Signal lights problem

[FRANK PKNY]

I just installed turn signal lights on my roadster. Used the standard chrome signal switch that many of the suppliers have. I am an experienced tinkerer. These things should not stump me. However this problem has got my mind in an uproar. Everything is working as it should. I have a three wire signal flasher installed in the system. The power for the system comes to the flasher via the negative side of the battery and goes to the x connection. The vehicle is a positive ground as Ford made it. Power to x on the flasher L to the switch, and P to the light in the switch. All is good here. Now the problem. I have power going through the P wire at .003 mv when the switch is in the neutral off position. It's enough voltage to just make the small bulb in the switch glow very low. There should not be any voltage there in this position. My only thought is a improperly made flasher. I have ordered a new one and hope this solves the problem. Any one have insight to this problem?

[MikeK]

Get another flasher!
Inside a typical old USA made flasher (left) and chinese trash (right).

The P (pilot) terminal on the cheap flasher on the right is simply a diode isolated tap from the L output. If the diode leaks current your indicator lamp will glow. Also, look at the fine wires flying in the sky on the chinese flasher! A couple bumps on the road and they short to the case. There is also no strain relief on any connection- some are unsoldered and just a pinch between the terminal spade and the plastic base.

The completely mechanical flasher on the left has isolated separate relay contacts for the P and L terminals.

[Patrick L.]

Like Mike says and shows, chinese flashers are pure junk. I don't know of any 535 newly American made units, so, NOS can be found on eBay.

Signalstat units are full of grease and sometimes they need to be cleaned out, they also need to be grounded sometimes.

[FRANK PKNY]

Thanks mike , that is what I suspected. I have ordered a new one from Macks they are the only ones that list a flasher with a beeper built in. I tried a Vissio beeper on this set up but due to the leakage it sounded all the time. On my 39 PU I used the one Macks sells with the built in beeper and it's been in service several years. This is not the first time I had this happen. When I did my 35 way back I had the same problem . Thanks to you and Patrick for chiming in. Frank

[kd4lok]

See my recent thread entitled Help w/ Turn Signal Switch and responses. I also had flasher issues until I installed the Grote flasher. Grounding the flasher and also the controller seem to be key. Note I am using 12V negative ground. Hope this helps.
Bob

[RawhideKid]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Well, one thing you ALL are forgetting is, this turn signal system is HOT all the time with the 6v Pos chassis. Which means the internal workings of that 12v Neg chassis switch is going to be live and bleeding the little pixies through the indicator light bulb.

Now, as long as the system remains as Henry made it, there is not much you can do short of tossing a switch inline with the power to the switch, but then if you forget to turn it on, you don't have signals, or brake lights.

See, Henry made the car with everything operable without a key, and used the key to interrupt the pixies to the distributor.

So, in closing, I would suggest some way to interrupt the pixies to the turn switch, OR remove the light from the switch.

[kd4lok]

Originally Posted by RawhideKid

Well, one thing you ALL are forgetting is, this turn signal system is HOT all the time with the 6v Pos chassis. Which means the internal workings of that 12v Neg chassis switch is going to be live and bleeding the little pixies through the indicator light bulb.

What am I missing here? I didn't find anywhere in the original post that a 12V negative chassis switch was being used.

Bob

[kd4lok]

I tried to edit my last post but failed. My question: Does the switch/controller really care whether connected to positive ground or negative ground? Thanks.

Bob

[Patrick L.]

I can only remember installing one brand over the decades and this type doesn't care and I can't see why one would. But, there could well be some that that do care about polarity.

[RawhideKid]

Originally Posted by FRANK PKNY

Used the standard chrome signal switch that many of the suppliers have.

Do you have a chrome signal switch that is 6v Pos chassis?

If so I retract that part of the statement, as I was only going from my experiences.

[RawhideKid]

Originally Posted by kd4lok

I tried to edit my last post but failed. My question: Does the switch/controller really care whether connected to positive ground or negative ground? Thanks.

Bob

What do the directions say?

Normally NO, it shouldn't care, but you must admit that this is not a "normal" car with what is now, normal wiring.

Because the turn signal switch will act like all the rest of the lighting system, it is able to light all the lights without the key. IF changing the relay doesn't fix the problem, leave everything as is and just remove the light bulb in the switch.

[FRANK PKNY]

The car is 6V positive ground. I don't think the polarity is the issue. You still need to complete the circuit. What am I missing here? I feel that the breaker is leaking a small amount of current. As Mike says, a china part most likely is the issue. I'll post when I get the new breaker in. Polarity should not be an issue. All circuits just need to be completed in order to light any bulb et.

[FRANK PKNY]

This is from an old post, sums it up!
The Skinned Knuckles article "Why Negative Ground?" I referred to above was the Sept. 2009 issue, #398. The simple question about a relatively modern occurrence was asked: Why did all remaining positive-ground U.S. manufacturers switch to negative-ground in 1956? The author summarizes,

"Much as I would like to announce that we have an answer, unfortunately just the opposite is true. Not only have I not obtained facts, but I am also puzzled beyond belief that the wide variety of automotive historians and curators whom I questioned could not come with a factual answer."

One U.K. electrical engineeer and museum curator who was queried on the subject replied, "You have opened a can of worms..."

The SK article includes a table showing ground usage by 35 car models since 1932. Twenty five of those used positive ground for at least part of their existence. The various models that became part of GM, except for Cadillac, always used negative ground. Similarly, Duesenberg, Essex, Stutz, and Reo. Cadillac switched from positive to negative ground after WWII. Hudson switched from negative to positive ground in 1934, and then back to negative in 1956. The "universal" switch to negative ground never occurred in the U.K. Nash Metropolitans remained positive ground, and allegedly some US car models made for export to the U.K. are still set up with positive ground.

The various bogus rationales supporting one or the other grounding usage that have been offered over the years, including the corrosion thing, are briefly reviewed. The fact is that in 1956 there was a sudden consensus that it would be a good idea to standardize, but exactly how and why that consensus emerged at that moment in time remains puzzlingly mysterious.

I think it's clear that there really is no strong argument to be made one way or the other, but standardization is a good idea, and, happily, it came to pass! Too bad Ford was on the wrong side of history, but it's no big deal.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I don't buy "the wrong side of history" bit. If all the car makers had gone with positive ground, it would have worked just as well. I think the main goal of standardizing the polarity was due to the number of radios and other aftermarket electrical accessories becoming available by the mid 50's.

Electronic flashers and LED lights are polarity sensitive.

[tinkirk]

Originally Posted by FRANK PKNY

The car is 6V positive ground. I don't think the polarity is the issue. You still need to complete the circuit. What am I missing here? I feel that the breaker is leaking a small amount of current. As Mike says, a china part most likely is the issue. I'll post when I get the new breaker in. Polarity should not be an issue. All circuits just need to be completed in order to light any bulb et.

i kind of had the same issue the lights would flash as they should have but, the little indicator light would not!
I found that the switch was not grounded to the steering column
Tinkirk/Terry

[FRANK PKNY]

One of the first things I did and verified was a good ground on the steering column. If you did not have a good ground it would be possible to back feed. I also confirmed a good ground to the chassis. The positive or negative ground is not an issue for me. It would only make a difference if you were using a diode in the circuit, it's possible that the China breaker, flasher has a bad diode or a negative ground diode. I think that could be the problem, I plan to dissect the old one when I remove it. A diode is easy to verify just using a dry cell battery. As mike has shown in the photo the new flashers are electronic, not electromagnetic, therefore the diode could be the culprit.

[kd4lok]

Originally Posted by FRANK PKNY

I have power going through the P wire at .003 mv when the switch is in the neutral off position.

Will be interesting to hear what you determine to be the source of the current leakage. Also curious as to how you measured the .003 mv drop if not a typo? 0.3 volts might be closer to the limits of my meter.

Bob

[Will N]

I seem to remember a similar issue when I installed my signals. Turns out that it was a ground problem. The body of the switch has to be grounded, and with it being clamped to my beautifully painted steering column... no ground. I chose to scrape off a little paint under the switch and tin the bare metal to make a good ground.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

On my Signal Stat, I tucked an external star washer under the mounting strap & the GREEN light stayed OFF, in the OFF position. The case HAS to be grounded.
Bill W.

[chrisabes]

After installing a set of indicators (flashers) on my 6 volt '28 Phaeton, they only illuminated with a faint glow. On re reading the instructions, I found the units are sent out with 12 volt bulbs installed with 6 volt bulbs supplied seperately.. Changed the bulbs and it worked perfectly.