1936 Model 51 Dump - GVWR - Commercial Reg. Issues

[LFEngineering]

Good afternoon everyone. Having just overcome the overheating issue in my truck I though I was finally on the right path for this summer. That was till Johnny-Law decided to flex his muscle and ruin my day. I was informed by a local officer that because my truck is a "dually" it needed to be registered as a commercial vehicle. I thanked him for the info and he was kind enough to let me finish my journey home. While I though he was just giving me a hard time I did some research and he was correct, any vehicle in MA that has "five or more wheels on the ground." classifies as commercial. To confirm my understanding of the write-up I called the DMV and they confirmed it aswell. This is unfortunate news because they also explained that I would need to pass the commercial vehicle inspection ($100+ / yr) as well as update my insurance to a commercial policy $$$.

The way I currently see it I have 3 options.

A.) Go though all the BS and get the commercial stuff done.

B.) Build a custom set of 20x10 rims with 5x8 bolt pattern and run a large width single tire on the rear, there by skirting the "Any vehicle which has five or more wheels on the ground." regulation.

C.) Pray that my insurance guy with his "RMV Contacts" can get a waiver or work some magic.

As a fabricator and owner of a machine shop I'm partial to option B. Now I understand this is going to most likely upset some of the purist, but fear not. I will not be getting rid of the dual rims, there's always hope for the future.

Lastly does anyone know the GVWR for the 1936 Ford Model 51 1-1/2T?

Feel free to chime in with other ideas.
Just sucks having a fully functional truck at home, stuck in the driveway because of some regulatory BS.

(rant over)

[skidmarks]

Just put super singles on the back like you said in option B.

Thankfully the state of delaware last time i asked does not have a GVW limit on antique tags but dont get caught hauling anything or using it for anything other then club or show events.

[JSeery]

I would go with the single rear wheel option. Would be fairly easy to switch it back and forth for a static situation.

[drolston]

According to the MV-65 Affidavit you can register your truck as an "Antique Auto". Would that not avoid the commercial vehicle business?

[Vintage Copper 47]

In Calif, you can register as historical vehicle plates & no commercial license required..

[rotorwrench]

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If you can't go under antique or historic status, your next option is to become a pain in your state legislature's back side. Bug em enough and they might come up with a legal loop hole. An antique vehicle isn't even practical for commercial use. Most any person, regardless about which way there wind blows, should be able to figure that out.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

If you can't go under antique or historic status, your next option is to become a pain in your state legislature's back side. Bug em enough and they might come up with a legal loop hole. An antique vehicle isn't even practical for commercial use. Most any person, regardless about which way there wind blows, should be able to figure that out.

You obviously have higher class people working for the DMV in Texas than we have in Minnesota.

[LFEngineering]

I was hoping the antique status / plates would be the loophole, but according to the "helpful" people at the DMV, it does not. That's where I hope my insurance guy can dig a little deeper and find someone more knowledgeable than the girl at the front desk.

The only other issue I have doing the single wheel is the truck must still have a GVWR of less than 10,001 lb. Unfortunately I have no record of this. The only info I could find mentioning any sort of GVW was a forum post with the attached images. Listed under the 131.5 dump body with 6.50-20 tires (which mine is equipped) the GVW is 8949. If this could be confirmed, it's my loophole.

[51504bat]

Delete. Misread O/P

[rotorwrench]

The states requirements for registration should be accessible on line. Most of them are. I always just wade through that when I come to it. Some older vehicles may not even pass certain commercial truck requirements. It's well worth your time to find out as best you can.

I don't go to the Tex Dot offices unless I have to. I go through a civilian title service. They are always up on the rules and they do change on occasion. They get changed by the state governments. The squeaky wheel always gets the grease with them. If regulations are unfair then get together with all the antique truck guys you can find and shake the tree a little bit. There has to be a way to do it if not using it for actual commercial purposes.

They just recently relaxed the rules in Texas for annual safety inspections of trailers. It used to be for all 4,500 Lb or above. Now it's 7,500 LBs or above due to all the complaints.

[barnstuf]

I am in Massachusetts and I have seen quite a few dual rear wheel antique trucks, usually restored fire engines, at car shows with antique registration plates. I would just register it as an antique, use it as an antique, and as long as you do not carry a cargo in it, or have a business name on it, you should be OK.

This regulation you are fretting about is not silly. At the time the Registry of Motor Vehicles allowed pickup body vehicles with gvw under 10,000 pounds and single rear wheels to be registered with passenger (instead of Commercial) plates, if there was no business use and no signage on the vehicle, folks began abusing the privilege by putting passenger plates on trucks that did not qualify. Strict enforcement is now the rule. If your truck has signage on it regardless of gvw it is considered Commercial, even a pickup. Also if registered in a business name it is Commercial. These days you see Commercial plates in Massachusetts on pleasure cars because they are registered to a business or because they have signage. Part of the tradeoff for light trucks to have passenger car plates if no signage, privately owned, and no business use.

[KDL]

Anyone that considers a '36 dump truck a commercial vehicle needs to have their head examined.

[tubman]

I have seen many times on this very forum where owners of these vehicles state that they often use them for their original intended use.

[rotorwrench]

In Kansas, we had to register all the family farm trucks as "Farm" vehicles. Since we had a farm it was actually a savings. Farmers have to have a fair amount of vehicles to operate if it is a large family farm or a corporate farm. I don't know about Mass but I'm sure it only works for actual farm use vehicles.

Here in TX we have fuel police and they do check to make sure the farmers are not using off road fuel on the road. They will sample the fuel and the fine is a heavy one.

[5851a]

Sounds like cash cow to me, 100 extra a year for inspection. Lots of crew cab dually's running around here taking grass clippings to land fill. Any time the state sees a trend here they jump on it adding additional tax. Sorry for rant but dot's need to have separate mediation alternative. I would go with the single rear tire.

[skidmarks]

I have been stopped by the police and have had a seperate irs cop sample the tanks. Fines are very expensive

[tubman]

As a "city boy", let me see if I understand. Are you saying they add some chemical or something to the off-road gas so it can be easily detected?

[Bob C]

In CA off road fuel has red dye in it.


Bob

[flatford8]

Originally Posted by tubman

As a "city boy", let me see if I understand. Are you saying they add some chemical or something to the off-road gas so it can be easily detected?

Their talking about diesel fuel not gas...... Mark
There is “road use tax” on onroad fuel.

[blucar]

Most states that have exemptions for "off road fuel tax" a red dye in the off road fuel.. In many states the fine is $150. per gallon of storage the tank can hold. ie; a 25 gal tank is 25 x $150. = $3,750.
I travel the western states on a regular basis driving many different sizes of vehicles, large diesel RV's, pickups pulling trailers and flatbed trucks.
In most states if the truck has dual rear wheels, more than two axles and has a flatbed and/or box, with a GVW in excess of 10K, in some cases the trigger is 16k, the vehicle is rated as commercial.
I know a lot of people that try to avoid the laws with vintage trucks that they claim are exempt from current DMV rules, however, when they get stopped by the law, they find themselves in deep trouble.

[skidmarks]

And i was told, once you get the red dye in large truck with 100 gallon or larger tanks it takes over 300 gallon of clear fuel to be run throught before it clears up

[Vintage Copper 47]

Originally Posted by LFEngineering

I was hoping the antique status / plates would be the loophole, but according to the "helpful" people at the DMV, it does not. That's where I hope my insurance guy can dig a little deeper and find someone more knowledgeable than the girl at the front desk.

The only other issue I have doing the single wheel is the truck must still have a GVWR of less than 10,001 lb. Unfortunately I have no record of this. The only info I could find mentioning any sort of GVW was a forum post with the attached images. Listed under the 131.5 dump body with 6.50-20 tires (which mine is equipped) the GVW is 8949. If this could be confirmed, it's my loophole.

You can always take it to the scales.. weigh it precisely

[VeryTangled]

Here is our Original Poster's vehicle. I like it!

[Yoyodyne]

I think the super singles would be a great solution! If you want to go with historic/antique plates and have difficulty contact the ATHS club, they have gotten concessions from states to allow semi's to travel on antique plates and w/o logbooks and permits.

[VeryTangled]

Originally Posted by Vintage Copper 47

You can always take it to the scales.. weigh it precisely

Nice idea, and I'm really not trying to be a pain here, but Gross Vehicle Weight Rating, is a 'do not exceed' limit, a value assigned by the manufacturer, at least on modern vehicles.

(The license plate authority certainly uses this weight rating value in their fee scale. I assume that is why the question was asked.)

Not the same as the actual weight when you pull the truck onto a scale.

The more I think, did a vehicle like this come with a rating like GVWR or GAWR? Someone must have put a number limit on the load. Might be not Ford but the folks that did the dump bed? Curious.

I like the suggestion of consulting the American Truck Historical Society guys... https://www.aths.org/

[bbook]

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Image.jpeg

Here is a another gvw list from the Truck ownwers manual for 36.

[bbook]

Attached.

[Newc]

Hi all; 4 trucks here with 'duals' all have 'antique vehicle ' plates, One is a WW2 6 by 2 1/2 ton military.It weighs 16,500 lbs empty, No problems.... However as the trucks are always empty I could just remove the outer tires and run them that way if necessary. The avatar uses super singles. Newc in Oregon

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by LFEngineering

I was hoping the antique status / plates would be the loophole, but according to the "helpful" people at the DMV, it does not. That's where I hope my insurance guy can dig a little deeper and find someone more knowledgeable than the girl at the front desk.

The only other issue I have doing the single wheel is the truck must still have a GVWR of less than 10,001 lb. Unfortunately I have no record of this. The only info I could find mentioning any sort of GVW was a forum post with the attached images. Listed under the 131.5 dump body with 6.50-20 tires (which mine is equipped) the GVW is 8949. If this could be confirmed, it's my loophole.

Quite a lot depends of how you want to use the vehicle. If you want regular plate, that is non antique vehicle plate, they assume you want to use it as an every day vehicle. If you plan to use it solely for use in exhibitions, clubactivities, parades, and other functions of public interest then you can get an an Antique Motor Vehicle Plate.

This is from the Mass application for an antique motor vehicle plate application;
"An "antique motor car" is any motor vehicle over twenty-five years old which is maintained solely for use in exhibitions, club activities, parades, and other functions of public interest. This includes test drives to prepare for such functions and transportation to and from repair facilities,and not used primarily for the transportation of passengers or goods over any way."

https://www.massrmv.com/Portals/30/docs/20132.pdf

As you can see you can get away without registration as a commercial vehicle depending on how you want to use it.

[LFEngineering]

I got motivated this past weekend and pulled 2 of the rear tires. After that I was able to get the truck to pass regular car inspection. This means I can use it as a daily-driver and haul whatever I want. Next step will be sourcing / building the super singles for the rear.

[VeryTangled]

Hi Everyone, LFE, I'd say put the dualies back on and do as you like, but there is the issue of that local cherrytop that is on the lookout. Maybe let him drive it for a while? Just thinking here.

[Kerk]

have the Dealer sales book on Trucks for 1935. 36 would no doubt be the same! On pages 99 thru 101 all load specs are listed. Probably that might help with your problem. kerk

[Steve in Denver]

Just curious, what vehicle has 5 tires on the ground? A Morgan with Duelies on the back?

[tubman]

Originally Posted by Steve Kennedy

Just curious, what vehicle has 5 tires on the ground? A Morgan with Duelies on the back?

The only thing I can think of is one of the "buckboard" style cycle cars popular in the teens and twenties with a fifth "power wheel" on the back.

[50fordcoupeman]

Oregon also adds red dye only to diesel fuel for off-road use. Less tax on it but don't get caught using it in your highway vehicle-farm or construction use only. Remember DMV is here to help........................

[LFEngineering]

I ended up going with Opiton B. Custom super singles: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=262349

[modeleh]

After reading this I couldn’t help but wonder if they consider Motorhomes as commercial vehicles. Most all are duallys and some are tag axles. There must be a loophole for RVs. Maybe you could keep a portapotti in the back of your truck and when the cop asks for your commercial registration you could tell him that’s where he’ll find it.

[cas3]

a few years ago the cops here went to the high school and ticketed the kids who drove pickups with farm plates on them. to them, going to school is not farm related. there was quite an uproar about it, and i've not heard of them doing it again. anything for easy money it seems.

[1ton]

Back to the original question....If Roger Penske were to interpret this rule he probably would put a smaller tire on the inside duals so they are not "on the ground"

[trulyvintage]

Originally Posted by LFEngineering

I got motivated this past weekend and pulled 2 of the rear tires.

There is your solution.

If you are not loading the bed - drive it like that.

Problem solved.


Jim

[LFEngineering]

Originally Posted by 1ton

Back to the original question....If Roger Penske were to interpret this rule he probably would put a smaller tire on the inside duals so they are not "on the ground"

I considered this as well, but couldn't find 32" od tires to go with my current 33's

[blucar]

In California '36 and earlier pickups, 1/2 ton, are exempt from the weight/commercial rules. However, I would suggest you be very careful with what you put in the bed.

[deuce_roadster]

If you are a fabricator and owner of a machine shop I would think the answer would be simple. Find some wheels you can sacrifice, cut the centers out of some old Ford rims that have other issues, find some later steel rims the size you want, cut the centers out of those and mate them with the old Ford centers. Tack them together, true them in your shop and TIG weld them together and end wondering about what might be legal or not.
My best friend owns a big machine shop and he has widened the 17" rims for the rear of his 33 phaeton by adding a band around them, and reversed the rims on his 54 skyliner.