a 400 on BAT went for 22k

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by ronn

would love to see a survey on this board of how many people drive their car 100 miles a year
500 miles a yr
1000 miles a yr and over 3000 miles a yr.


would really provide a lot of info on what "quality" of cars we tend to drive.
or maybe is your car a #1 #2 #3 or a parts car? (exaggeration is in order)

Ronn, I think the answer to the 'how many miles driven' question is greatly dependent on whether you have a level #3 or a level #4 car. The ones that won't Stop, Start, & Steer well, and generally just look crappy tend to not be used as much because they can cause as much stress as happiness.

If you have a #3 level car that is reliable and looks nice, the owner and their family are all too proud and wants to be seen everywhere they go. Not just in the beginning when the car is new to them, but repeatedly over time where the family's time is being spent driving instead of the car in the garage awaiting repairs or more parts. I know plenty of hobbyists who routinely drive their Model-As 300-500 miles a month just out doing errands and going to events several times a week.

I also know of many Model-Aers that are scared to get out of their neighborhood in their restored Model-A because it is unreliable. Generally speaking, Spouses do not like this, -and as such they choose not to participate in evening rides or going to dinner with friends & family. Therefore it is easier for that owner to just leave it parked in the garage where it may accumulate 100 miles a year of driving.

( I suspect this A400 fit into that category )

[Oldbluoval]

Ronn…
All of us need a good nights sleep….the older I get the less sleep seems to work.
There are 3 A400 sitting in my shop. I also make a significant number of parts for them and cabbys
A400 are a lot of show and much aggravation imho. The top irons are surpassed only by the 180a in fragility. Also the top rail remaining doesn’t give as much credence to
“Convertible” but they are really beautiful cars. My fav is really 68c but as hard to find as a 400.
But that’s why Baskin & Robbins makes 32 flavors!

[todd3131]

I tried to buy a basket case in 2009 that was just the sheet metal no seats no top no wood and no chassis. The POS went for 14k! I have wanted a 400 my entire life but wasn't willing to pay the money they have been getting. This car with all it's issues is well worth what it sold for and I wish I had known about it because I wouldn't have haggled just sent the money. I am going to step my efforts in finding one now.

[Keith True]

I think a car like this has a bottom line because of what it is.Quality,correctness,and condition come pretty far down the list.I couldn't make a guess as to what that line would be because they have no appeal to me.I think they're uglier than a stump fence.However,in 2005 I bought one from an estate on the coast of Maine.It had 1960 plates on it,and it was almost mummified because of the dryness of the building it was stores in.It was absolutely rust free and 100%complete.I paid $14,500 for it and in 2008 I sold it for nearly for what this one shown here brought.

[ronn]

interesting duscussion and thanks for everyone who participated.


Like you Todd, I find the body style enamoring! Yes Oval, they might have their problems or crappy engineering in certain aspects, but so do many high end cars in the v 12 and v 16 arena, for exmaple.
I guess what it comes down to is, the a 400 for me is a piece of sculpture in looks and one of my top 3 designs. Only beaten by the towncar for me. I have had the chance to buy an a 180 for a bit less then this car, but the style of the a 400 is still draws me in like a siren. Have heard with the top down, you can barely see out the back............
something that doesnt worry me.

[todd3131]

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Originally Posted by ronn

interesting duscussion and thanks for everyone who participated.


Like you Todd, I find the body style enamoring! Yes Oval, they might have their problems or crappy engineering in certain aspects, but so do many high end cars in the v 12 and v 16 arena, for exmaple.
I guess what it comes down to is, the a 400 for me is a piece of sculpture in looks and one of my top 3 designs. Only beaten by the towncar for me. I have had the chance to buy an a 180 for a bit less then this car, but the style of the a 400 is still draws me in like a siren. Have heard with the top down, you can barely see out the back............
something that doesnt worry me.

I agree with you about the 68c but I had a 31 Chevrolet cabriolet and it is similar to it and that kind of filled that void. Sold the car for 25 k and it resold a few years back for 37k need that convert.

[CHuDWah]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I think part of what you are saying is spot-on, ...and I also feel there are many (about 400 as of now) that are reading this trying to learn, so there is value in us discussing this topic.


So often I have talk with potential customers, and new customers about this same thing. Often they made a purchase without considering many of the things we have discussed above, and after purchase they unfortunately find themselves forced into spending more money because the car was not what they thought they were buying. It doesn't need to be this way IMO. Unfortunately, just because someone paid a certain price for a vehicle does not mean it is worth that amount. I think more often than not, the buyer makes the purchase based on what they think they are getting instead of what they are actually receiving.


As for the authenticity part of my post, part of what increases the value of 'restored' car is the appearance of being authentic. The opposite of that also holds true with values.

As for the 'crap shoot', your point is valid however the experienced Model-A mechanic should know enough about what (s)he is looking at & listening to during the test drive to make a great assessment of that vehicle's condition. Most of us here are experienced well enough with a Model-A that we can tell an engine's condition by listening to the starter spinning, by listening for bearing noises, listening for exhaust leaks, looking at the oil fill tube for blow-by, and watching the crankshaft pulley spin. A quick drive around the block shifting gears noting how loose the shift lever is, listening for gears growling, and checking for jumping out of gear on quick deceleration. The same for steering. Just because they claim it has new spindle bolts does not mean they were installed correctly. Turning the steering wheel while driving slowly tells us much about the condition of the gearbox and linkages. Shaking the front wheels tells me much about the steering arms, spindles, and bearings. By doing this, most experienced Model-A restorers can take most of the 'crap-shoot' portion out of the buying experience IMO.

So bringing this full circle, if any of us participating in this thread would have accompanied the Buyer to inspect that vehicle, -and if we had shared with them exactly (-i.e.: only) what we have discussed in this post, do you feel they still would have made the purchase for the same amount it sold for, ...or would they have possibly bid a lesser amount? My vote is the latter. So often people get caught up in the vehicle's 'shine', or because they like the bodystyle, ...and they just let their emotions set the price of the car for them. That is why I feel it is so important for a novice buyer to have a well qualified Model-A mechanic there to do the evaluation and the inspection with them.

I don't mean to sound flippant but the above pretty much boils down to caveat emptor. I agree if one isn't qualified to assess a car, they should consult someone who is. But it needs to be understood that while an expert can dispel most uncertainty, it still isn't 100%.

I'm nowhere near your level of expertise but I'm experienced enough to not get hurt, at least not too badly, on a purchase. I confess that early on, a car or two weren't what I thought I was buying. Does that mean they weren't worth what I paid? In the sense that I couldn't sell them for that amount, yes but maybe the education was worth the loss. And experienced or otherwise, I've probably paid more than I should have for a car simply because I liked it. OTOH, some command a premium because of what they are, e.g., a 400 versus say, a 29 Tudor.

I didn't mean to imply that authenticity doesn't affect value. It obviously does. My point is folks have different motivations for owning old cars so the value they place on authenticity differs. That value may be high for some who want to show a fine pointer. Others may want just a safe, reliable, more-or-less authentic driver but really don't care whether the reverse oscillating framistan is plated or painted. Still others may not care about driving or if the car even runs when they buy it because they like working on it. And there probably are lots of other reasons.

I don't know the motivation or experience of this car’s buyer. So I can't answer your question whether they would have bid differently given knowledgeable consultation. All I can do is reiterate they paid $22K so apparently that's what it's worth to them.

[CHuDWah]

Originally Posted by ronn

interesting duscussion and thanks for everyone who participated.


Like you Todd, I find the body style enamoring! Yes Oval, they might have their problems or crappy engineering in certain aspects, but so do many high end cars in the v 12 and v 16 arena, for exmaple.
I guess what it comes down to is, the a 400 for me is a piece of sculpture in looks and one of my top 3 designs. Only beaten by the towncar for me. I have had the chance to buy an a 180 for a bit less then this car, but the style of the a 400 is still draws me in like a siren. Have heard with the top down, you can barely see out the back............
something that doesnt worry me.

I may as well as jump in re the aesthetic and I'm ambivalent about it. IMHO, the 400-A with the top up is beautiful - with the top down, it's butt-ugly.

[Joop]

Both sides

[Joop]

I love them

[nkaminar]

Here is my take: If you are going to use the car as a driver then the one sold for $22,000 is probably good enough. Any car you buy will need some work, even if it is only maintenance. The little things that are broken can be fixed as time and funds allow. If it is going to be a driver then I would leave the paint and upholstery alone. Engine upgrades, including any overhaul, can be done as needed, ditto the transmission, rearend, adding an overdrive, etc. Any safety equipment, like good operating brakes need to have first priority.

I have been able to help a couple club members recently. Both cars would not stop when standing on the brakes. In one car, the brakes were so rusted up that the levers would not move. That car was bought as is and I felt sorry for the new owner.

Whoever buys a car, if you are not an experienced Model A person, please bring a knowledgeable Model A mechanic along to inspect the car. Who would by a house or a yacht without a inspection or survey?

[Jordan]

I have been on this forum since it switched owners and I will say I cannot remember a car or restoration that Brent didn't pick apart on here. There's always areas of improvement that he suggests or makes known. He owns a restoration company so naturally he is going to pick apart other people's work.

Bottom line, it's not a bad price for the car. As others have said, basket cases and a400's that are in such a need of restoration that they can't be driven go in the mid teens. We can say "this is wrong or this is incorrect"... but at the end of the day it's an a400 that is put together, decently painted and decent interior, runs & drives... 22k is not a bad price. I think if he turned around and sold it he wouldn't have a problem getting his money back.

Even if he took a basket case and put it together to match this level of work and wear/tear.... you'd be in it for well over 22k.

[Oldbluoval]

“I have been on this forum since it switched owners and I will say I cannot remember a car or restoration that Brent didn't pick apart on here. There's always areas of improvement that he suggests or makes known. He owns a restoration company so naturally he is going to pick apart other people's work”

I don’t agree that Brent’s sharing of the ups and downs of a car, procedure, part or otherwise is in any way a pick apart. Brent has a wealth of experience and knowledge that he simply shares. Often a “what if” or counterpoint promotes critical thinking. Further, Brent has such a backlog that he would have no motive in criticizing others.
Imho

[WHN]

Originally Posted by Jordan

I have been on this forum since it switched owners and I will say I cannot remember a car or restoration that Brent didn't pick apart on here. There's always areas of improvement that he suggests or makes known. He owns a restoration company so naturally he is going to pick apart other people's work.

Bottom line, it's not a bad price for the car. As others have said, basket cases and a400's that are in such a need of restoration that they can't be driven go in the mid teens. We can say "this is wrong or this is incorrect"... but at the end of the day it's an a400 that is put together, decently painted and decent interior, runs & drives... 22k is not a bad price. I think if he turned around and sold it he wouldn't have a problem getting his money back.

Even if he took a basket case and put it together to match this level of work and wear/tear.... you'd be in it for well over 22k.

Well said!

I wanted to reply as you did, but I’ve already said the same thing a number of times.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Jordan

I have been on this forum since it switched owners and I will say I cannot remember a car or restoration that Brent didn't pick apart on here. There's always areas of improvement that he suggests or makes known. He owns a restoration company so naturally he is going to pick apart other people's work.

Bottom line, it's not a bad price for the car. As others have said, basket cases and a400's that are in such a need of restoration that they can't be driven go in the mid teens. We can say "this is wrong or this is incorrect"... but at the end of the day it's an a400 that is put together, decently painted and decent interior, runs & drives... 22k is not a bad price. I think if he turned around and sold it he wouldn't have a problem getting his money back.

Even if he took a basket case and put it together to match this level of work and wear/tear.... you'd be in it for well over 22k.

Jordan, I know you & I have butted heads in the past over differences of opinion, and I really do not want to continue that.

As for this car, I am only using my experience from what I have seen first-hand in my line of work. My opinions are solely my own. Mine do not carry any more weight than yours, -or anyone else's here.

Is it possible we are all assuming the engine runs decent? Are we also assuming the engine has been rebuilt? I believe the sales ad has it worded in such a way where it likely had a replacement engine installed 40 years ago before it came to the states. I have been around enough South American refurbished Model-As to know their craftsmanship can often be lacking and Macgyvered. When you look at the videos, they sure are short without a lot of time to listen for abnormalities. Hard to tell if the one video has smoke or dust coming from the back. ( I didn't see dust coming from the front wheels though. ) I have also learned that pictures generally always make a vehicle look better than it is.

Something else to ponder. The odometer shows 1,200 miles. If so, then 1,200 miles in 40 years equals to about 30 miles annually. From my observations, low mileages put on cars after they were restored generally means there was a reason why it wasn't driven. Is that reason because it was in a museum for all those years, -or was it because it did not run & drive well so it wasn't taken out of the garage much? And, we may never know the real reason why it wasn't driven.

My bottom line thoughts are that while some feel it may have been a steal, apparently no one here felt it was a good enough 'steal' to be the new owner, ...but hopefully the new owner does get much enjoyment out of his new car.

[ronn]

Brent you make many very valid points, and so do the rest of us. We are all entitled to our opinions and that is what makes these threads interesting.
I didnt buy the car because it is on the other side of the country and you can add 2k for shipping. then there is another 1k to bat for selling it. In the end, still think its a great deal, really like it and thats because its my cup of tea.
Old Blue may prefer sedans. nothing wrong with that either, but I do believe rarity holds far more value compared to condition. Rarity cant be easily found, condition can always be brought up in the future.
Finally, as Ive said before, we all have different budgets and values, and that doesnt make anyone right or wrong. One van gogh may be worth a million and another 50 million. is there a problem with that? Is what it is.

[Jeff/Illinois]

delete

[updraught]

I've only seen one bunch of chassis frames at a swap meet here from South America.
It made even the worst ones here look good. And most old cars here were used on farms and had a hard life.
That car sure would look good as a mild hot rod. Keep it looking the way it is and update the running gear and you would get your money back and more.

[Keith True]

I sold a 35 Ford a few months ago.It brought a good price because of it's desirability,not it's condition.It had the magic words attached to it,three window coupe.It sold for probably 3 times what it would have if it was a sedan. The street rod guys told me the price of admission was not as important as just getting it in their possession.I had around 30 responses,with the usual 20 idiots.i had a half dozen serious folks,and the second one in line bought it. This car was a 60's restoration,not run since 1978,It needed a full re-restoration.It did run sweet though.I had some interesting proposals on it too.One guy offered to wire me $500.to hold it for 7 days,and if he liked it he would pay the price.If not I would be $500.richer.Another offered $1000.more if I would sell it to him,and cut out the two people I had made arrangements with to see it.

[ronn]

well Keith, I was one of your idiots........you wanted a trade and that made the whole thing complicated........


LOL if it was cash, it would have been super simple- but you said you didnt want that.


hmmmmmm