New Rings Without Honing the Cylinders

[Tom Wesenberg]

Has anyone installed new rings without honing the cylinders on any engine big or small?

I saw a new set of V8 rings worn out in one week because the guy didn't properly clean the honing grit from the engine. He returned them to the store, which then sent them to the factory for analysis. The report came back that the engine wasn't properly cleaned after honing.

I've seen where ring manufacturers have said you can rering without honing the cylinders. I've never done it, but was just wondering if anyone has, and what your experience was doing it this way?

[George Miller]

I have always used a deglazer for new rings on a old bore. Have never tried rings with out deglazing the bore.

[V4F]

im with george !

[Dave in MN]

Tom...
Same as George and V4F.

I typically use a flex hone ("dingle berry" as I've heard it called). Thorough cleaning after process...the same as a freshly bored and rigid honed cylinder.

I have one if you need to borrow it...let me know. The same hone works in all of the available Model A bore sizing.
Dave

[d.j. moordigian]

Tom,

I wouldn't do it.

At the least,..I would "dingle ball" the holes, then clean them
up real good. Ask Rusty Nelson,... I taught him how too clean
the engine before assembling.

You can hear the difference, from no honing, dingle ball honing
and a real honing job when you turn the crank over with the
pistons in the engine.

Dudley

[Tom Wesenberg]

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OK, I have both the rigid and flex hones and have always used them with new rings, but yesterday I installed a new piston and rings in my neighbor's old 16 H.P. Briggs engine on an old riding mower. He didn't want to do a complete engine tear down and cleanup, so I just installed the new piston and rings. The cylinder didn't have much wear, but his old rings wear very worn.

I had one PM from someone that tried this twice and reported his rings didn't seat until he honed the engine. I'll have to wait for the grass to grow and report back how the new rings seat in.

[Wick]

I did a mini bike motor back as a kid 3hp. Just stuck new rings in it, I dident know about honing. Then stuck 5hp rings in it (ground to fit) That lasted a week.
Started reading Hot Rod....borrowed a hone and went at it until I got a 0.10 piston in it and lapped the valves. We made cardboard head gaskets back then too! @1971

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Wick

I did a mini bike motor back as a kid 3hp. Just stuck new rings in it, I dident know about honing. Then stuck 5hp rings in it (ground to fit) That lasted a week.
Started reading Hot Rod....borrowed a hone and went at it until I got a 0.10 piston in it and lapped the valves. We made cardboard head gaskets back then too! @1971

LOL, when I was in 4th or 5th grade my first gas engine was a kick start Briggs washing machine engine. I tried to make a head gasket out of a Cheerios box. It lasted about 5 seconds. I then rode my bike to Walworth, N.Y. to a small engine shop and bought a real gasket. I can still see the old guys at that shop sitting around telling stories. It was like a scene from Hooterville.

That's one thing I really liked about the eastern states, the small towns and old buildings. There's not much neat old stuff like that around Minnesota that I have found.

[Dave in MN]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

LOL, when I was in 4th or 5th grade my first gas engine was a kick start Briggs washing machine engine. I tried to make a head gasket out of a Cheerios box. It lasted about 5 seconds. I then rode my bike to Walworth, N.Y. to a small engine shop and bought a real gasket. I can still see the old guys at that shop sitting around telling stories. It was like a scene from Hooterville.

That's one thing I really liked about the eastern states, the small towns and old buildings. There's not much neat old stuff like that around Minnesota that I have found.

Great story Tom..thanks for sharing!

[PC/SR]

My brother and I did it to his IH Scout years ago and it ran fine. I have heard you can use steel but not chromed rings without honing.

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

LOL, when I was in 4th or 5th grade my first gas engine was a kick start Briggs washing machine engine..

That was mine too! Not sure if it was a Briggs, but it was off a Maytag Washing Machine, 2 opposed cylinders, kick start. I had it mounted on a "go-cart" that I drove all around the little town of 300 in SW New Mexico.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by CarlG

That was mine too! Not sure if it was a Briggs, but it was off a Maytag Washing Machine, 2 opposed cylinders, kick start. I had it mounted on a "go-cart" that I drove all around the little town of 300 in SW New Mexico.

That is funny because my first engine I got running as a young boy was a wash machine engine, that some one gave me. Do not know what kind it was.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Tom,
While working for Chrysler-Plymouth in the "60's, we had to re-ring many 277 V-8's because of not enough side clearance in the ring grooves, which had to be re-cut.
Chrysler advised us NOT to hone the BORES & put the pistons & rings in, BONE DRY!! NEVER remember a problem with rings NOT seating in. I don't remember if the rings were chrome, or not.-----Bill W.

[stouchton]

My GMC motor just got reassembled that way at about 60K miles.

Had the AFM motor oil consumption issue, and final fix involved new rings going into the block without the walls being touched.

Mechanic doing it did break the glaze with a hone, but made sure I did not tell his boss cause GM would not pay to have the block touched.

Got another 15K on it now, and it seems ok........

[amodel25]

In high school auto mechanics class in the 60's we had a Perfect Circle rep come talk to us about piston rings. He said that after honing, the bores need to be scrubbed with Tide Laundry Detergent and water, rinsed with clear water, and oiled immediately. I've been doing this for years.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Has anyone installed new rings without honing the cylinders on any engine big or small?

I saw a new set of V8 rings worn out in one week because the guy didn't properly clean the honing grit from the engine. He returned them to the store, which then sent them to the factory for analysis. The report came back that the engine wasn't properly cleaned after honing.

I've seen where ring manufacturers have said you can rering without honing the cylinders. I've never done it, but was just wondering if anyone has, and what your experience was doing it this way?

Hey Tom,
I just put together a V12..without honing ! Not running yet , but fingers crossed. Machinist/engine builder said...'even ball hone' leavings will make you/engine unhappy that you did that way (pistons/rings in)! So , I didn't, we'll see !
First engine I ever got/attempted to make work was ...a 'whizzer' bicycle single cyl , belt driven affair....in a box all apart ! Wow, luckily it was all there too. Used sand paper to expertly hone walls..cause he said do it. Boy , it did smoke,but was it ever fun when it actually worked!

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by CarlG

That was mine too! Not sure if it was a Briggs, but it was off a Maytag Washing Machine, 2 opposed cylinders, kick start. I had it mounted on a "go-cart" that I drove all around the little town of 300 in SW New Mexico.

You had a 2 cylinder 2 stroke Maytag engine. When I was in 10th grade my neighbor had the same thing on his go kart. They hum along real nice and smooth. I have a one cylinder Maytage that I've been soaking with ATF and acetone, but it's still stuck. I think I will put a grease zerk in an old spark plug and see if that will break it loose.

Speaking of breaking in new rings, when I was in 11th grade my neighbor had a 58 Chevy with a 348. He had wedges that he screwed to the tops of the pistons to raise the compression ratio. He bought them from JC Whitney. One day I saw the engine with the hood off and the heads off and the cylinders getting rusty. He said that the rust will help break in the new rings.
I never did hear the car run and have no idea what became of it.
I'm pretty sure that guy never became a mechanic.

[700rpm]

When I was 16 I got new rings (.060 over) and new valves for my Model A from my dad for Christmas in 1961. I removed the old rings and valves and put the new in and took up on the bearings by feel, not knowing about plastigage, in an unheated Oregon January garage with a dirt floor. I didn't know anything about anything back then, didn't know about staggering ring gaps or honing cylinders, and I had non-adjustable lifters. I ground the valve seats with some compound my dad had, valves straight out of the box, didn't adjust the tappet clearance. Didn't know I was supposed to. I put it all back together, and it fired right up and ran fine. I drove it like that for 19 years before I had a professional rebuilder redo it. But I never thought the professional rebuild ran as well as my old shade tree winter garage job.

[tbirdtbird]

new rings without honing seems akin to walking on black ice with sneakers

[Ted Duke]

Originally Posted by 700rpm

When I was 16 I got new rings (.060 over) and new valves for my Model A from my dad for Christmas in 1961. I removed the old rings and valves and put the new in and took up on the bearings by feel, not knowing about plastigage, in an unheated Oregon January garage with a dirt floor. I didn't know anything about anything back then, didn't know about staggering ring gaps or honing cylinders, and I had non-adjustable lifters. I ground the valve seats with some compound my dad had, valves straight out of the box, didn't adjust the tappet clearance. Didn't know I was supposed to. I put it all back together, and it fired right up and ran fine. I drove it like that for 19 years before I had a professional rebuilder redo it. But I never thought the professional rebuild ran as well as my old shade tree winter garage job.

Ray,

Dumb luck and innocence protected many of us. LOL I knew many guys who did that in the fifties.

The first lawnmower I "overhauled", new rings and head gasket, no anything else worked for a neighbor for years. After that I started doing them right. I used to pick them up on the way to work in the spring time when they were with the trash. I did three or four and sold them for $25.00 and then my young teenager started doing it. I've never tried the rings and gaskets only on an auto engine.

Ted