it. Also use it on the Wife's car that is 10 yrs old and 30k miles, she only drives 3-5 miles a day, really tough service. Kinda funny in a way, but the A gets more consideration and attention than the other cars.

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by PC/SR

I use older Chevron Delo 15-40 for diesels with high zddp and a filter and the engine is really clean, but as noted about anything these day will be better than the original. Since it comes in 5 gal containers, I also am now using it in my modern which oil and filter I change at 5000 miles and has 180 k on it. Also use it on the Wife's car that is 10 yrs old and 30k miles, she only drives 3-5 miles a day, really tough service. Kinda funny in a way, but the A gets more consideration and attention than the other cars.

Hmm.
The thought of 15-40 in any modern engine regardless of miles gives me heartburn.

[Bill Goddard]

I would mix them all together in a 5 gal pail and stir. That way I would have an average of all the opinions. How could I go wrong? Bill G

[Kurt in NJ]

I have used extra doses of detergent (the kind for quieting noisey lifters) on sludged up engines that were having problems with loosing oil pressure due to loosened sludge clogging the pump screen ---this was on cars that had been neglected for many miles, were full of sludge in the valve covers, a short time after addition of the detergent normal oil pressure returned.

It's like using blood thinners to prevent a stroke.

For our short trip low mileage use another important additive to look for is the corrosion inhibiter, something that may not be in non detergent oils.

[Larry Brumfield]

I think the kind used for quieting noisy lifters is more of a solvent than an equivalent to the normal detergent used in oil.

[Earle]

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I think (hope?) ford1 was being "humorous". We semi-purests are proud of our straight-cut gears and mechanical brakes. My roadster's windshield wiper, however, is one of those new-fangled vacuum types. 'Works real swell!

I use Rotella 15W-40 detergent since my recent Schwalm rebuild. I also run a full-flow valve-cover-mounted oil filter. 'Best of all worlds - constant fine filtration, multi-viscosity for weather temperature fluctuations, detergent to carry contaminents to the filter and zinc for the valve train.

Earle

[Old182]

Lots of good stuff here. If you choose to run non-detergent oil, here's what you're giving up: Detergent (duh), dispersant, antiwear agents (low ZDDP, but other additives to replace it), friction modifiers, oxidation inhibitors, corrosion inibitors, and antifoamants. The original detergents were meant to prevent valve sticking, but that technology has changed considerably over the years and now detergents refer to keep-clean agents, not clean-up chemistry. It doesn't make sense for an oil company put something in oil that washes oil off metal - and they don't. Detergents in moderen oils are not Lux liquid, they are mostly acid neutralizers that REALLY help keep your engine clean. You need dispersants to keep products of combustion and other sludge-forming materials in suspension so that the filter can pick them up or they can be drained. Antiwear is self explanitory, although Model A engines don't make enough power to require ZDDP or other extreme pressure additives (our engines were built before it appeared and have survived 80 years, many with NO additives!). Friction modifiers and corrosion inhibitors are also self explanitory. Antioxidants will keep your oil from becoming sludged by preventing the oxidation that occurs from normal operation and is caused by interactions with air, combustion by-products and unburned fuel. Antifoamants obviously prevent foaming - there's no lubrication quality in foam, and the air in the foam promotes oxidation and reduces what little oil pressure our engines develop. Model A engines came with straight weight oils but modern muti-viscosity oils work quite well in these engines - it's really a matter of personal preference. Check out an article in the Model A News a couple of years ago on "Choosing The Right Oil For Your Model A", or email me and I'll send you a copy. Of course, you can always choose to go with good old non-additized, non-detergent (and non-everything else), mineral oil. It's your engine, enjoy it but preserve it.

[ford1]

Earle, i was just jerking a few of the guys chains in fun, but my post was misinterpred, what i was trying to say was, there is no reason to use obsolete technology when there are a lot better alternites, (detergent oil), why use something just because it was used 80 years ago? and i would never give up the low gear whine coming from my A because of the straight cut gears, i love that sound,its part of the lore of old cars, and thanks for the pleasant reply and not wanting to rip my head off, like one of the other guys would love to do, lol

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by ford1

Earle, i was just jerking a few of the guys chains in fun, but my post was misinterpred, what i was trying to say was, there is no reason to use obsolete technology when there are a lot better alternites, (detergent oil), why use something just because it was used 80 years ago? and i would never give up the low gear whine coming from my A because of the straight cut gears, i love that sound,its part of the lore of old cars, and thanks for the pleasant replty and not wanting to rip my head off, like one of the other guys would love to do, lol

lol,lol

[HoarseWhisperer]

The 28' Pickup I just acquired has been running non-detergent oil. I want to switch to detergent.

I realize that things need to be cleaned up before I do, but what exactly is the process and what chemicals are used in the cleaning? Thx!

[MrTube]

Pull the pan and valve cover and clean anything you see that is nasty. Reassemble and enjoy.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by HoarseWhisperer

The 28' Pickup I just acquired has been running non-detergent oil. I want to switch to detergent.

I realize that things need to be cleaned up before I do, but what exactly is the process and what chemicals are used in the cleaning? Thx!

I think you should be careful when doing this. If I were not taking the engine apart I would only clean the pan and pump. The reasoning is, while detergent oil will not cause the sludge to come loose in clumbs, if you scrape the sludge in the valve area you might just leave loose clumps that could block the galleys to the bearings.

[Louis]

I know everyone has a diff. opin. on what oil to use. Here's my story,
I bought my 31 coupe aprox. 3 years ago, it had been on blocks in a garage sence 1972, I was told that the eng. had been rebuilt in 1971, [don,t know for sure].
The guy got it started and I drove it home, The 1st thing was to change the oil, It looked like cream colored goo , I put in 15w40 shell-rottella detergent and changed it every 50-75 miles untill it was clean looking [took about 4-5 times] now I change it when it looks black,300-400 miles.
I did not drop the pan and clean it, I just kept changing the oil untill it was clean looking, So far it's doing great and sounds good to me.
Good luck on what ever you do .

[Greg Jones]

For a car that has sat for many years it would probably be wise to drop the pan and clean it out. You might be surprised to find a jellied, firm mass of oil that aint flowing too well. (Although one time I opened up a Model T engine that had been sitting forever and the oil looked like it had been just put in.) As they say, "YMMV."