Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by flatjack9

Something is screwed up here. There should be a sleeve on the crank that the seal rubs against and this does not extend beyond the front cover. There should be no slot visible either.The key that holds the pulley is a about an inch long and should be fully visible. I have never seen a pulley break in this area.

That is not a slot, it is piece broken out of the back of the pulley. There is a guy on e-bay that sells new three belt pulleys. The first photo is his. The second and third photos, are of the original 2 belt pulley, when I bought the car. The piece that is broken on the 3 belt pulley is cracked on the 2 belt pulley.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by 40cpe

Just to be sure: you did bring the piston up against the stop, mark the pulley, reverse the rotation back to the stop, mark the pulley, and divide the two marks for TDC?

Yes, per the video.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by supereal

Be sure that the keyway in the crank pulley isn't damaged, or the key, itself, isn't swedged. If the crank bolt has become loosened at some time, it doesn't take long to do it.

My initial inspection didn't provide me with any evidence of slippage. As the investigation proceeded further, I feel you are correct. Unfortunately, the only way to confirm it is to remove the pulley in question. Since it doesn't affect the performance of the car, that will be a project for a later date.

Thank you for your insight.

[Hoop]

Don't know whether or not Ford made a 6 cylinder pulley in that configuration ... or if it would fit on a V8 crank.

But, the arithmetic is a tease.

[Mart]

Merc, just as a sanity check is the discrepancy in the pulley in the right direction to indicate slippage (or some other reason for turning due to load).

Mart.

[Merc Cruzer]

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Originally Posted by Hoop

Don't know whether or not Ford made a 6 cylinder pulley in that configuration ... or if it would fit on a V8 crank.

But, the arithmetic is a tease.

I was wondering if the crank, in a Y block had the same size end, since I know they offed powering steering in 54'. Could this be a pulley from a Y block?

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by Mart

Merc, just as a sanity check is the discrepancy in the pulley in the right direction to indicate slippage (or some other reason for turning due to load).

Mart.

Mart,

Since the motor turns clockwise (viewed from the front), and assuming the pulley slipped, this could account for the new location of the TDC location on the pulley.

Merc

[Hoop]

Merc, not talking about a Y block ...

Do the ignition math on a Ford 6 cylinder and then V8. Check the initial timing on each. Consider your 28 degree advance (which you just edited out.).

Do you see a coincidence?

Fun, huh? Probably simply slipped ....

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by Hoop

Merc, not talking about a Y block ...

Do the ignition math on a Ford 6 cylinder and then V8. Check the initial timing on each. Consider your 28 degree advance (which you just edited out.).

Do you see a coincidence?

Fun, huh? Probably simply slipped ....

Did they offer power steering on flathead 6 cylinder cars/trucks then? Interesting thought.

I am thinking that I might be able to pull the bolt and washer from the front of the crank again and blindly feel for both the slot on the pulley and the slot on the crank to see if they are lined up or not. Only way to do it is with a mirror.

I do have a cable that attaches to my cell phone that is a camera with a light on the end . Might give that a try.

Slippage, still seams to be the most logical explanation.

[40cpe]

When I blow up the picture in post # 36 I think I see the woodruff key in the slot that is broken out of the pulley. If so, it is not slipped.

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by Merc Cruzer

Did they offer power steering on flathead 6 cylinder cars/trucks then? Interesting thought.

Power steering was offered on the '53 OHV six cyl. pickup not sure about the passenger cars.
But from what I could see, I believe the 6 cyl. pulley is 2 grooved for the power steering application. (not positive)

[flatheadmurre]

The OHV 6 cyl have a bit different style of pulley.
With some mass closest to timing cover.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by 40cpe

When I blow up the picture in post # 36 I think I see the woodruff key in the slot that is broken out of the pulley. If so, it is not slipped.

I had a chance to take the bolt and washer out of the pulley again and I agree, no slippage. With a mirror and flashlight, I was able to look up the slot in the pulley and see the end of the key.

Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

Power steering was offered on the '53 OHV six cyl. pickup not sure about the passenger cars.
But from what I could see, I believe the 6 cyl. pulley is 2 grooved for the power steering application. (not positive)

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

The OHV 6 cyl have a bit different style of pulley.
With some mass closest to timing cover.

It appears the OHV 6 cyl pulley, is not the answer either.

The mystery remains.

[3blapcam]

How long has this engine been together and running? Is there a chance the timing gears are not lined up correctly, but the timing has been moved enough to compensate to make it run?

3blap.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by 3blapcam

How long has this engine been together and running? Is there a chance the timing gears are not lined up correctly, but the timing has been moved enough to compensate to make it run?

3blap.

The original block was cracked, so I found a new block and then rebuilt the engine myself. The engine came out of the car on 1/29/11 and went back in the car on 6/29/11. It currently has 8434 mile on it since the rebuild. I was still working so between chasing the new block, parts and the time in the machine shop, it took a bit longer than normal. I had the machine work done locally, but I did the assembly. I have attached a picture of the timing alignment for your review. Let me know if you see something that is incorrect. They always say it is the picture that you didn't take the you will always need, but in this case I seem to have one. Maybe 51 MERC-CT can blow it up for me. I have never been sure how to do that.

For discussion sake, how would a engine run that had the "timing moved enough to compensate to make it run"? I would be interesting in knowing, to see if my engine is exhibiting any of those symptoms.

I have posted this previously, but for those of you wanting to know it sounds, come take a ride with me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8ekRfWS_eE

For those who say, any car runs well when it is warm, or too much music, I can't hear the engine, come take another ride with me, but you will have to put on a coat for this one. By the way I keep the choke turned off and it was 38 degrees that day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5biC4qjjTE&t=85s

[3blapcam]

Timing marks look good. Crank pulley looks good.

Yeah, I don't know about the timing being off and running still. I think I managed to do that as a kid (on a OHV engine) but it ran like poop. No way you'd put over 8K miles on it like that.

You know, I've heard (but have zero experience) that those original style cam gears will slip on itself, hence the solid aftermarket aluminum parts. If that did slip, I think it would still run with a twist of the distributor to compensate. I'll have to go back and look to see if the timing mark is way after TDC to run correctly/be in time... is that what's the problem? I'll have to go back and read the original post.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by 3blapcam

Timing marks look good. Crank pulley looks good.

Yeah, I don't know about the timing being off and running still. I think I managed to do that as a kid (on a OHV engine) but it ran like poop. No way you'd put over 8K miles on it like that.

You know, I've heard (but have zero experience) that those original style cam gears will slip on itself, hence the solid aftermarket aluminum parts. If that did slip, I think it would still run with a twist of the distributor to compensate. I'll have to go back and look to see if the timing mark is way after TDC to run correctly/be in time... is that what's the problem? I'll have to go back and read the original post.

I know the only way to check to see if is has slipped or if there is a broken tooth, is to remove the timing cover.

Really, I have no problem or issues with the running/performance of the engine, I was just wondering why when I use a timing light (rather than tuning it with a vacuum gauge, the way I was taught) it reads way off. (an 1 1/2" before the timing button on the pulley) I thought maybe someone had run into this previously and could provide insight. Maybe I should have just left the timing light in the drawer where it has been for many, many years, and will remain.

Thank you all for your reply's and suggestions, it is always a pleasure to learn from you.

[Hoop]

Merc, using whatever reference point for a start ... like the slot ... measure and see if the "timing button" is in the same place on both the installed pulley and your old pulley.

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by Hoop

Merc, using whatever reference point for a start ... like the slot ... measure and see if the "timing button" is in the same place on both the installed pulley and your old pulley.

From what I can tell, by putting the old pulley over the front of the new one, (shaft towards the engine) they appear to be the same.

[Merc Cruzer]

First, just a thank you all for your assistance.

I did get a chance to do a test run on Sunday. The car starts allot easier and quicker (one revolution). The engine seems noticeably quieter. Not sure if there is more power, if so it is not noticeable, but it does seem smother. Overall, I like that fact that I can now use the original timing mark in conjunction with my timing light, the original goal for this post.

Thanks again,

End post.