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Old 04-20-2021, 03:53 PM   #81
Pete
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

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Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif View Post
The "New Engine" has 8 counterweights and ample room for added tungsten weights if desired.

> Assuming the "new" engine is the same physical dimensions as an original, at one time you yourself said it was only possible to get to 65% balance due to space limitations. Having balanced a very large number of these engines, I would say that is a close estimate.

Balance shafts are used to make buyers of 4-cylinder engines comfortable because they don't see or feel vibrations.

> Balance shafts have been around since the early 1900's and they were invented to INCREASE THE LIFE OF ENGINES. Caterpillar uses them in several of their most popular engines. Several popular automotive engines use them.

Engines with balance shafts that are used in racing have their balance shafts discarded to reduce weight.

> Partially true, (it is done primarily to gain hp) but what does that have to do with your engine? It is illegal for sanctioned racing.

> Don't get me wrong, I am all for your project and enjoy seeing the progress.
I think it will be good for the model A hobby.
I was just trying to clear up some marginal information
...
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Old 04-20-2021, 08:37 PM   #82
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Pete,

Thanks for your comments.

With an iron or steel crankshaft, it is impossible to get enough counterweight to counteract the bending forces that occur at TDC when the connecting rod stops the piston, however for those that want more counterweight for events like land speed records, there is plenty of room to add tungsten or depleted uranium.

The problem with a heavy crankshaft is that it makes an engine sluggish with the added inertia and acceleration/deceleration becomes an issue.

Balance weights are separate from the crankshaft and do nothing to reduce stresses in the crankshaft.

Balance shafts reduce the inherent shaking that comes with a 4-cylinder engine. In the case of heavy equipment, balance shafts keep the machine from shaking itself apart and fretting damage.
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Old 04-20-2021, 09:43 PM   #83
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

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Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif View Post
Pete,

Thanks for your comments.

With an iron or steel crankshaft, it is impossible to get enough counterweight to counteract the bending forces that occur at TDC when the connecting rod stops the piston, however for those that want more counterweight for events like land speed records, there is plenty of room to add tungsten or depleted uranium.

> Your engines will never be used for land speed racing unless they change the rules but since you mentioned heavy metal, it is not necessary to achieve a balance that works very well on racing engines even with a 3 main crank.. This is done by bob weight percentage and can achieve a .01 inch ounce balance over the rpm range the engine operates in.

The problem with a heavy crankshaft is that it makes an engine sluggish with the added inertia and acceleration/deceleration becomes an issue.

Balance weights are separate from the crankshaft and do nothing to reduce stresses in the crankshaft.

> I assume you meant "shafts", not "weights"? Anyway, only partially right. ANYTHING that reduces vibration in an engine will reduce stress in the crankshaft.

Balance shafts reduce the inherent shaking that comes with a 4-cylinder engine. In the case of heavy equipment, balance shafts keep the machine from shaking itself apart and fretting damage.

> Machine vibration and base mounting vibration in stationary engines is a SECONDARY problem. A THIRD order problem is vibraton to the earth itself. While seemingly not a problem, it CAN and IS being measured and will catch up to us some day.
This thread has been hi-jacked long enough. I am done.

...
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Old 04-21-2021, 12:56 AM   #84
Terry Burtz, Calif
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Pete,

Thanks for your correction to my post.

Your assumption is correct where I meant to say "Balance shafts" instead of "Balance weights".

The "New Model A Engine Kit" may fool the fine point judges at MARC and MAFCA judging events, but is not intended to fool the judges at any speed or other events where a complete engine teardown is needed for certification.

Bonneville and other venues have a multitude of classes. Perhaps a new class will emerge for those that choose to run the "New Model A Engine Kit".

I agree that in your words this thread has been "hi-jacked", but your inputs are much needed and appreciated. Please continue to post with your comments. I read all posts and am continually revising the "Builders Guide" to make it better based on comments.

Terry Burtz
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Old 04-21-2021, 05:43 AM   #85
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Secondary imbalance forces increase with the square of rpm. Counter-rotating balance shafts are essential in modern I-4 engines with short-stroke, higher-rpm architectures. Less so in a Model A engine's long-stroke, lower rpm world. There, piston speed becomes prodigious before the secondary imbalance forces become intolerable.
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Old 04-21-2021, 10:04 AM   #86
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

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Secondary imbalance forces increase with the square of rpm. Counter-rotating balance shafts are essential in modern I-4 engines with short-stroke, higher-rpm architectures. Less so in a Model A engine's long-stroke, lower rpm world. There, piston speed becomes prodigious before the secondary imbalance forces become intolerable.
Ahhhhhhhhhhh, OKayyyyyyy
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Old 04-21-2021, 02:20 PM   #87
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

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Ahhhhhhhhhhh, OKayyyyyyy

If I followed this correctly, I think itís saying RPM is going to be a problem quicker than vibration will be a problem.


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Old 04-21-2021, 05:57 PM   #88
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Got it!
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Old 04-24-2021, 11:46 PM   #89
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Hi Tail Dragger, I purchased the 2020CP bearings from Rock Auto's along with the rear main oil seal
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Old 04-25-2021, 07:29 PM   #90
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

We have finished our Burtz 5-Main Model A Engine, and installed it in our Victoria in preparation for the Great Race.

We also installed our Serr Miller Head on the engine, that also has a FSI Solid State Ignition, Brierley M-13 Cam, Stromberg 97 Carburetor (with #45. Jets), JE Pistons, and the Header for the Miller Head. I enclosed a picture of an original Model A Piston along with the piston we used for reference.

We have a started the Break-In process and have a little over 300 miles with no problems, no leaks. Everything is going fine, engine runs smooth, accelerates well.

We are pleased with the engine.
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Old 04-25-2021, 10:03 PM   #91
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

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We have finished our Burtz 5-Main Model A Engine, and installed it in our Victoria in preparation for the Great Race.

We also installed our Serr Miller Head on the engine, that also has a FSI Solid State Ignition, Brierley M-13 Cam, Stromberg 97 Carburetor (with #45. Jets), JE Pistons, and the Header for the Miller Head. I enclosed a picture of an original Model A Piston along with the piston we used for reference.

We have a started the Break-In process and have a little over 300 miles with no problems, no leaks. Everything is going fine, engine runs smooth, accelerates well.

We are pleased with the engine.
Vicky,
I am building virtually the same engine. Only the pistons and carbs will be different. If you would share please, what is your cold oil pressure at idle and warm operating oil pressure. I am interested in knowing what the Stipe pump is producing. Did you add any additional oil pressure relief other than the stock relief in the pump? Thanks for what you can share.
Good Day!
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Old 04-25-2021, 10:26 PM   #92
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Thank to all especially Terry Burtz for all of the “Fantastic info-tech” on this exciting and long awaited in terms of a “MAJOR IMPROVEMENT” over the 93 yr old A engine design and the 89 yr old B-C design. I would email Terry each time I received an engine update and followed along with its progress to process. This guy “NEEDS to be Thanked” along with the guys who continue to make the alternative engine a physical reality. I only wish that I could get one ASAP as I’d like to try on of our “Original NOS CYCLONE A-B Heads”, not the ones that carry our name w/o our consent as they are not even based off of our original tool. If this engine calls for us to re-tool ours then perhaps we could/should.
Great to see such great tech Terry. Wishing you the best!!!!!
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Old 04-26-2021, 01:26 AM   #93
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

I’m not far behind on getting mine running. I have about a half of a day buttoning up the engine itself and then getting it in the frame and all hooked up. Only thing I need to fabricate is the oil filter housing bracket. It’s breakin time after that and then off to Oshkosh. Can’t wait to get there and meet up with Terry, John, and Leonard. A really great bunch of guys.
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Old 04-26-2021, 03:39 AM   #94
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Hi Vicky, I will also be using a Stipe oil pump in my new engine. Can you please let me know which pressure relief vale spring did you use 40psi or 50psi and what oil pressure are you getting. I live in Perth Western Australia
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Old 04-26-2021, 07:50 AM   #95
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Vicky, that is a great looking engine. Nice job.

What do you think the HP is?
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Old 04-26-2021, 09:18 AM   #96
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

The engine runs with a little over 30 PSI Oil Pressure when cold and after it warms up, and when warm, it drops a little below 30 PSI when idling.

The engine has an External Oil Filter, and with the Header and Fuel Pump on the right side, I placed the filter on the left side of the engine under the Starter. I used an Earl 2077 filter mount because it has a 1/8 NPT output for the head and pressure gauge in addition to the output for the engine.


The Stipe pump has the Green Spring, 35-40 PSI, and there is no change is oil pressure when accelerating or making sharp turns, very consistent. The Oil fitter is a Wix 51085 (a short PH 8), the lines to and from the filter are AN 6, and the head & pressure sensor line is 1/8 inch. The Engine oil is Valvoline VR-1 20w-50.

I am not sure of the HP, but a friend wants to put the car on his chassis Dyno after we break it in. I will post those results, I would expect about 100 HP at the wheels.
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Old 04-26-2021, 09:39 PM   #97
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

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Hi Vicky, I will also be using a Stipe oil pump in my new engine. Can you please let me know which pressure relief vale spring did you use 40psi or 50psi and what oil pressure are you getting. I live in Perth Western Australia
PM sent.
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Old 04-27-2021, 12:07 AM   #98
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

Hi Vicky
Great looking engine. Waiting for my Terry block to arrive to sweden.
Which JE piston do you use.
Best regards Soren

Last edited by esso; 04-27-2021 at 01:48 AM.
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Old 04-27-2021, 07:07 AM   #99
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Thanks Vicky for the information re oil pressure, 30 psi is great.
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Old 04-27-2021, 11:48 AM   #100
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Default Re: The new Burtz Mosel A engine

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Hi Vicky
Great looking engine. Waiting for my Terry block to arrive to sweden.
Which JE piston do you use.
Best regards Soren
Pistons were purchased from Dennis Piranio, Piranioís Antique Automotive, http://modelaparts.net/index.html
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