59a - or 59ab

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

Is there any way to tell if a 59A on the heads and block is 3-1/16 or 3-3/16? Just stare at it I guess. Walt

[papanomad]

pencil test?

[flatjack9]

Only way is to remove the head and measure the bore.

[Flathead]

I never trust what the heads say, most have been swapped around over the years. The only sure thing is that you'll know what the heads are. I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know Walt

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

Originally Posted by papanomad

pencil test?

I never think of pencil test on a 59 block, I've built so many of these things in my many years but I'll I tell when I get the heads. Thanks Walt

[rotorwrench]

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The 41A block (has 59 on bell & was 221 replacement block beginning in 1944) does have characteristics of the prewar 221 engines but I haven't yet studied one to see how close they are. It would be interesting to note these differences.

[GB SISSON]

I have a block on my stand that's '59' and 221 cu in, 3 1/16. Heads are still off. I could get good pics if I knew what to shoot or measure.

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

The 41A block (has 59 on bell & was 221 replacement block beginning in 1944) does have characteristics of the prewar 221 engines but I haven't yet studied one to see how close they are. It would be interesting to note these differences.

This engine I just started on 59 on the bell and 59AB on the heads, a rebuild tag on the back built by shop in Boston Mass. I'm sure it's oversize, I have got about half doz of those tags kicking around the back of my bench, the heads stuck pretty hard,been socking, trying to get them off today, let you know, Walt

[scooder]

Walt,
The small bore 59's pass the pencil test, not seen one that didn't pass.
Martin.

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

Originally Posted by scooder

Walt,
The small bore 59's pass the pencil test, not seen one that didn't pass.
Martin.

Well guys I got the stuck heads off this 59 block, 3-3/16 + .030 it won't hold a pencil, so it's just a 59AB block with 59A heads, 46-47-48 crab dis. So I'll check pencil from now on, never know if anyone has changed heads. So if it holds the pencil test chances are it's a 3-1/16 or something, What if it was bored 3-3/16 and cain't tell? Then you go and bore another 1/8, dose anyone know if the walls are the same thickness? chances are there all the same block and the factory bored some 3-1/16 cause they had alot pistons left over. Walt

[rotorwrench]

I'd sure like to see one of the 41A blocks so I could be sure for my own information but some folks say they are very much like the prewar 221 blocks and have thin cylinder walls like they were using the prewar cores in the post war core box. I hope someone comes up with one to photograph for the block ID thread some day. It would be nice to know what all the true characteristics are.

[GB SISSON]

OK, so what's the pencil test?

[Cecil/WV]

Its my understanding that if a pencil will lay on the block just above the timing cover that its a '40 221 block. I have one in my stack.

[rotorwrench]

That's what it is. The post war engines had a different design on the front of the block so there is no pronounced flange there for the timing cover. The timing cover itself it all that protrudes there. Prewar engines had a bit of flange protrusion making for a pretty good step in that location.

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

An other difference, I built a 59 engine a couple years ago for a 35 pickup, it had a rear oil slinger rather than a rope seal. I used an 8BA crank and rods with the 59 aluminum seal. Never so that before. Walt

[38bill]

Originally Posted by Walt Dupont--Me.

An other difference, I built a 59 engine a couple years ago for a 35 pickup, it had a rear oil slinger rather than a rope seal. I used an 8BA crank and rods with the 59 aluminum seal. Never so that before. Walt

My 59AB had a oil slinger too. Found that out when I pulled it out of the pickup and it poured oil out the back end. At the time it seemed it would be easier to drain the oil with the engine on the lift, who knew. We just figured it had a previous Frankenstein type rebuild because of all the miss matched parts we found.

[GB SISSON]

Just went down to the shop and looked at the timing cover area. There is no way a pencil could sit there if the timing cover wasn't on. It just slopes down to nothing. The bell housing has a '59' cast on top. Don't recall what the cyl heads were, but it's 3 1/16 for sure... .060 over. Has a tag from rebuilder ford authorized which reflects the specs of the engine. Not sure if that helps.....

[Bored&Stroked]

I've not seen any blocks with just 59 on the bell housing that passed the pencil test - only the early blocks (pre-war). I'm not saying they don't exist - just never seen one.

Usually when a see a block with just the 59 on the bell, my hunch is that it will be a 3 1/16 bore block (replacement) - just the way I've seen most of them over the years.

[scooder]

Gonna have to check the 59 block I have stashed, my reply about the pencil test was from memory, so could be bolox. It is a mish mash of pre and post war casting box's.
I'll check and report back.
Martin.

[37 Coupe]

The pencil test is to exclude the 59 block not to confirm it.The pencil test works on the first generation 24 stud blocks,late '38,39 and 40 41.

[RobR'35]

How many generations are there for 24 stud block?

[37 Coupe]

I would say four and this is based on a Jay Temple article in the Jan/Feb 1992 V8 Times. The late '38-40 with the 4 freeze plugs/sand cast plug holes in oil pan rail. 3 1/16 inch bore for Ford 3 3/16 for MercuryNext the 41/42 no freeze plugs and has raised deck where intake bolts.The 46-1948 59 block and then the 49-53 blocks. So that is where I come up with the 4 basics.

[Bruce Lancaster]

There is one more, an oddity that has gotten scarce. The first 24 stud used in 1938 had the 81A-A block, quite different from the 81A-B block used in '39 and beyond. This one used the short 68 crank, same as used in '36 LB and 37-8 21 studs, and of course had main saddles to match the 68 type mains. The long crank -B block went into production in very late 1938, and the book (V8 club restoration manual) says that it is unlikely that any went into 1938 cars. To repeat, this is the production '38 24 stud, not the 21 stud also used in '38 and distinct from the '39 24 stud.

[papanomad]

Originally Posted by 37 Coupe

I would say four and this is based on a Jay Temple article in the Jan/Feb 1992 V8 Times. The late '38-40 with the 4 freeze plugs/sand cast plug holes in oil pan rail. 3 1/16 inch bore for Ford 3 3/16 for MercuryNext the 41/42 no freeze plugs and has raised deck where intake bolts.The 46-1948 59 block and then the 49-53 blocks. So that is where I come up with the 4 basics.

seems like the 59 block has 2 varieties 3 1/16 bore and 3 3/16 bore. are there and differences other than bore sizes?

[scooder]

Right guys,
I said I'd look at the 59 (only, no letter) block in my stash.
Its a 3 1/16 bore (221 ci) engine.

Has large 59 cast on the bell.

It does indeed pass the pencil test, glad my memory worked this time.

The deck face, it has one triangle top water hole and the two round lower holes, as per a regular 59A, the valve to bore measures like a 59A up, so approx 1.25" further away than the pre war stuff.
The cylinder walls, I don't have a 59A or later block to compare, but much thinner walls than my 99A's. Probably about same as the 221 pre tin can stuff. Don't think it'd comfortably go much over 3 3/16.

So the front of my 59 block is same as pre war stuff, the valve angle and deck face is post war, the cylinder wall thickness looks to be pre war. Pan rail is post war. Has a slinger type crank rather than rope seal.
Like I said it was a mix of stuff.
From this thread it proves even with this limited number produced small bore 59 engines, there's more than one casting style!
Martin.

[rotorwrench]

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Thanks for posting that. This is good information. There are other things that may be possible on these 41A blocks too (big maybe). Most information states that they started production sometime in late 1944 and this always made me wonder if the first ones had the 59 on the bell or not or used the older box & cores. The 59 series (239) production was allowed to start in what would be considered mid year production in 1945. The War Department had eased restrictions with the impending outcome of the war so that the auto manufacturers could get back in to their business and war contracts were being discontinued as surpluses mounted. The 221 blocks continued in production for quite some time after the war as replacement parts.

[slowforty]

As far as getting heads off I had a friend who made some Heavy Duty hooks that screwed into the spark plug holes. I used two and used a heavy slide hammer (2 lb} on the heads . They came off after a while. Works A Lot better than any other method that i used before. And only had to Curse half as much.

[scooder]

The one I have here was from the "matt green" fellows. As in war issue stuff, not sure what it was fitted in, but the flywheel wasn't drilled for a clutch, just had three 3/4" ish holes not far from center.
Martin.

[Mart]

Mart, I've seen flywheels like that. One keeps coming up on ebay. I wonder if they are marine?? Something like that? Or welder, generator, etc. Some non automotive application.

Mart.

[flatford8]

I have one as a stationary engine that I was told powered a water pump. This has a coupler is in the center bolted to the crankshaft but is drilled for a clutch.... Mark