The Ford Barn

TomT/Williamsburg · 04-03-2012, 07:26 AM

OK - just before Christmas my newly rebuilt roadster flattie had an engine problem that sounded like a broken valve spring. I had plenty of oil pressure but I was not running on all 8 cylinders.

I’ve finally opened up the roadster flattie (life sometimes waylays the best of intentions sometimes) and found that the 2-piece valve guides separated on one valve in number 7 hole causing the valve to “kick out” at the bottom and not rest on the lifter. I’m thinking the keeper “missed” on this one and there are 2 other valves starting to do the same thing as I see the guide halves are separated but they are still functioning. Should be a rather simple fix of reinstalling the 3 valves with the keeper properly seated on the 2 halves. All the valves look OK so far but I will be checking them and the guides for any damage. Stock lifters look fine. When the problem occurred I was about 10 miles from home and I limped home at a slow speed.

Your thoughts regarding any other issues I should be aware of?

Thanks in advance for your comments .....

Walt Dupont--Me. · 04-03-2012, 07:41 AM

When you say keepers, are you refering to the valve guide horse shoe locks or the valve spring keepers at the bottom of the valve? Are all the guides horse shoe locks in the guide slot where they belong? It's pretty hard for half the guide to slide down unless the spring keeper came off the bottom of the valve and the spring slide down. Do you have the correct springs? Not the 51-53 short springs. Walt

rotorwrench · 04-03-2012, 08:23 AM

A person can run the single piece guides in the older motors too. For originality, the 2-piece are the way to go but for reliability, I'd use the later valve set up. As Walt mentioned, it sounds like there is a problem with the horse shoe clips for the guides. The spring tension usually keeps them in there pretty well. If one broke off an ear, it might allow this. But more than one would be considered a rare occurance.

JM 35 Sedan · 04-03-2012, 09:03 AM

Hi Tom, it does sound like something is not right with/at the springs. If the free length of the spring is incorrect (maybe too short) that would allow those inserts to move down. Using valves with the longer than stock stems, without spring shims, could also allow the guides to move down. I don't remember which series Flathead engine you have in your roadster but was wondering why you used split inserts unless you are also using mushroom ended valves? Also wondering if those guides could be slighty undersized or maybe the guide pockets slightly oversize? I kinda hesitate to ask this but.....is this a pro built engine or?? Another wild thought...do the valves have proper clearance in the heads? Could they be hitting the bottom of valve pockets that are not cut deep enough? Hope you can get this fixed before our next cruise or road trip so we can all get to see this roadster.

PS...I don't remember if I thanked you properly for that shock rebuild certificate you gave me....so just want to say...THANK YOU!! That will be a huge help for me with all the sets I need to get rebuilt for my cars. I owe you big time for that one Buddy!!

TomT/Williamsburg · 04-03-2012, 10:03 AM

Walt, Rotorwrench: thank you for your input. What I'm saying is that 13 of the 16 valves are fine - the horse shoe locks are in the valve guide properly. The 3 valves in question "seem" like the horse shoe clips either did not "catch" one of the halves or the clips or were faulty or have failed. This is a newly rebuilt engine with all new parts, the proper springs, etc, as I know the builder very well. This was his last engine build however, so some "attention to detail" may have been missed - he did just turned 86. Not that age has anything to do with it but eyesight may have been an issue.

Now, as for the 1-pc guides - can I move up to these without altering the valve/stock lifter in this 40 engine? It is bored 30 over and has a 4" crank, essentially a 255 cube

TomT/Williamsburg · 04-03-2012, 10:07 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

Hi Tom, it does sound like something is not right with/at the springs. If the free length of the spring is incorrect (maybe too short) that would allow those inserts to move down. Using valves with the longer than stock stems, without spring shims, could also allow the guides to move down. I don't remember which series Flathead engine you have in your roadster but was wondering why you used split inserts unless you are also using mushroom ended valves? Also wondering if those guides could be slighty undersized or maybe the guide pockets slightly oversize? I kinda hesitate to ask this but.....is this a pro built engine or?? Another wild thought...do the valves have proper clearance in the heads? Could they be hitting the bottom of valve pockets that are not cut deep enough? Hope you can get this fixed before our next cruise or road trip so we can all get to see this roadster.

PS...I don't remember if I thanked you properly for that shock rebuild certificate you gave me....so just want to say...THANK YOU!! That will be a huge help for me with all the sets I need to get rebuilt for my cars. I owe you big time for that one Buddy!!

John, all of these are possible I suppose - this engine was the last engine built by a friend of mine (he's now 85) so I am thinking not about the right hardware but that he just "missed" on the guides for these 3 valves and/or installed them incorrectly and didn't see it. Everything else looks perfect to me.

Hey, and no worries on the shock rebuilt certificate - have you got any Ardun heads to trade?!?!?!

Mark Slight · 04-03-2012, 10:10 AM

Ford Motor Company never made a (flattie) !

JM 35 Sedan · 04-03-2012, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark W. Slight

Ford Motor Company never made a (flattie) !

Hmmm...you say no flatties?? How about dizzies, carbies, babbies, cabbies and fatties?

Mart · 04-03-2012, 10:54 AM

I bought an engine once where the horseshoe clips were not inserted in the groove in the guide, but between the spring and the guide.

I wonder if this one might be similar??

Mart.

JM 35 Sedan · 04-03-2012, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomT/Williamsburg

Hey, and no worries on the shock rebuilt certificate - have you got any Ardun heads to trade?!?!?!

Hey Tom, I just happen to have 10 original sets stashed in the loft of my shed. Not sure I will ever use any of them. How many sets do you need?

4dFord/SC · 04-03-2012, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

Hey Tom, I just just happen to have 10 original sets stashed in the loft of my shed. Not sure I will ever use any of them. How many sets do you need?

You missed posting this by a couple of days

Bruce Lancaster · 04-03-2012, 11:27 AM

I think just minor concerns:
Make sure the 6512 clips lap considerably on both halves, make sure they are not spread/fit closely due to bad experiences when extracted, make sure they are seated into the little recess in block. Normally there are no reliability issues with this stuff, and if they are not distorted and are in right they will be fine as long as the engine lasts.

TomO · 04-03-2012, 12:09 PM

Tom,

The clips were probably not put in correctly, I would examine them for damage and purchase new ones to replace any damaged ones. Use your valve guide removal bar to pull both halves of the guides down and insert the horseshoe clip in the groove of the guide.

The one piece guides will work in your engine, but you have to replace all of the guides, springs and valves at considerable cost.

TomT/Williamsburg · 04-03-2012, 12:22 PM

Thanks gents for all your comments - we'll get the 3 valves in question out this evening and see where I'm at. I'll be getting new horse-shoe clips for them at a minimum.

I'll keep everyone posted ....

OLD...BILL · 04-03-2012, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

Hmmm...you say no flatties?? How about dizzies, carbies, babbies, cabbies and fatties?

John; you forgot " tranies " .... OLD....BILL

JM 35 Sedan · 04-03-2012, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD...BILL

John; you forgot " tranies " .... OLD....BILL

Thanks Bill. I was struggling trying to come up with that one but just couldn't remember so I made up some new ones instead...LOLOL

Those two Howard Cams will be in the mail tomorrow. Have not forgotten about making those oil pump test rigs. Just need to get my priorities in order and get them done. My deadline for having those completed and a '39 trunk handle unlocked by key is just prior to leaving here for the GNM in Lake Tahoe, '13.

TomT/Williamsburg · 04-04-2012, 08:57 AM

OK - I checked everything out and here's what I need: 3 horseshoe clips, 2 pair of split valve guides (one is OK, the second has some "looseness" when installed on the valve, and the valve that was kicked out one half is toast), and a set of head gaskets.

Everything else looks proper and I checked all of the other horse-shoe clips and they are all fine.

On to another issue, I was cleaning the heads last night and I noticed something. The "dish" area where the piston comes up on the one is not as wide (diameter) and seems or looks like it may be more shallow than on the other. Could it be one head has been milled? How/where would I measure from to be sure? The way I would think is diameter is easy and use a straight edge on the head surface and measure the depth. If indeed one head has been milled, I'm not sure how that effects the engine .... sorry, but I've not done this before.

It was late when I finished up last night so I did not get a chance to actually measure both .... I'll try and get to it tonight but Wed is bowling night w/Dad (smile) so I may not get the chance ....

Thanks again for your thoughts ......

jim1932 · 04-04-2012, 10:44 AM

So does that mean there is a part of a spring clip circulating in your oil some where?

TomT/Williamsburg · 04-04-2012, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim1932

So does that mean there is a part of a spring clip circulating in your oil some where?

No broken parts - just some bent/banged up ones fortunately.

TomT/Williamsburg · 04-09-2012, 08:32 AM

OK - got my parts and I'm in the process of cleaning everything for a reinstall. I did notice the heads were different from side to side in that the "squelch" area of the heads above the piston area were visibly different. One looked "milled", the other not. I had never noticed this before ( duh!!!). Since my pistons are slightly domed, I'm erring on the side of caution. I had another head with a "deeper" pocket in the piston area that matched the one head I was using so I'm cleaning it up for use.

It will be a week or two before a test run as I have some other issues to take care of but I will post my results then.

Thanks for all the help!

04-03-2012, 07:26 AM	#1
TomT/Williamsburg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Williamsburg, Virginia Posts: 2,654	Engine Issue - Update OK - just before Christmas my newly rebuilt roadster flattie had an engine problem that sounded like a broken valve spring. I had plenty of oil pressure but I was not running on all 8 cylinders. I’ve finally opened up the roadster flattie (life sometimes waylays the best of intentions sometimes) and found that the 2-piece valve guides separated on one valve in number 7 hole causing the valve to “kick out” at the bottom and not rest on the lifter. I’m thinking the keeper “missed” on this one and there are 2 other valves starting to do the same thing as I see the guide halves are separated but they are still functioning. Should be a rather simple fix of reinstalling the 3 valves with the keeper properly seated on the 2 halves. All the valves look OK so far but I will be checking them and the guides for any damage. Stock lifters look fine. When the problem occurred I was about 10 miles from home and I limped home at a slow speed. Your thoughts regarding any other issues I should be aware of? Thanks in advance for your comments ..... Last edited by TomT/Williamsburg; 04-09-2012 at 08:25 AM.

04-03-2012, 07:41 AM	#2
Walt Dupont--Me. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Gardiner Me. Posts: 4,200	Re: Engine Issue - Your thoughts please When you say keepers, are you refering to the valve guide horse shoe locks or the valve spring keepers at the bottom of the valve? Are all the guides horse shoe locks in the guide slot where they belong? It's pretty hard for half the guide to slide down unless the spring keeper came off the bottom of the valve and the spring slide down. Do you have the correct springs? Not the 51-53 short springs. Walt

04-03-2012, 08:23 AM	#3
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,440	Re: Engine Issue - Your thoughts please A person can run the single piece guides in the older motors too. For originality, the 2-piece are the way to go but for reliability, I'd use the later valve set up. As Walt mentioned, it sounds like there is a problem with the horse shoe clips for the guides. The spring tension usually keeps them in there pretty well. If one broke off an ear, it might allow this. But more than one would be considered a rare occurance.

04-03-2012, 09:03 AM	#4
JM 35 Sedan Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Near Rising Sun, Maryland Posts: 10,858	Re: Engine Issue - Your thoughts please Hi Tom, it does sound like something is not right with/at the springs. If the free length of the spring is incorrect (maybe too short) that would allow those inserts to move down. Using valves with the longer than stock stems, without spring shims, could also allow the guides to move down. I don't remember which series Flathead engine you have in your roadster but was wondering why you used split inserts unless you are also using mushroom ended valves? Also wondering if those guides could be slighty undersized or maybe the guide pockets slightly oversize? I kinda hesitate to ask this but.....is this a pro built engine or?? Another wild thought...do the valves have proper clearance in the heads? Could they be hitting the bottom of valve pockets that are not cut deep enough? Hope you can get this fixed before our next cruise or road trip so we can all get to see this roadster. PS...I don't remember if I thanked you properly for that shock rebuild certificate you gave me....so just want to say...THANK YOU!! That will be a huge help for me with all the sets I need to get rebuilt for my cars. I owe you big time for that one Buddy!! __________________ *John* *"Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts". Albert Einstein* Last edited by JM 35 Sedan; 04-03-2012 at 09:19 AM.

04-03-2012, 10:03 AM	#5
TomT/Williamsburg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Williamsburg, Virginia Posts: 2,654	Re: Engine Issue - Your thoughts please Walt, Rotorwrench: thank you for your input. What I'm saying is that 13 of the 16 valves are fine - the horse shoe locks are in the valve guide properly. The 3 valves in question "seem" like the horse shoe clips either did not "catch" one of the halves or the clips or were faulty or have failed. This is a newly rebuilt engine with all new parts, the proper springs, etc, as I know the builder very well. This was his last engine build however, so some "attention to detail" may have been missed - he did just turned 86. Not that age has anything to do with it but eyesight may have been an issue. Now, as for the 1-pc guides - can I move up to these without altering the valve/stock lifter in this 40 engine? It is bored 30 over and has a 4" crank, essentially a 255 cube

04-03-2012, 10:10 AM	#7
Mark Slight Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dixon, CA Posts: 473	Re: Engine Issue - Your thoughts please Ford Motor Company never made a (flattie) !

04-03-2012, 10:54 AM	#9
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,755	Re: Engine Issue - Your thoughts please I bought an engine once where the horseshoe clips were not inserted in the groove in the guide, but between the spring and the guide. I wonder if this one might be similar?? Mart.

04-03-2012, 11:27 AM	#12
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: Engine Issue - Your thoughts please I think just minor concerns: Make sure the 6512 clips lap considerably on both halves, make sure they are not spread/fit closely due to bad experiences when extracted, make sure they are seated into the little recess in block. Normally there are no reliability issues with this stuff, and if they are not distorted and are in right they will be fine as long as the engine lasts.

04-03-2012, 12:09 PM	#13
TomO Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 362	Re: Engine Issue - Your thoughts please Tom, The clips were probably not put in correctly, I would examine them for damage and purchase new ones to replace any damaged ones. Use your valve guide removal bar to pull both halves of the guides down and insert the horseshoe clip in the groove of the guide. The one piece guides will work in your engine, but you have to replace all of the guides, springs and valves at considerable cost. __________________ TomO

04-03-2012, 12:22 PM	#14
TomT/Williamsburg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Williamsburg, Virginia Posts: 2,654	Re: Engine Issue - Your thoughts please Thanks gents for all your comments - we'll get the 3 valves in question out this evening and see where I'm at. I'll be getting new horse-shoe clips for them at a minimum. I'll keep everyone posted ....

04-04-2012, 08:57 AM	#17
TomT/Williamsburg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Williamsburg, Virginia Posts: 2,654	Re: Engine Issue - Your thoughts please OK - I checked everything out and here's what I need: 3 horseshoe clips, 2 pair of split valve guides (one is OK, the second has some "looseness" when installed on the valve, and the valve that was kicked out one half is toast), and a set of head gaskets. Everything else looks proper and I checked all of the other horse-shoe clips and they are all fine. On to another issue, I was cleaning the heads last night and I noticed something. The "dish" area where the piston comes up on the one is not as wide (diameter) and seems or looks like it may be more shallow than on the other. Could it be one head has been milled? How/where would I measure from to be sure? The way I would think is diameter is easy and use a straight edge on the head surface and measure the depth. If indeed one head has been milled, I'm not sure how that effects the engine .... sorry, but I've not done this before. It was late when I finished up last night so I did not get a chance to actually measure both .... I'll try and get to it tonight but Wed is bowling night w/Dad (smile) so I may not get the chance .... Thanks again for your thoughts ......

04-04-2012, 10:44 AM	#18
jim1932 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Hancock, MA Posts: 2,783	Re: Engine Issue - Your thoughts please So does that mean there is a part of a spring clip circulating in your oil some where?

04-09-2012, 08:32 AM	#20
TomT/Williamsburg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Williamsburg, Virginia Posts: 2,654	Re: Engine Issue - Update OK - got my parts and I'm in the process of cleaning everything for a reinstall. I did notice the heads were different from side to side in that the "squelch" area of the heads above the piston area were visibly different. One looked "milled", the other not. I had never noticed this before ( duh!!!). Since my pistons are slightly domed, I'm erring on the side of caution. I had another head with a "deeper" pocket in the piston area that matched the one head I was using so I'm cleaning it up for use. It will be a week or two before a test run as I have some other issues to take care of but I will post my results then. Thanks for all the help!