The Ford Barn

Ford56 · 11-22-2018, 08:08 AM

Took out the '56 Victoria yesterday. Car started right up. After only 2 blocks, making a left turn, it died. No warning. No chugging, sputtering, hesitation. Nothing. Just died. Coasted to side of road. Tried turning key, no clicking or starter noise. Checked battery cables, and all other observable electrical connections; all secure. Dome light bright. Called flat bed. Shop says maybe the "Neutral safety switch". They said there was only one bolt holding it on, and it was loose. They tightened it. They said there should be two.

Does this make sense to you? I know nothing about a neutral safety switch, other than what Google just told me. I drove it home from the shop yesterday, and it seemed fine, but, what advice can you give me going forward? I'm hesitant to take it out now. LOL.

ahshoe · 11-22-2018, 09:18 AM

Neutral safety switch would not make the car kill in the first place. It is ONLY for Starting. Your car was already running.More like a bad coil but even they usually need to warm up before failing.Sounds electrical for sure Maybe condenser.

40cpe · 11-22-2018, 09:37 AM

Don't give up on enjoying that beautiful car! It is very possible that the neutral safety switch caused the no-start issue. Since you had only driven it two blocks, it could be as simple as a tune-up issue with the choke or carburetor that caused it to die on the turn. Of course, it could be an electrical issue, so carry some diagnostic tools with you as you drive.

Ford56 · 11-22-2018, 12:55 PM

Yeah, it sure did seem likely it is an electrical issue, but the coil and condenser are relatively new, as is the battery. So, it has me stumped. The carburetor was running a little "rich" so that was 'leaned' out. The RPM's were a little low too, so that was raised by 50. After the holiday, probably on Saturday, if the weather cooperates, I'll take it out for a test spin to try to restore my confidence. Thanks for your replies.

Ford56 · 11-22-2018, 12:57 PM

Also, thanks for calling it a beautiful car! While it was sitting on the flat bed, gleaming in the sunlight, it sure did look great. I don't get to see it too often 'from a distance'.

Y-Blockhead · 11-22-2018, 01:01 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ahshoe

Neutral safety switch would not make the car kill in the first place. It is ONLY for Starting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40cpe

It is very possible that the neutral safety switch caused the no-start issue.

Yes, it's true the Neutral Safety Switch could cause the No-Start issue but it would not have shut off the car in the first place.

Once you move the gear selector out of neutral the Neutral Safety Switch is out of the picture.

I think I would investigate farther as to WHY to engine died...

scicala · 11-22-2018, 01:03 PM

New ignition parts are the scariest ones. Lots of issues with condensers from China.
NAPA has the best quality as far as parts stores.

How did you determine the carb was running rich, and what did you change on it ?

Sal

dmsfrr · 11-22-2018, 01:13 PM

A couple things to double check...
Loose or corroded connections on the ballast resistor, including the rivets that connect the terminals to the resistor coil itself. I had to solder these to get a good connection.

The wire from the coil to the points may be intermittent/broken inside the insulation if someone pulled on it too hard when installing it thru the wall of the dist housing, or...
If the dist has a ceramic insulator and small bolt for that connection, the ceramic sleeve and insulating washer can be broken.

And, loose connections on the ground wire from the points to the dist housing.
.

Herman Munster · 11-22-2018, 02:46 PM

Yes, the NSS will only cause a no start condition. I often need to jiggle my shifter in neutral for my car to start. I've had a hard time trying to get my switch adjusted just right.
Try a good quality condenser to see if that helps. Then if that doesn't help a new coil may be needed.

Ford56 · 11-22-2018, 04:48 PM

Thanks for the replies, guys. I've got a lot going on today & tomorrow, but, I'll check out these ideas on Saturday. I'm thinking like most of you, its an electrical problem, which is typically the most difficult to determine. I'll take a peek in the distributor to see what those connections look like, and the ballast resistor connections. I'm hesitant to start replacing parts, like the condenser or coil, until I get a better idea of what it most certainly is not.

Daves55Sedan · 11-22-2018, 11:57 PM

Earlier this year, I made a right turn into a grocery store parking lot in my '55 Courier wagon and she died. I coasted into an empty parking spot. But the engine started right up again and ran fine about 30 seconds after I had turned that corner. I immediately became suspicious that possibly the car battery had enough sediment to slide over to one side when I turned that corner and build up touching the bottom plates and shorting out the battery. But once the car had levelled off again in the parking lot, the sediment settled back down flat away from the bottom of the plates.
After I got back home, I took the battery out (it was just barely three years old) and took it down to Autozone to be checked. They said it checked out fine. But I didn't want to mess with it. I bought a new battery, and it has never happened again.

Daves55Sedan · 11-23-2018, 12:02 AM

The Ford starter/neutral switch is mounted to the base of the steering column on a bracket held in place with a U-bolt. It is located just behind the steering gearbox. the switch is fastened to that bracket with two 5/16" hex-head self-tapping machine screws. The switch has slotted holes to allow for proper adjustment. If one of those screws is missing, it is not enough to hold the switch in place securely. I suggest replacing the missing screw.

Daves55Sedan · 11-23-2018, 12:16 AM

My experience with condensers goes kinda like this; If it starts and runs, leave it alone (especially now that good condensers are very difficult to find). I have run the same condenser in a distributor for 20+ years without fail. There have been a couple of times that a very old condenser, having been rode too hard and put away hot caused the condenser to break down enough that it let me know it was time for a change. After a long trip I had a little trouble starting the next morning. The second morning, the car would not start at all. Changed the condenser and the engine started right up. But I have never had one fail in the middle of a trip before. Not saying it couldn't happen, but maybe much less of a possibility.
If you need to buy a new condenser, I would warn against getting any from the repro parts suppliers. They are Chinese junk and many of them are bad right out of the box and the ones that do work are lousy quality and only last a year or so.
Right now, I am running a Lucas brand heavy duty condenser from NAPA in my '55 Fairlane sedan. Getting good service out of it.

Daves55Sedan · 11-23-2018, 12:34 AM

The thing that caught my eye is that you said it died after making a turn, which immediately led me to suspect your battery might be shorting out on turns. But another thing that can cause the engine to die on a turn is if your carburetor float needle gets temporarily stuck open by some sediment. That will cause your float bowl to fill up to high, spill over and flood out your engine, killing it.
Don't know if you have the Holley 2100, Ford EBU 2bbl, or the 4bbl teapot. I know it can happen with both the 2bbl carbs they offered then and also the Holley 1904 used with the 223 I-block 6 is susceptible. Not sure if the teapot has this problem.
I personally would not hesitate to take off the air-horn of the carb, blow out the float needle with spray carb cleaner and check the float setting. Last time I did it, took me less than 15 minutes. But that is just me. If you are mechanically minded, these cars are great to learn with. A shop manual is always helpful and you can get more detailed rebuilding literature for your specific carb from oldcarmanualproject on the internet.

Ford56 · 11-23-2018, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daves55Sedan

The Ford starter/neutral switch is mounted to the base of the steering column on a bracket held in place with a U-bolt. It is located just behind the steering gearbox. the switch is fastened to that bracket with two 5/16" hex-head self-tapping machine screws. The switch has slotted holes to allow for proper adjustment. If one of those screws is missing, it is not enough to hold the switch in place securely. I suggest replacing the missing screw.

I was told by the shop mechanic, a guy in his 60's who seemed to know all about this type of vintage, that it should have had two screws holding that bracket in, and there was only one, and he tightened that one, and added the missing one. When I drove it home Wednesday, I made several 90 degree turns w/o problems. Today, I checked all the connections suggested above, and all is good; no loose or frayed wires, and no corrosion on any cables or wires I can see. I know its always possible there is corrosion under a part of insulation, and it would break the electrical circuit, but everything is only a few years old, so, I'm reluctant to start just pulling out parts to replace what "could" be the problem.

I started the car up today, and it fired right up. I didn't get a chance to take it out, and probably won't for a few days, but, when I do, I'll get back to everyone with follow up/status.

I really appreciate the suggestions, if for no other reason, to confirm what I was thinking, and point out something I might have forgotten from "back in the day" when I had these kinds of cars, over 50 years ago. Can you believe it, right??!! LOL.

Ford56 · 11-23-2018, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daves55Sedan

My experience with condensers goes kinda like this; If it starts and runs, leave it alone (especially now that good condensers are very difficult to find). I have run the same condenser in a distributor for 20+ years without fail. There have been a couple of times that a very old condenser, having been rode too hard and put away hot caused the condenser to break down enough that it let me know it was time for a change. After a long trip I had a little trouble starting the next morning. The second morning, the car would not start at all. Changed the condenser and the engine started right up. But I have never had one fail in the middle of a trip before. Not saying it couldn't happen, but maybe much less of a possibility.
If you need to buy a new condenser, I would warn against getting any from the repro parts suppliers. They are Chinese junk and many of them are bad right out of the box and the ones that do work are lousy quality and only last a year or so.
Right now, I am running a Lucas brand heavy duty condenser from NAPA in my '55 Fairlane sedan. Getting good service out of it.

I agree 100%; if it runs, leave it alone. In my experience, from "back in the day" it was pretty unusual for a condenser to fail. But, they were so cheap, that while in the distributor changing things, why not change that out too? Today, I try not to mess w/anything that is working. I drive my old cars so seldom, maybe only 200 to 400 miles a year, that I rely somewhat on nothing needing work for years at a time

Ford56 · 11-23-2018, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daves55Sedan

The thing that caught my eye is that you said it died after making a turn, which immediately led me to suspect your battery might be shorting out on turns. But another thing that can cause the engine to die on a turn is if your carburetor float needle gets temporarily stuck open by some sediment. That will cause your float bowl to fill up to high, spill over and flood out your engine, killing it.
Don't know if you have the Holley 2100, Ford EBU 2bbl, or the 4bbl teapot. I know it can happen with both the 2bbl carbs they offered then and also the Holley 1904 used with the 223 I-block 6 is susceptible. Not sure if the teapot has this problem.
I personally would not hesitate to take off the air-horn of the carb, blow out the float needle with spray carb cleaner and check the float setting. Last time I did it, took me less than 15 minutes. But that is just me. If you are mechanically minded, these cars are great to learn with. A shop manual is always helpful and you can get more detailed rebuilding literature for your specific carb from oldcarmanualproject on the internet.

Thanks for these thoughts. I hadn't thought about it being a battery problem, although I realize it could be. I once had a battery cable somehow come right off the post while I was driving. The car died and I coasted to the side of the road. I was looking over the engine and just about ready to call for a flat bed, when I saw the cable was laying beside the battery. WTH??!! For the life of me, I don't know how that happened. So, hooked it up, was on my way.

The thing that makes me think its not a battery problem this time is the dome light was a strong as ever, and the car started right up when I first went out, and after being flat bedded to the shop, and getting shaken around, and maybe reconnecting some electrical connection, it started right up again in the shop parking lot after being removed from the flat bed. Then, it was shut off, and it wouldn't start up. Then, it did when they drove into the rack area. After reattaching the bracket and inserting a second holding screw, its started every time, which must be 12-15 times.

I hate electrical problems.

poolplayer1 · 11-23-2018, 04:22 PM

My 55 ford wagon would run for a few miles and than shut off,like If I had turned the key off. I replaced the condenser,the points,the wire that goes from the dist.to the coil,and the coil.Still had the same problem,shutting off.
I removed the ballast resistor and found it had been getting hot so I replaced it.
Ran the wagon for 20 miles and never shut off.In my case,it was a faulty ballast resistor.

Ford56 · 11-23-2018, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poolplayer1

My 55 ford wagon would run for a few miles and than shut off,like If I had turned the key off. I replaced the condenser,the points,the wire that goes from the dist.to the coil,and the coil.Still had the same problem,shutting off.
I removed the ballast resistor and found it had been getting hot so I replaced it.
Ran the wagon for 20 miles and never shut off.In my case,it was a faulty ballast resistor.

Thanks. Yup, I've had a ballast resistor go bad on me too, not in my Ford, but, I've experienced it. Something for me to keep in mind.

Lanny · 11-23-2018, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poolplayer1

My 55 ford wagon would run for a few miles and than shut off,like If I had turned the key off. I replaced the condenser,the points,the wire that goes from the dist.to the coil,and the coil.Still had the same problem,shutting off.
I removed the ballast resistor and found it had been getting hot so I replaced it.
Ran the wagon for 20 miles and never shut off.In my case,it was a faulty ballast resistor.

===============================================

The ballast resistor Does get hot, because it is a resistor.

I had one that was getting bright red hot, and found that my
coil was more of the problem. Replaced coil, then started good.

.

11-22-2018, 08:08 AM	#1
Ford56 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2018 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 159	Car died 2 blocks from home. Took out the '56 Victoria yesterday. Car started right up. After only 2 blocks, making a left turn, it died. No warning. No chugging, sputtering, hesitation. Nothing. Just died. Coasted to side of road. Tried turning key, no clicking or starter noise. Checked battery cables, and all other observable electrical connections; all secure. Dome light bright. Called flat bed. Shop says maybe the "Neutral safety switch". They said there was only one bolt holding it on, and it was loose. They tightened it. They said there should be two. Does this make sense to you? I know nothing about a neutral safety switch, other than what Google just told me. I drove it home from the shop yesterday, and it seemed fine, but, what advice can you give me going forward? I'm hesitant to take it out now. LOL.

11-22-2018, 09:18 AM	#2
ahshoe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Eastern Iowa Posts: 350	Re: Car died 2 blocks from home. Neutral safety switch would not make the car kill in the first place. It is ONLY for Starting. Your car was already running.More like a bad coil but even they usually need to warm up before failing.Sounds electrical for sure Maybe condenser.

11-22-2018, 09:37 AM	#3
40cpe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Star, MS Posts: 4,024	Re: Car died 2 blocks from home. Don't give up on enjoying that beautiful car! It is very possible that the neutral safety switch caused the no-start issue. Since you had only driven it two blocks, it could be as simple as a tune-up issue with the choke or carburetor that caused it to die on the turn. Of course, it could be an electrical issue, so carry some diagnostic tools with you as you drive.

11-22-2018, 12:55 PM	#4
Ford56 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2018 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 159	Re: Car died 2 blocks from home. Yeah, it sure did seem likely it is an electrical issue, but the coil and condenser are relatively new, as is the battery. So, it has me stumped. The carburetor was running a little "rich" so that was 'leaned' out. The RPM's were a little low too, so that was raised by 50. After the holiday, probably on Saturday, if the weather cooperates, I'll take it out for a test spin to try to restore my confidence. Thanks for your replies.

11-22-2018, 12:57 PM	#5
Ford56 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2018 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 159	Re: Car died 2 blocks from home. Also, thanks for calling it a beautiful car! While it was sitting on the flat bed, gleaming in the sunlight, it sure did look great. I don't get to see it too often 'from a distance'.

11-22-2018, 01:03 PM	#7
scicala Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Detroit suburb, MI Posts: 3,706	Re: Car died 2 blocks from home. New ignition parts are the scariest ones. Lots of issues with condensers from China. NAPA has the best quality as far as parts stores. How did you determine the carb was running rich, and what did you change on it ? Sal

11-22-2018, 02:46 PM	#9
Herman Munster Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: SW WA state. Posts: 564	Re: Car died 2 blocks from home. Yes, the NSS will only cause a no start condition. I often need to jiggle my shifter in neutral for my car to start. I've had a hard time trying to get my switch adjusted just right. Try a good quality condenser to see if that helps. Then if that doesn't help a new coil may be needed. __________________ 1956 Ford Fairlane Town Sedan 292 V8 with Ford-o-Matic

11-22-2018, 04:48 PM	#10
Ford56 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2018 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 159	Re: Car died 2 blocks from home. Thanks for the replies, guys. I've got a lot going on today & tomorrow, but, I'll check out these ideas on Saturday. I'm thinking like most of you, its an electrical problem, which is typically the most difficult to determine. I'll take a peek in the distributor to see what those connections look like, and the ballast resistor connections. I'm hesitant to start replacing parts, like the condenser or coil, until I get a better idea of what it most certainly is not.

11-22-2018, 11:57 PM	#11
Daves55Sedan Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Granite City, Illinois Posts: 3,008	Re: Car died 2 blocks from home. Earlier this year, I made a right turn into a grocery store parking lot in my '55 Courier wagon and she died. I coasted into an empty parking spot. But the engine started right up again and ran fine about 30 seconds after I had turned that corner. I immediately became suspicious that possibly the car battery had enough sediment to slide over to one side when I turned that corner and build up touching the bottom plates and shorting out the battery. But once the car had levelled off again in the parking lot, the sediment settled back down flat away from the bottom of the plates. After I got back home, I took the battery out (it was just barely three years old) and took it down to Autozone to be checked. They said it checked out fine. But I didn't want to mess with it. I bought a new battery, and it has never happened again.

11-23-2018, 12:02 AM	#12
Daves55Sedan Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Granite City, Illinois Posts: 3,008	Re: Car died 2 blocks from home. The Ford starter/neutral switch is mounted to the base of the steering column on a bracket held in place with a U-bolt. It is located just behind the steering gearbox. the switch is fastened to that bracket with two 5/16" hex-head self-tapping machine screws. The switch has slotted holes to allow for proper adjustment. If one of those screws is missing, it is not enough to hold the switch in place securely. I suggest replacing the missing screw.

11-23-2018, 12:16 AM	#13
Daves55Sedan Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Granite City, Illinois Posts: 3,008	Re: Car died 2 blocks from home. My experience with condensers goes kinda like this; If it starts and runs, leave it alone (especially now that good condensers are very difficult to find). I have run the same condenser in a distributor for 20+ years without fail. There have been a couple of times that a very old condenser, having been rode too hard and put away hot caused the condenser to break down enough that it let me know it was time for a change. After a long trip I had a little trouble starting the next morning. The second morning, the car would not start at all. Changed the condenser and the engine started right up. But I have never had one fail in the middle of a trip before. Not saying it couldn't happen, but maybe much less of a possibility. If you need to buy a new condenser, I would warn against getting any from the repro parts suppliers. They are Chinese junk and many of them are bad right out of the box and the ones that do work are lousy quality and only last a year or so. Right now, I am running a Lucas brand heavy duty condenser from NAPA in my '55 Fairlane sedan. Getting good service out of it.

11-23-2018, 12:34 AM	#14
Daves55Sedan Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Granite City, Illinois Posts: 3,008	Re: Car died 2 blocks from home. The thing that caught my eye is that you said it died after making a turn, which immediately led me to suspect your battery might be shorting out on turns. But another thing that can cause the engine to die on a turn is if your carburetor float needle gets temporarily stuck open by some sediment. That will cause your float bowl to fill up to high, spill over and flood out your engine, killing it. Don't know if you have the Holley 2100, Ford EBU 2bbl, or the 4bbl teapot. I know it can happen with both the 2bbl carbs they offered then and also the Holley 1904 used with the 223 I-block 6 is susceptible. Not sure if the teapot has this problem. I personally would not hesitate to take off the air-horn of the carb, blow out the float needle with spray carb cleaner and check the float setting. Last time I did it, took me less than 15 minutes. But that is just me. If you are mechanically minded, these cars are great to learn with. A shop manual is always helpful and you can get more detailed rebuilding literature for your specific carb from oldcarmanualproject on the internet.

11-23-2018, 04:22 PM	#18
poolplayer1 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 399	Re: Car died 2 blocks from home. My 55 ford wagon would run for a few miles and than shut off,like If I had turned the key off. I replaced the condenser,the points,the wire that goes from the dist.to the coil,and the coil.Still had the same problem,shutting off. I removed the ballast resistor and found it had been getting hot so I replaced it. Ran the wagon for 20 miles and never shut off.In my case,it was a faulty ballast resistor.