Bendix Brakes Question

[meric42]

I have just fitted a set of Bolling Bros. brakes (front and rear) to my '41 Coupe which was straight forward enough.

Generally I am very pleased with the quality and fit of the product, but I am however having difficulty getting the hand brake to operate enough to hold the car properly. It would seem that there is a lot of movement in the lever attached to the cable on the rear shoe before the spreader bar contacts and actuates the front shoe.

Am I missing something or do I need to allow for the shoes to bed in a little more before I can expect to achieve the best possible hand brake functionality?

I'd be interested in other peoples experiences.

[Andy]

I think the cable just needs the slack taken out. The cable should be just short of applying the brake.

[V8 Bob]

Start by making sure shoes are properly adjusted, and the jack stands are under the rear axle to simulate ride height. Center the shoes by hand with the backing plates, and adjust the cables so there is very little movement of the upper struts when pushed against their springs. The use of a large screw driver will help make sure the cables are fully retracted during the adjustment by prying on the park lever, pulling any slack out of the cable. Alternate a couple of times side to side to ensure a good adjustment for each brake.

[51woodie]

meric42. By you having done this install, and got the shoes in the correct orientation, I'm not going to question your knowledge of brake adjusting. Your pictures look like you got all the parts installed correctly. Like you, I installed the Boling Bros. brakes, front and rear, on my '46 Super Deluxe Coupe. My install went well, and I had no problem getting the hand brake adjusted. But, I was not initially happy with the holding ability of the hand brake, or the stopping power of the service brakes. They were good enough to get 300+ kms on the new set up before I pulled the drums to inspect the shoe to drum contact. What I found was a contact area of about 60 to 80% on each shoe. I sanded the high spots using a sanding block and 100 grit paper. The brakes were a bit better, but still not up to my expectations. I've got another +/- 500km after the sanding, but will have to wait until we get warmer weather in Northern Ontario (-38c yesterday morning) before I pull the drums to check the contact again. The other possibility is the drum diameters. Are the drums new, worn, machined? If the drums are not the original I.D. then the shoe friction material will not have the same arc as the larger I.D. of the drum, so less contact.

[19Fordy]

Not sure if it makes any difference but when I installed the Boling brothers new rear backing plates with brakes and drums I had to cit down the length of the E-Brake tubes supplied with the kit. Car is a 40 Ford. I also recall I had to readjust the hand brake as well as the cable under the car.

[meric42]

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Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Not sure if it makes any difference but when I installed the Boling brothers new rear backing plates with brakes and drums I had to cit down the length of the E-Brake tubes supplied with the kit. Car is a 40 Ford. I also recall I had to readjust the hand brake as well as the cable under the car.

Thanks, I had wondered about this as a possibility as the springs on the cable ends did seem to be restricting the movement of the actuating arm on the rear shoe.

[meric42]

Originally Posted by 51woodie

meric42. By you having done this install, and got the shoes in the correct orientation, I'm not going to question your knowledge of brake adjusting. Your pictures look like you got all the parts installed correctly. Like you, I installed the Boling Bros. brakes, front and rear, on my '46 Super Deluxe Coupe. My install went well, and I had no problem getting the hand brake adjusted. But, I was not initially happy with the holding ability of the hand brake, or the stopping power of the service brakes. They were good enough to get 300+ kms on the new set up before I pulled the drums to inspect the shoe to drum contact. What I found was a contact area of about 60 to 80% on each shoe. I sanded the high spots using a sanding block and 100 grit paper. The brakes were a bit better, but still not up to my expectations. I've got another +/- 500km after the sanding, but will have to wait until we get warmer weather in Northern Ontario (-38c yesterday morning) before I pull the drums to check the contact again. The other possibility is the drum diameters. Are the drums new, worn, machined? If the drums are not the original I.D. then the shoe friction material will not have the same arc as the larger I.D. of the drum, so less contact.

Unfortunately I can't wait until I've done hundreds of miles as I have to get the car checked before I can drive it on New Zealand roads and it must at least pass a stall test with the hand brake to be deemed to be safe. My coupe is a 40 000 mile original car and the drums don't look like they have ever been turned. I have taken the car for a short road test last weekend so I will take the drums off, check the wear pattern and make sure that the shoes are centred properly (I did follow the instructions so should be okay there)

[meric42]

Originally Posted by Andy

I think the cable just needs the slack taken out. The cable should be just short of applying the brake.

I will check this again at the weekend.

[meric42]

Originally Posted by V8 Bob

Start by making sure shoes are properly adjusted, and the jack stands are under the rear axle to simulate ride height. Center the shoes by hand with the backing plates, and adjust the cables so there is very little movement of the upper struts when pushed against their springs. The use of a large screw driver will help make sure the cables are fully retracted during the adjustment by prying on the park lever, pulling any slack out of the cable. Alternate a couple of times side to side to ensure a good adjustment for each brake.

I will take the drums off, check the wear pattern and make sure that the shoes are centred properly (I did follow the instructions so should be okay there)

[Tinker]

Standard practice was arcing brake shoes. Certainly a lost practice. See post 11#, maybe still working.

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...-shoes.317327/

Sometimes you can find old arc grinders.




.

[51woodie]

As 19Fordy mentioned, it reminded me that I had to shorten the tubes as well.

[Branded]

I just purchased the Boling Brothers kit for the front and rear of my 40 Sedan. I’m curious as to why there is no mention of needing to shorten the e brake cable guide tube in their online tech section or in their instructions provided with the kit

[rich b]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

I installed the Boling brothers new rear backing plates with brakes and drums

Maybe you already changed them; but the-brake levers are supposed to be on the inside of the shoes.

[rich b]

From your description of shoe contact; I would think the e-brake would hold; I think the mention of tube length by others may be a clue there is a mechanical problem in actuation.

Thru some other projects; I have found that there seems to be overly long springs on the repop cables.

What the other guys have said about having to shorten the inner side of the e-brake tubes makes a lot of sense.

I have also found that the clip can be installed between the coils of the spring (leaving some of the spring inside the tube) to tune the working length.

The brake lever needs to move enough to apply the brakes both without coil bind and excessive travel.

You could put a ratchet strap around the shoes and have someone actuate the hand lever and see what is going on.

[29AVEE8]

I don't know if this is your problem but I installed a '40 rear e-brake cable on the Lockeed brakes on the rear of my roadster. The cable I used came from C&G. The spring on the cable was much too long and very stiff. I ended up shortening it several times to get it to fit correctly but the wire diameter is much too large so the tension is too high. I talked with Mac VanPelt about this and he has the correct cable/spring. I am not knocking C&G their stuff has always been top rate and worked correctly.

[meric42]

Originally Posted by rich b

Maybe you already changed them; but the-brake levers are supposed to be on the inside of the shoes.

Mine are in the correct (inner) location

Originally Posted by rich b

From your description of shoe contact; I would think the e-brake would hold; I think the mention of tube length by others may be a clue there is a mechanical problem in actuation.

Thru some other projects; I have found that there seems to be overly long springs on the repop cables.

What the other guys have said about having to shorten the inner side of the e-brake tubes makes a lot of sense.

I have also found that the clip can be installed between the coils of the spring (leaving some of the spring inside the tube) to tune the working length.

The brake lever needs to move enough to apply the brakes both without coil bind and excessive travel.

You could put a ratchet strap around the shoes and have someone actuate the hand lever and see what is going on.

I will try moving the retaining clip part way along the spring i.e. closer to the end and see how that changes things and I will try the ratchet strap idea as well, good idea

Originally Posted by 29AVEE8

I don't know if this is your problem but I installed a '40 rear e-brake cable on the Lockeed brakes on the rear of my roadster. The cable I used came from C&G. The spring on the cable was much too long and very stiff. I ended up shortening it several times to get it to fit correctly but the wire diameter is much too large so the tension is too high. I talked with Mac VanPelt about this and he has the correct cable/spring. I am not knocking C&G their stuff has always been top rate and worked correctly.

As my coupe is a low mileage car I have not needed to replace the cable so mine is all original and in good condition.

[51woodie]

rich b. I initially did the same with the e-brake levers (on the outside) as 19Fordy did, but realized when I went to mount the shoes on the backing plates, the levers didn't line up with the cable tubes. The one page instructions that came with the kit does not detail that info. There are pictures and articles giving more information if you go to "Tech Articles" on Boling's website. www.bolingbrothers.com There is also information on grinding the front spindles to match the contour of the new style backing plates. Also, I had to grind a little bit on the rear axle flanges so the backing plates would fit flat on the flanges.

[Talkwrench]

Normally the early ones have the large shoe facing forward, being self energizing you swapped the other way [?] , would that have an effect on the E brake ?
When I did my fronts [MT Bolling] they were made a bit out of whack and I had to sort out what is was that caused the problem , scored the drum grrr . And their linings are just barely over 1 3/4" I took mine local and had them remove and put full 2" linings on .

[Fairlane500]

Meric, I remember something about cutting the cable return spring down as it becomes coil spring bound before brake application.

[john in illinois]

Originally Posted by Fairlane500

Meric, I remember something about cutting the cable return spring down as it becomes coil spring bound before brake application.

That is what I did. Holds good now.

John

[19Fordy]

Opps! Looks like I made a mistake on the E- brake lever install.
Thanks guys for setting me straight.

[Flathead Fever]

Brake Tips.

When I replaced brake shoes at work I always grabbed the parking brake cables and pulled down on them to make sure they locked the drums. If the cable movement seemed excessive I'd tighten up the adjustment before letting the lowering vehicle down on the hoist.

When you have assemble your brakes its always a good idea to grab the bottom of the shoes and forcefully pivot them back and forth and pull them towards yourself. This makes sure everything is hooked in well. It also proves the shoes will be able to self energize properly.


Put a little white lithium grease or brake caliper slide grease (preferred) on the backing plates where the shoes contact them. This helps them slide and prevents the backing plates from getting worn in those spots. Without the grease the shoes will eventually wear deep grooves in the backing plates. Then the shoes can get hung up in those grooves. To save the worn backing plates I use to weld up the grooves and grind them smooth again. They will never wear out if you lube those spots

Make sure the backing plate bolts are tight. Every once in awhile I would find some loose bolts. Loose bolts can wipeout the backing plates because they try to rotate during stops. This elongates the bolts holes, shears off the bolts and cracks the backing plate.

We had so many broken brake springs in the fleet at work that when they got to be around five year's old I replaced all of them when I did a brake job. You have them off anyway and they are not very expensive. That just about put an end to broken brake springs.

The number one mistake people make is installing the shoes backwards. If you understand why the longer shoe always goes to the rear on "self energizing" brakes it will help you remember that the long shoes goes towards the rear. Because of the self energizing action the rear shoe does more work than the front shoe. So the rear shoes will wear out at the same time as the front shoes the rear shoe is "usually" thicker. There are vehicles where the shoes are the same length. If there is a thicker shoe it would go to the rear.


People that have been taught that the long shoe always goes on the rear make the mistake of installing the long shoe to the rear on Early Ford hydraulic brakes. They are the opposite, the long shoe goes to the front. Its because of the way the shoes are anchored at the bottom. More force from the rotating drum is applied to the front shoe. The front shoe is called the 'forward braking shoe' and the rear shoe is the "reversing shoe".

If the brakes have self adjusters use your thumb to push on the cable to make sure it rotates the adjuster. A lot of times you need to bend the plate that contacts the adjuster to make sure it engages the teeth and rotates it. . Grease the threads on the adjuster.

Never grab the springs with a pair of dikes. You will leave marks that will cause the springs to break in those spots. There are two tools that make a brake job easy to do. brake spring pliers and the tool that pushes down the brake shoe hold down springs. Both tools are cheap. They make job so easy, especially flipping the springs off (see video). You can find them at garage and estate sales. I have a bunch of them I've paid about $2.00 each. I sure all the auto parts stores carry them but they won't be the quality of the ones made in the 60s and 70s. Proto made nice ones.

YouTube video showing how to use brake spring pliers. Unfortunately, this is the best video I could find (Chevy guy). I disagree with using the vise grips on the hold down springs but it does work. The tool with the black handle is a better choice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIyESaecC2s

I prefer the Ford caliper slide grease available at a Ford Dealer. The Permatex is good too. All the parts stored should have it. A tube will last you and all your gearhead bubbies that borrow it a lifetime.

[19Fordy]

Earlier Rich pointed out to me that I had incorrectly installed the E-Brake arm in relation to the brake shoe. I had installed it on the outside of the shoe instead of the inside as shown in the MT Products instructions.Today I took another look at the rear E-Brake thinking I would remove and reinstall the E-Brake arm on the inside of the shoe. However, the more I looked at it I can't really see where it would make any difference in either the brake show operation when stopping or the use of the E-Brake. It works fine as is - on the outside of the shoe. So. I left it that way. I have attached photos and would like input as to whether or not it really makes a difference if the E-Brake arm is on the inside or outside of the shoe. I know the design engineers made it that way but, I don't see the need for it being on the outside of the shoe. The brakes work fine and nothing interferes with any other brake parts. Thanks, Jim

[Branded]

Looks to me like the e brake arm is binding under the top spring, also it changes the angle slightly for the cable to pull the arm. I guess if it works don’t change it but myself I’d install the arm the way it was designed but that’s just me.

[19Fordy]

Thanks Branded. Appreciate your observation and input. I will remove drum and look at it again to see if there is any spring contact. I agree with you about installing it correctly to correct my error but, I was hoping it would be ok. Got to stay safe. Will have a look see tomorrow.

[V8 Bob]

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19Fordy,
You are putting the strut, rear shoe and adjuster into a slight bind with the park arm on the outside of the shoe. Normally the struts and arms are "sided" L & R, so simply swapping the rear secondary shoe assemblies side for side should correct the mistake, just not sure about these Bendix copies.
Bottom line, assemble the brakes correctly, as designed, for the best and safest performance.

[Branded]

Keep us updated Jim

Dave

[Branded]

I’m sure you have these pages but Incase you don’t


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[19Fordy]

Thanks Branded and V8 Bob for the added info.
No, those instruction sheets did not come with my MT Brake kit when I bought it.
They sure are helpful. Will take photos when done. Just removed the drums again and will work on it tomorrow in daylight.I am hoping I don't have to pull the hubs even though I have the KR style tool.

[Branded]

Those detailed instructions didn’t come with my kit either, I found them on their web site. Don’t know why the don’t include them , the instructions they send are a little vague.

[Flathead Fever]

That is not going to work. Placing the arm on the front side is kicking the equalizer bar out at an angle. You can easily see it in the photo looking down at the top of the shoes. That bar transfers the forces between the two shoes. The strongest force is applied when the bar is 90 degrees to the shoe. The way it is now it will push the shoe at an angle.

Then because the arm is in the front. its now resting against the hold down spring. The arm might not be able to come back all the way now. If you also look at the bottom of the arm it could get caught on the edge of the shoe.

Replace those springs or they will break. They could ruin your drum when they do.

[19Fordy]

Thanks Flathead fever for the info. and suggestions. I did look closely at the hold down springs and they have no visible imperfections. I did install them with the recommended brake shoe pliers so as not to nick them and create a stress point.These brakes only have about 200 miles on them. If you know where I can get the springs let me know please.

Today I reinstalled the E-Arm behind the brake shoe and installed the hold down bolt and washers with a locking nut - allowing the E-Arm to move freely. The hold down spring clears the nut. I readjusted the brakes using the instruction sheet posted by Branded and brakes seem to work fine including E brake. I think MT needs to provide more detailed instructions with photos. Thanks very much to all for helping me.
Just to be super safe I'd like to get new hold down springs so if you have a source please let me know.
Wonder if auto parts store would have them? What does the ORANGE color signify?
Anyone know what springs MT Products uses for their kits? Thanks. Jim

The first 2 photos show the BEFORE. The last 4 show the AFTER. Shoes are 2 in. I did close the spring loop more after install.