Barrett Brake Dokter Drum Lathe information needed

[supergnat]

I just purchased a Brake Dokter Brake Drum Lathe model 500B. It seems to work fine but I do not have the correct adapters for turning Model A drums. Does anyone have and extra set of adapters they would be willing to sell? I also could use an operators/maintenance manual. I suspect adapters for other brake late brands would also work but I have no idea how to get the correct part nubers.
Thanks,
Supergnat

[Kevin in NJ]

Here is a picture of the adapters with measurements to help Rich find the parts he needs.

[Bill in NJ]

Would these parts be interchangeable with other manufactors??

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

Here is a picture of the adapters with measurements to help Rich find the parts he needs.

I wonder if a machine shop could make then with the measurements given on the sheet.

[allen]

just went Thur same thing on a fmc, get a 11/16 arbor then i had a machine shop turn a cone for centering worked great now turn almost every weekend this week alone will do ten, will try and post picture send me a pm or call me at 601-408-5256 will help any way i can

[bagpiper]

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Bill in NJ, any standard automotive brake lathe will have a 1" arbor. The adapters are interchangeable.

[supergnat]

Thanks bagpiper. I just measured my arbor and it is 1 inch in diameter. Now the trick is to find the adapter numbers of another manufacturer which are still available. Does anyone know how to find that out?

Also:
Allen,
I just sent you a PM.
Thanks

[Kurt in NJ]

Aamco is the most common, E-bay has many listed, but the special one for inside the hub I have never seen in Aamco, to use the 1" adapters the sleeve is used --top right in the picture.

The top left adapter is the one that fits in the rear hub --with the bearing in place ,even the seal can be left in.

The cone adapter fits on the outside, I don't know if it was the intended adapter, but it fits good enough.

At first I worried about the accuracy of using the bearing in the hub for mounting so I checked the setup with a dial indicator, it has proved to be repeatable to .001"

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

You boyz better look again as you ain't gonna get a 1.000" arbor through a rear hub! My shaft measures .6850 with a set of calipers which like Allen said is the 11/16" (.6875") arbor.

Where this starts going "downhill" is most hubs have wear in the bearing race area. In the perfect world, you need to be able to index off of that but even .003" of wear in the hub will cause some lathe centering issues, ...especially using anything other than a cone type of adapter. The next problem with using a cone adapter is that many hubs have been damaged out by the axle shaft nut area so using a cone on that end can sometimes create an alignment issue too. And, things can be off equally if one uses the internal taper of the hub to align with. What I have noticed is there is generally less wear in the axle taper area, AND that is generally what everyone uses when they true-up the hub prior to swaging on the drums.

I have an extra 1.000" in arbor bar that I am seriously considering having a taper cut down to the .760" diameter at the end. What I have to think through is whether I want to just live with a 2.000" long taper on the arbor (entire hub taper is about 3.000"), --or whether I want to machine a interference-fit sleeve to go over the outside of the bar which then would allow me to start the taper at about 1.300 and taper down to the .760" over the entire 3.000 length. Any thoughts??

.

[Kevin in NJ]

Using cones to mount the hubs is not a best practice as the outer edge is not always machined well and may be damaged. So you may not always get a good true center.

Using the bearings assures that you will be in the center. That is why the adapters you see just have a rounded edge where the rest in on the bearing race surface.

The Barret rear adapter was repeatable .001" accuracy. Moving the adapter around did not change any appreciable amount when we checked the tooling. Kurt in NJ is my brother and we were unsure of the repeatable accuracy with his Drum Doktor so we checked and were quite surprised and happy with its repeatable accuracy.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

Using cones to mount the hubs is not a best practice as the outer edge is not always machined well and may be damaged. So you may not always get a good true center.

Using the bearings assures that you will be in the center. That is why the adapters you see just have a rounded edge where the rest in on the bearing race surface.

The Barret rear adapter was repeatable .001" accuracy. Moving the adapter around did not change any appreciable amount when we checked the tooling. Kurt in NJ is my brother and we were unsure of the repeatable accuracy with his Drum Doktor so we checked and were quite surprised and happy with its repeatable accuracy.

What do you do about a bearing surface on the outside of the rear drum/hub?? Now I agree 110% about aligning on the front hub/drum using the existing bearing races ( ...except for ones that have been MacGuyvered after the bearing race has spun. ).



.

[supergnat]

Bret,
One clarification regarding my Barrett drum lathe. Tha arbor shaft has two diameters about equal length. The diameter closest to the machine is 1 inch in diameter for a distance of about three inches. The diameter is then abruptly recuced to .790 inches and continues at that diameter for about three inches after which the threads begin. I can slide my rear hub over the beginning of the shaft.

I think if I have the correct adapter to fit the bearing on the rear hub the only purpose for the taper cone inserted into the outside of the rear hub is to provide stability and to allow the drum to be held in place securely. I may be wrong since I have never ever used a brake lathe.

I looked on EBay and only saw sets of adapters which are very expensive and have no information related to their use.
Supergnat

[JoeWay]

Originally Posted by supergnat

...I think if I have the correct adapter to fit the bearing on the rear hub the only purpose for the taper cone inserted into the outside of the rear hub is to provide stability and to allow the drum to be held in place securely...

Supergnat

That's true, but then it is also true of ALL the different adapters and cones.

Brent made an important point about the condition of the hub at the outer end. If it has been deformed by hammering, use of incorrect washers or nuts, "wallering out" due to loose nut, etc., then it will not provide a concentric register for the tapered adapter.

Joe

[larrys40]

There's always challenges but this is my take from my experience...
I do service work for many of the guys in the St. Louis Area and I have turned many brake drums on an old barrett brake lathe for the 5/8 axle shaft to accomodate the rear hub. I have always used the inside of the hub centering off the tapers. You just have to make sure you don't have any burrs, etc., as of course that would not allow the drum to center properly. It is common for the "outer" edge to be knocked or damaged but rarely the inside of the taper of the hub as it is pretty well protected by the axle washer/outer seal, and not as vulnerable. Just my experience..... yours may be different. I have litterally shaved .003 off a drum (inner taper centered) to correct a warpage/dragging issue and it did the job perfectly. if it wasn't centered it would not have curred the problem.

The hubs do wear, and mostly in a taper as if you measure the inside close to the hub with a telescoping guage it will be larger vs the outer rim where the seal is. And... when you think about it the hub and drum is "centered" from the axle taper anyway when mounted on the axle..... If you center the shoes ( as close as possible) with a KRW brake gauge or one of the aftermarkets it does the best that you can do ( always use a feeler gauge). I always recommend shoe arcing as well.

So in short I use a very small taper cone on the outer and large on the inner of the large bearing hub area ( bearing removed). Again, just make sure you don't have any burrs, nicks, etc. I haven't had trouble yet.
Larry S

[Kevin in NJ]

Something that is usually missed in these talks goes beyond what you read. Just going out and buying a new machine that is ready to go cut drums will not get you an accurately cut drum.

Feel and Intuition based on experience and knowledge play a large part in making accurate cuts. A person with feel and intuition can make accurate cuts in worn machines and a person without can make inaccurate cuts on a new machine that is dialed in.

For example, there seems to be two different methods of centering. Some are using tapers cones and would like to chuck the rear up on the axle taper surface. I used the Barrett plug that centers using the bearing. There are really several ways to do the job right as long as you know how to control the variables so you can repeat the job.

In my case I did not just assume the plug would properly center. I already knew that outer bearing surface was factory in diameter, there were no major dings on the flat perpendicular surface (the plug rest against the surface), and the bearing rollers were standard size (yes I would even check a new bearing).

If you do not check all the details you can end up with an out of center cut on a perfect machine. Brents idea of making a taper is a good idea, but tapers can be messed up too and you would need to check the taper surface. Realistically one would have to fix that taper before considering the hub as useful before you get to the point of putting a drum on it.

As pointed out using a taper cone works, but you must make sure the edge at the bearing is not beat on or deformed.

The ultimate goal for the rear hub is getting the drum in center to the center of the rear bearing race. The race is what will be centering the drum on the car. As long car you can repeatably make that center then you are good to go.

The front hubs I used never had spun bearing races. You MUST take the races out and make sure the surface has not been spun on. If the race has spun then you will have a loose bearing and need to consider if the hub is usable. You can tell if a bearing spun by the area being polish and missing machining marks. I had one hub where the race could be walked in and out by hand it was so loose.
Again, any repeatable method to get the center line of the hub to the center line of the drum works. The Barrett used a rounded face that is put against the face of the race which will put you at center.

I should point out I used all the standard Barrett tooling because I had it and it I could prove (to myself and my brother) I could repeatably set up the machine accurately. The adapters for the front hub had some damage on the rounded edge that touches the bearing race. I very accurately set them up on my lathe and dressed the working faces to ensure accuracy.

For the tooling and using other tools. The some of the Barrett adapters had a 1" ID and needed a spacer to get to the .680" needed for the shaft, see the picture above. Modern adapters may use a 1" hole and all you will need is that adapter to make them work.

To really cause trouble Craigslist in my area regularly has South Bend 9" lathes in the $400 to $1200 range with enough tooling to make the adapters. It is really handy having a SB 9" to make up stuff. I have made up a bunch of little things that you just can not get and they make restorations easier.

[Kurt in NJ]

The rear hub rides on the wheel bearing not the axle so it is more important that the drum be centered to the wheel bearing than the axle, if the inside of the hub is that worn that it is not accurate enough to center the drum something has to be done about the wheel bearing surface ---either use the sleeve that was used in 36 and the reduced diameter roller bearing or replace the hub.

The small cone that fits on the reduced diameter of the Barrett just fits into the small part of the taper on the hub, it is almost not needed when using the large adapter that fits into the bearing.

[supergnat]

Thanks for all the information and advice. Now I'm wodering if I should just re-sell the Barrett lathe and find someone to check and turn my drums if necessary. As Kevin pointed out Having the machine with the correct attachemnts doesn't guarantee a good job unless the user knows what they are doing. I could probably get my brake drums turned many times for what it may cost me to buy new adapters for my machine.

I will continue to look for the adapters for now but I don't have much hope of finding what I need. If I actually give-up I'll post the lathe on the swap meet section.

Thanks again,
Supergnat

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by supergnat

Thanks for all the information and advice. Now I'm wodering if I should just re-sell the Barrett lathe and find someone to check and turn my drums if necessary. As Kevin pointed out Having the machine with the correct attachemnts doesn't guarantee a good job unless the user knows what they are doing. I could probably get my brake drums turned many times for what it may cost me to buy new adapters for my machine.

I will continue to look for the adapters for now but I don't have much hope of finding what I need. If I actually give-up I'll post the lathe on the swap meet section.

Thanks again,
Supergnat

Ahh, you are in a difficult quandary indeed. I own two brake lathes like yours, and do a dozen or so brake jobs a year, ...and I even wonder whether it is prudent for me to own a brake lathe.

I guess that often times people are lulled into an obsession of buying every tool known to man during a restoration just for the purpose of doing a job one time. It seems I am so infected with this disease that I should be attending AA-type meetings for therapy!

.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by fordgarage

Hey! Stop talking about me like that!

.

[RockHillWill]

Hey, I thought he was talking about me!!