how tight to tighten spindel nut

[stouchton]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Stirrin' the pot is O.K. at times, once I stirred my BIG cast iron pot & a mouth watering PIG'S FOOT came up, & I don't even remember puttin' it in the pot. Bill W.

My grandfather butchered pigs.... scrapple and pickled pigs feet for dinner

[Pinstripe]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

1929tudor,
I was just joking around, me & the Dog gots a lot of time!! Let's apply a little common sense to this issue.
We can talk to Timken people, who is the guy, maybe he is the tech that monitors E-Mail & answers the phones when everyone's gone??? Can't believe EVERYTHING we hear or read! Changes have gone on since Ford wrote many recommendations.
A tapered roller bearing, operating between two tapered races must NOT be a "loosey-goosey" fit, or it cannot run in a true concentric environment & it CANNOT distribute the weight & forces reasonably equal to all the roller surfaces, nor can they keep the hub races in place properly, so the races don't wobble out the hub bores. With loose front wheel bearings, the wheel can go in & out at the top & bottom, it can go in & out in a sideways motion, (defeating your toe in adjustment) it can go up & down, forward & backward, it can increase steering wheel slack, etc. A few thousandths clearance at the bearing translates to a lot of side to side motion at the tire tread, causing the car to dart side to side by itself!
Take your car to have the toe in set, "Hey, Joe, I cain't set yo' toe in, them bearings are loose, I'll have to charge you to adjust them, & I'll have to charge you to re-pack the whole mess to make sure they're not worn out & dangerous! What do-dingy guy adjusted these"??
Modern cars with conventional Timken type bearings require some amount of pre-load! I always pre-load them 5 to 10 FT LBS. (That ain't very much!) And remember, all wheel bearing greases are NOT equal, use ONLY a high quality, high temp disc brake grease! A proper wheel bearing repacking will go 30,000 miles, with maybe 1 pre-load adjustment at 15,000 miles.
YES! I brag, I'm an A.S.E. Certified Master Automobile Technician, with current certification, 35 years experience, until retiring on disability in 1990! (SO THERE!)
One employer thought I was God's gift to the automotive world! (Poor man!) Maybe I should have been a CON-MAN!
Seriously, use common sense & ponder this, try to visualize all the strange, un-needed movements that go on when wheel bearings are set up loose.
And I was NEVER reprimanded by an employer for "SMOKIN' WHEEL BEARINGS"!! Bill W. (The Dog just read & APPROVED this tirade!)

Thank you Bill for this explanation! I have now learned something today.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Pinstripe

Thank you Bill for this explanation! I have now learned something today.

You made my day, Buddy!
Also compare wheel bearing pre-load to differential carrier bearing pre-load. If those bearings were NOT pre-loaded, the ring gear would NOT run true & concentric & the thing would whine & GROAN & wear out in short order!
Ball bearings don't even have clearance made into them! If you inspect one that has side to side "wobble" in it, the dang thing's WORN out & you "trash" it! Bearings are made to run in a true precision manner, NOT like a WOBBLY old wooden wagon wheel, lubed with PORK fat!! Bill W.

[Randy in ca]

Well I don't know, but since I was 16 and nearly smoked the front wheel bearings on a '48 Ford from having them somewhat too tight, I've always used the method of backing off the nut after tightening to set things in place. As well I've never seen anything other this method prescribed in many, many factory shop manuals for adjusting tapered roller type bearings. Never once have I had any type of problem with front wheel bearing on any type of vehicle using this method and I've never had to re-adjust or grease them anytime other than when I was doing a brake job, which frequently amounted to many thousands of miles. Maybe I've just been lucky!!

Anyways, being as is sounds like phoning Timken could be a wast of time, I checked their Webpage (see link below) and was not surprised to see that they stress the "backoff" method.

http://www.timken.com/pt-br/solution...gs_English.pdf

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Dog here,
Well, Ol' Bill jist gave up on this subject!! And iffin' we see a Model A broke down with a funked-out wheel bearing, I'll jist stick my cute head out the window & say, "WE TOLE YOU SO"! as we WHIZ BY!----Then we'll spin around & come back & hep you! Buster T.

[Bob C]

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Randy, don't be confusing Bill with the facts----he's got his mind made up
besides what does Timken know about bearing adjustments, probably the
janitor wrote those instructions on his lunch break.

Bob

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Well, BobC, I DO know that pre-load has worked SUCCESSFULLY for me over many years. Car brands that I've worked on, DO recommend pre-load. Jaguar recommended 120 inch pounds, Volvo recommended 60 Ft Lbs, & back off 1 flat of the nut, I don't remember what that final pre-load amounted to, but it was NOT LOOSE!
Loose wheel bearings FOIL all of our attempts to get out our front end adjustments correct & wobbly, loose, rollers don't do a proper job of circulating the wheel bearing grease around properly.
One man reported that at national meets, he observed many wheel bearing emergency repairs on cars that had driven many miles to the meets!! I'm just trying to help folks to "BE SAFE" by doing the bearings properly. Bill W.

[H. L. Chauvin]

FWIW, just one experience to share -- life is full of so many different, most interesting experiences -- smile!

Maybe a good thing we all don't like to eat just canned sardines (3) times a day -- there would be a possibility that with such exports, Morocco & Spain would rule the World.

1. When I bought my 1930 Town Sedan a few years ago, the former car collector owner must have misinterpreted how to tighten front & rear wheel bearing nuts -- or someone did -- another amazing Model A find!

2. Good thing he only drove it 200 miles or so over a period of 20 years while he had it in storage because the two (2) rear nuts were only hand tight & the front nuts were very, very tight -- never thought to check the front nuts if they were at 100 ft.-lbs., but the races were turning in both front hub even though someone tried to roughen both hub & race with a center punch -- luckily, rear axles were not ruined.

3. Mr. Mel Gros later kindly recommended his installing good used front hubs when he installed new front cast iron drums as opposed to the hammer & punch methods on tightening races which he remarked would not endure very long.

4. There were so many Model A messages on shimming races, upsetting races, tightening front wheel bearings, etc., etc. on Model A message Forums back then, decided to call Timken Bearing Company to try to confirm what I had always heard & read about from well experienced vintage mechanics years ago.

5. After calling Timken at that time, besides the advised Timken recommended of no more than 0.007" inch clearance for front conical bearings, this gentleman explained further, additional information on preserving hubs & installing Timken conical bearing races in hubs.

6. He mentioned that hubs are usually ruined with Timken conical bearing races because many over-tighten conical bearings; hence, when the bearing gets hot after rotation & expands, because there may be more friction between the bearing & the race, when one hits a bump or the vehicle bounces, the race begins to slip in the hub. Over a length of time, the race wears more & begins to spin in the hub & wears out the hub -- sounds familiar after investigating used front hubs?

7. Also he remarked that races should be driven in hubs for an "interference" fit which he described as not being loose; however, not being so tight that he race cannot rotate. Also the race should be installed with axle grease so if on occasion with 90 degree weight stress, the race rotates a little, the lubrication will prevent iron to iron wear between the race & hub.

8. I did not ask this Timken gentleman about pre-load on conical bearing drive shafts & rear axle conical bearings inside banjo; however, I think my differential was original when I rebuilt it to install a new 3:27 R & P ratio -- anyway, again FWIW, this is what I found on a supposedly over 80 year old differential set up:

a. The Town Sedan differential was totally noiseless & operated smoothly as compared to the musical corn-grinder noise made by my 1930 coupe.

b. Prior to disassembly, I checked existing rear end preload & existing axle in & out play.

c. Existing axle in & out movement was less than the recommended 0.010".

d. Existing drive shaft in the vertical position had absolutely no noticeable preload when tested with an inch-pound torque wrench -- also no noticeable in & out movement.

e. Both existing axles when held vertically had absolutely no noticeable pre-load when turned with the inch-pound torque wrench -- also no noticeable in & out movement.

9.. On reassembly:

A. Set differential preload at 20 inch-pounds using Mr. Tom Endy's written methods for Model A differential rebuild information.

B. Set front wheel bearings per Timken's recommendations.

C. Don't hold you r breath waiting for a follow up bearing report 20 years from now -- 20 years? ............... hmmmmm, heck, nothing like hope!

Again, each to his own, & lots of profound respect for all Model A owners with varying opinions.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

FWIW, just one experience to share -- life is full of so many different, most interesting experiences -- smile!

Maybe a good thing we all don't like to eat just canned sardines (3) times a day -- there would be a possibility that with such exports, Morocco & Spain would rule the World.

1. When I bought my 1930 Town Sedan a few years ago, the former car collector owner must have misinterpreted how to tighten front & rear wheel bearing nuts -- or someone did -- another amazing Model A find!

2. Good thing he only drove it 200 miles or so over a period of 20 years while he had it in storage because the two (2) rear nuts were only hand tight & the front nuts were very, very tight -- never thought to check the front nuts if they were at 100 ft.-lbs., but the races were turning in both front hub even though someone tried to roughen both hub & race with a center punch -- luckily, rear axles were not ruined.

3. Mr. Mel Gros later kindly recommended his installing good used front hubs when he installed new front cast iron drums as opposed to the hammer & punch methods on tightening races which he remarked would not endure very long.

4. There were so many Model A messages on shimming races, upsetting races, tightening front wheel bearings, etc., etc. on Model A message Forums back then, decided to call Timken Bearing Company to try to confirm what I had always heard & read about from well experienced vintage mechanics years ago.

5. After calling Timken at that time, besides the advised Timken recommended of no more than 0.007" inch clearance for front conical bearings, this gentleman explained further, additional information on preserving hubs & installing Timken conical bearing races in hubs.

6. He mentioned that hubs are usually ruined with Timken conical bearing races because many over-tighten conical bearings; hence, when the bearing gets hot after rotation & expands, because there may be more friction between the bearing & the race, when one hits a bump or the vehicle bounces, the race begins to slip in the hub. Over a length of time, the race wears more & begins to spin in the hub & wears out the hub -- sounds familiar after investigating used front hubs?

7. Also he remarked that races should be driven in hubs for an "interference" fit which he described as not being loose; however, not being so tight that he race cannot rotate. Also the race should be installed with axle grease so if on occasion with 90 degree weight stress, the race rotates a little, the lubrication will prevent iron to iron wear between the race & hub.

8. I did not ask this Timken gentleman about pre-load on conical bearing drive shafts & rear axle conical bearings inside banjo; however, I think my differential was original when I rebuilt it to install a new 3:27 R & P ratio -- anyway, again FWIW, this is what I found on a supposedly over 80 year old differential set up:

a. The Town Sedan differential was totally noiseless & operated smoothly as compared to the musical corn-grinder noise made by my 1930 coupe.

b. Prior to disassembly, I checked existing rear end preload & existing axle in & out play.

c. Existing axle in & out movement was less than the recommended 0.010".

d. Existing drive shaft in the vertical position had absolutely no noticeable preload when tested with an inch-pound torque wrench -- also no noticeable in & out movement.

e. Both existing axles when held vertically had absolutely no noticeable pre-load when turned with the inch-pound torque wrench -- also no noticeable in & out movement.

9.. On reassembly:

A. Set differential preload at 20 inch-pounds using Mr. Tom Endy's written methods for Model A differential rebuild information.

B. Set front wheel bearings per Timken's recommendations.

C. Don't hold you r breath waiting for a follow up bearing report 20 years from now -- 20 years? ............... hmmmmm, heck, nothing like hope!

Again, each to his own, & lots of profound respect for all Model A owners with varying opinions.

H.L.
on #7 your timken guru says the race should be able to rotate in the hub? and to use grease between the hub and race so it does not wear the hub?
and you bought that hook line and sinker? cmon

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

6. He mentioned that hubs are usually ruined with Timken conical bearing races because many over-tighten conical bearings; hence, when the bearing gets hot after rotation & expands, because there may be more friction between the bearing & the race, when one hits a bump or the vehicle bounces, the race begins to slip in the hub. Over a length of time, the race wears more & begins to spin in the hub & wears out the hub -- sounds familiar after investigating used front hubs?

7. Also he remarked that races should be driven in hubs for an "interference" fit which he described as not being loose; however, not being so tight that he race cannot rotate. Also the race should be installed with axle grease so if on occasion with 90 degree weight stress, the race rotates a little, the lubrication will prevent iron to iron wear between the race & hub.

.

I don't get it, in #6 he says that when the race rotates it wears out the hub, and in 7 the same guy tells you that the race should be able to rotate? Yea, I don't get it.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Mitch,

Thanks for your opinion, but the above mentioned single Timekin technician's opinion is only his personal opinion.

Never took the time to call to check other bearing manufacturers opinions -- my best guess -- if you would call others, opinions would again vary.

FWIW on opinions:

Remember asking a foreign soldier years ago if he heard cigarettes may cause cancer -- he replied that he had heard that American cigarettes caused cancer; however, that his country only put pure tobacco in his cigarettes that did not cause cancer -- at least he had an opinion.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by H. L. Chauvin

Mitch,

Thanks for your opinion, but the above mentioned single Timekin technician's opinion is only his personal opinion.

Never took the time to call to check other bearing manufacturers opinions -- my best guess -- if you would call others, opinions would again vary.

FWIW on opinions:

Remember asking a foreign soldier years ago if he heard cigarettes may cause cancer -- he replied that he had heard that American cigarettes caused cancer; however, that his country only put pure tobacco in his cigarettes that did not cause cancer -- at least he had an opinion.

H.L.
a race is not supposed to rotate in any hub... this info tells me whoever your timken guru was is probably just the night watchman or sanitation engineer...
the rest of the info you obtained is suspect also....so i hope the novices that read this site are not mislead
a support tech is not there to give his quote"personal opinion" but rather to distribute sound engineering info.. i am suprised you took and ran with that for many years

[[email protected]]

Several years ago I found a summery of a study on line done by one of the bearing manufactures. They found that wheel bearing life is gradually increased as play is removed and life continues to improve as some preload is added. However, the improvement in life from about 0.005 or 0.010" play to the "ideal" preload is rather slight. However, going even a little high on the preload causes bearing life to fall fast. So it is better to have a small amount of slop then risk having to much preload on wheel bearings.

This Statement was borrowed from this Jeep forum.

http://jeepsunlimited.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=530454

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi modela,

Saw several similar messages on many other different types of vehicle forums, i. e. that preload is removed over time & that if there is an error in providing manufacturer's conical bearing preload, it is better to have a very little less preload than too much preload as far as bearing failure is concerned.

As far as bearing race movement, cannot disagree with Mike V. & Mitch above because it would make sense that the race never moves.

[Marklambert61]

You guys are way over thinking his question...lol
Answer is "You turn it to the right"

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

H.L.
a race is not supposed to rotate in any hub... this info tells me whoever your timken guru was is probably just the night watchman or sanitation engineer...
the rest of the info you obtained is suspect also....so i hope the novices that read this site are not mislead
a support tech is not there to give his quote"personal opinion" but rather to distribute sound engineering info.. i am suprised you took and ran with that for many years

Yep, "Son", Chief & I "taught" you well! Races are NOT meant to rotate in the hub, that's why they have an "interference" fit! If I ever have one that is questionable, I install it with Loctite Stud & Bearing Mount goop! Or at least sum BLUE Loctite!
FUNNY THING, when packing wheel bearings, a friend always gives the WHOLE spindle a thin, smooth, coating of wheel bearing grease??? WHY, I don't have the slightest idea!
I'm amazed by how the human brain works & how so many can take in the same info & process it in different ways, with different conclusions!! My Dog is different, he believes everything I tell him, he thinks I'm "KING UF THE ROAD"!! Bill W.

[Mitch//pa]

as dad eluded to early on there are real world proven techniques that work and vary from official instructions and internet searches. this forum is filled with experts that do this day in and out, past, present, make or made a damn good successful living at it. i can ask 5 techs to put brake shoes on and each one will have a different approach but the end result is the same. lets listen to these alternative ways and not be so book blind.

my truck calls for 80 lbs in the rear tires at all times by the ""mfg"".. well after getting 25,000 miles out of the first set after wearing out the center tread not counting the hard ride i backed them down to 50lbs and only put 80 in when i am towing or loaded. so far i have 75,000 on the second set same brand and type tire and think i can get 90,000.

[ford3]

Bill is right, tapered roller bearings should never be run loose, if so the bearings can run at an angle in the races and wear out the cage that holds them in there proper positions, when that happens the bearing is ruined along with the races, and steering becomes unstable, and as Bill said , use a good high pressure and high temp grease

[Bob C]

7. Also he remarked that races should be driven in hubs for an "interference" fit which he described as not being loose; however, not being so tight that he race cannot rotate. Also the race should be installed with axle grease so if on occasion with 90 degree weight stress, the race rotates a little, the lubrication will prevent iron to iron wear between the race & hub.

The rotation of the race is probably referring cone race on the spindle.
This is from a factory Chevy S10 manual "Cones must be a slip fit on the spindle and the inside diameter of the cones should be lubricated to insure that the cones will creep."

Bob

[ford3]

the race in the hub should never rotate or move under any circumstances, if it does the race is bad or the inside of hub where the race goes is worn and shoulld be discarded (Trashed)