Burtz engine

[Lawrie]

My first big drive today in my 28ccpu.with the new Burtz engine and flywheel, 350 stipe cam .6.2 head 97 carb(from my old engine).
only about 180 miles, but some big long hills on the way to and from.
I,m really impressed with how smooth the engine is, how well it goes and oil pressure 35 running and 19=20 at hot idle after a 1 mile long pull up one hill at full throttle,
this was on a 32C day, water temp 85-90c at the top of the long hill ,other wise sat on 75C.
In a short word, I'm am most impressed and thank those who took the time and effort to get these engines to fruition.
Lawrie

[Dodge]

Great to hear, can't wait to get one to play with.

[Synchro909]

Lawrie, When will one be going into one of those drag cars?

[Lawrie]

Arnold, they are nearly all sold, I only have 2 left, but have some more coming.
its as smooth as and will happily sit on 55 or 60 mph ,no OD in the pickup, so 50-52 is as nice as .
all going well here, just been away in the 33 for a 1700 trip and will go out to Quilpie in the 33 and c/van in the next few weeks for a couple of weeks
Lawrie

[The Austrian]

I also looked into buying one of these engines but currently it is above my budget. I really like the idea to have a stock looking engine that hides its upgrades inside where no one can see them.
I guess I just have to keep saving up my money so one day I can affort one of these gems.

[Russ/40]

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Dont assume they will always be available. Our relationship with China is heating up. Dont wait too long!

[Aretino]

China

[Jim Brierley]

What oil pump are you running?

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by Russ/40

Dont assume they will always be available. Our relationship with China is heating up. Dont wait too long!

Heating up quite rapidly - and we're in he middle of it. Has there been anything said publicly over there about us buying nuclear submarines from the US and Britain under the new AUKUS arrangement?
I wouldn't want to be living in Taiwan!

[mhsprecher]

"Has there been anything said publicly over there about us buying nuclear submarines from the US and Britain under the new AUKUS arrangement?"

It's been all over the news. The French were very upset.

China is very dependent upon exports. I suspect they will preserve those export markets as their internal demand can't keep their economy going. Someday they will have enough internal demand that they won't need to export as much, but that is not true today.

Shipping costs have increased exponentially, so, for the time being, that will likely affect the cost of those blocks, too.

[McMimmcs]

Why could these blocks not have been made in the USA? It’s often been expressed that many Fordbarners want nothing to do with Chinese made parts.

[johnneilson]

Originally Posted by McMimmcs

Why could these blocks not have been made in the USA? It’s often been expressed that many Fordbarners want nothing to do with Chinese made parts.

Without dragging this thru the mud, Terry made several attempts at having the block produced here in the states. It did not go as well as expected and the project sidelined for a while.

Not sure exactly how, but Terry was able to make a connection to a Engine manufacturing facility in China. As they say, all the rest is history.

I see this as a huge win, this facility does this 5 or 6 days a week, or more.
I read somewhere the Engineers and designers were questioning building outdated technology. Happy to see Terry and John successful.

You and I may not like China, but we had better get one while we can.

John

[Synchro909]

IMO, Terry having to go to China to have these blocks cast shows how much we have been asleep while these (and other) skills have been lost. It's the same here and I'm sure, through out the world. What hope do we have if China gets nasty?

[denniskliesen]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

What hope do we have if China gets nasty?

They already are nasty from what I’ve read lately.

[goodcar]

Originally Posted by McMimmcs

Why could these blocks not have been made in the USA? It’s often been expressed that many Fordbarners want nothing to do with Chinese made parts.

If my current engine fails I would probably go with Terry's engine. My biggest concern would be to find a quality builder to put it together at a fair price and then not have to keep puling and reinstalling to get all the bugs out.

We probably all feel the same about Chinese products but what other choices do we have when it comes to almost everything, our clothing, medicines, household items, tools and so many other things. Get rid of everything from China and you'll be living naked in an empty house.

[Jim Brierley]

Originally Posted by McMimmcs View Post
Why could these blocks not have been made in the USA? It’s often been expressed that many Fordbarners want nothing to do with Chinese made parts.

Terry had given up on casting blocks over here because several tries ended in failure. He found a guy, or the guy found him, that had been having WWII Jeep blocks, with excellent results. This guy had all the contacts necessary, so Terry investigated and the rest is history. He did give it a good try.

[JKY]

Originally Posted by McMimmcs

Why could these blocks not have been made in the USA? It’s often been expressed that many Fordbarners want nothing to do with Chinese made parts.

That's a bit broadly stated. Building cast blocks is not that difficult, it's old and established technology. The key is to set the correct specification and hold the manufacturer to a high level of quality control. It doesn't take many rejected parts to get the manufacturer's attention. He does not want rework or rejected parts coming back to him. China can build quality blocks, the key is the quality control and inspection required by the vendor that ordered them.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by JKY

That's a bit broadly stated. Building cast blocks is not that difficult, it's old and established technology. The key is to set the correct specification and hold the manufacturer to a high level of quality control. It doesn't take many rejected parts to get the manufacturer's attention. He does not want rework or rejected parts coming back to him. China can build quality blocks, the key is the quality control and inspection required by the vendor that ordered them.

I've been maintaining that for years. The fact that we get rubbish from them comes down to poor quality control on the part of our buyers, most of whom are too money hungry.
As I have said, how is it cheaper to buy an item only for it to not work. There is NO Return on Investment. A more expensive but quality item will last a long time so there is a ROI. I know which I would prefer.

[Jeff/Illinois]

Originally Posted by denniskliesen

They already are nasty from what I’ve read lately.

Quite. And what they are planning is not good.

[updraught]

Since they stopped buying our coal the price has shot up and we are doing quite well out of it.
It looks like an energy crunch is comming, just as their winter hits. Their govt has said to spend whatever it takes to keep their people warm. Interesting to see what happens.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by updraught

Since they stopped buying our coal the price has shot up and we are doing quite well out of it.
It looks like an energy crunch is comming, just as their winter hits. Their govt has said to spend whatever it takes to keep their people warm. Interesting to see what happens.

With some of their big property developers on the brink, the economy slowing and the unemployment rate likely to rise, the future of the CCP is not guaranteed IMO. Who knows what such a dictatorial and authoritarian Government would do to stay in power.
BTW, China's manufacturing is handicapped at the moment by a shortage of power. The same is happening in India. Between the two, that one heck of a lot of people.

[Jeff/Illinois]

Hopefully they can fill Mr. Burtz' engine orders. Not looking very good at this point for that to happen.

[Jordan]

What did you do regarding the rear main seal? I know others have left spring out, left spring in, done the double seal with oil in between.... What did you do & how did it work for you? Any leaks, even if minor?

[old ugly]

Originally Posted by McMimmcs

Why could these blocks not have been made in the USA? It’s often been expressed that many Fordbarners want nothing to do with Chinese made parts.

not enough money in it.

you get what you pay for.

if you want china to build really nice stuff they will make it.

if you want some real cheap stuff made they will make that. (this is what most of us see)

the 1st problem is the supplier wants his product manufactured for as cheap as he can get so he can make a good inventory turn over and profit margin. then the product is passed onto us. and who knows what labelling and quality standards it has passed through, if any.

the second issue, we as consumers (majority) are cheep/thrifty and don't want to pay for the quality stuff. especially after it has gone through the supplier who makes his profit.

bottom line is China can make nice products if they are asked to.

i don't think china is as bad as we make out. they have given us a competitive market that has kept other product parts more affordable. this actually makes our hobby affordable. and parts are available even if we have to rework them for fit and function.

now it isn't all Chinese products that have issues. you old guys will remember stuff that was made in Argentina same bad products.
and lets go back even further.
you older guys will remember Made in Japan. we had some real crappy products made in Japan.

my $.02

ou

[johnneilson]

Originally Posted by old ugly

not enough money in it.

you get what you pay for.

if you want china to build really nice stuff they will make it.

if you want some real cheap stuff made they will make that. (this is what most of us see)

the 1st problem is the supplier wants his product manufactured for as cheap as he can get so he can make a good inventory turn over and profit margin. then the product is passed onto us. and who knows what labelling and quality standards it has passed through, if any.

the second issue, we as consumers (majority) are cheep/thrifty and don't want to pay for the quality stuff. especially after it has gone through the supplier who makes his profit.

bottom line is China can make nice products if they are asked to.

i don't think china is as bad as we make out. they have given us a competitive market that has kept other product parts more affordable. this actually makes our hobby affordable. and parts are available even if we have to rework them for fit and function.

now it isn't all Chinese products that have issues. you old guys will remember stuff that was made in Argentina same bad products.
and lets go back even further.
you older guys will remember Made in Japan. we had some real crappy products made in Japan.

my $.02

ou

Well said, I am not that articulate.
I can tell you from the racing side, high quality parts cost plenty.
To have a motor that will live above 6k revs, I don't mean hill climb, I mean hold at that speed for a minute or two or 3. It cost double to 3 times the Burtz assembly.

Terry did everything possible to have a Made in USA product, it just didn't come to fruition.

What I do know, dropping Industrial arts out of the school systems did not do this country any good. I have a 10th grader on the Robotics team in school and teaching the Mentors and Teacher manufacturing and machining.

I can only hope that Terry is successful in this venture for many years to come.

John

[hardtimes]

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Originally Posted by McMimmcs

Why could these blocks not have been made in the USA? It’s often been expressed that many Fordbarners want nothing to do with Chinese made parts.

You do know that this (USA) is still a free Country, as to your opinion and buying choices ?
DO NOT BUY from some one and/ or some place that you do not trust…eh !!
I will repeat AGAIN. If you / anyone here has the time to make disparaging remarks and thoughts regarding this Burts engine and how it came to fruition. Go back thru the YEARS of threads , on this subject… if you truly care to know truth of matter.
This man, Terry Burtz, has the tenacity and determination of a pit bull. He has skills and knowledge to accomplish this complicated job.
What you do not know of him , is that he spent decades pursuing his goal.
For any one to question him, regarding his going to China… or anywhere else ,to
accomplish his dream/goals… is to reveal that you know NOTHING of this man and of his journey !!
There are a few here who all but infer that he is anti American. This is as far from truth as possible… to put it in a gentle way.
Just think… no BS, GOOD or bad would be experienced had Burtz be any less of a man than he is ! He is a RARE specimen , and WE are lucky model Aers to have him as friend. THANKS TERRY from most all of us !

[JOHNCL]

I totally agree with Hard Times.

[motordr]

Very well said hardtimes, the Burtz Model A engine is a game changer. Thank you Terry Burtz!

[Russ/40]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

You do know that this (USA) is still a free Country, as to your opinion and buying choices ?
DO NOT BUY from some one and/ or some place that you do not trust…eh !!
I will repeat AGAIN. If you / anyone here has the time to make disparaging remarks and thoughts regarding this Burts engine and how it came to fruition. Go back thru the YEARS of threads , on this subject… if you truly care to know truth of matter.
This man, Terry Burtz, has the tenacity and determination of a pit bull. He has skills and knowledge to accomplish this complicated job.
What you do not know of him , is that he spent decades pursuing his goal.
For any one to question him, regarding his going to China… or anywhere else ,to
accomplish his dream/goals… is to reveal that you know NOTHING of this man and of his journey !!
There are a few here who all but infer that he is anti American. This is as far from truth as possible… to put it in a gentle way.
Just think… no BS, GOOD or bad would be experienced had Burtz be any less of a man than he is ! He is a RARE specimen , and WE are lucky model Aers to have him as friend. THANKS TERRY from most all of us !

So true, as to Terry's devotion to the project. His history on this project is agonizing tenacity for many many years. He did what few do, and that is to hold the project to the highest standard, both technically and ethically. His support post sale is impeccable.

[Lawrie]

also , dont make cheap remarks, UNTIL you have seen his engine, AND driven an A with one of his engines
As some one said, the holy grail of A engines
Lawrie

[Lawrie]

Sorry , double post

[kawagumby]

The guy asks a question and is attacked......

[Terry Burtz, Calif]

Thanks, everyone for the compliments and comments.

The inferior parts for Model A Fords that we are familiar with are because the purchaser in the USA likely sent a worn-out or poor-quality aftermarket part to China to have it reverse engineered, and then awarded a contract to the lowest bidder.

Ford referred to these poor-quality parts as “GYP” parts.

During the depression, people had little money and GYP parts kept the car running at much less cost than genuine Ford parts.

For every new engine part, we sent a complete engineering package of the new design based on original Ford drawings and documented in SolidWorks to China.

In China, we are using factories that specialize in making engine parts for modern engines.

To complement the new internal design, we are taking advantage of 90 years of progress made in materials, heat treating, and quality assurance.

If anyone knows of a factory in the USA that can produce the “New Engine Kit” to the same quality and price, please send an email using your made in the USA phone or computer. I’m kidding, you can use your phone or computer that was made in China.

[old ugly]

Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif

Thanks, everyone for the compliments and comments.

The inferior parts for Model A Fords that we are familiar with are because the purchaser in the USA likely sent a worn-out or poor-quality aftermarket part to China to have it reverse engineered, and then awarded a contract to the lowest bidder.

Ford referred to these poor-quality parts as “GYP” parts.

During the depression, people had little money and GYP parts kept the car running at much less cost than genuine Ford parts.

For every new engine part, we sent a complete engineering package of the new design based on original Ford drawings and documented in SolidWorks to China.

In China, we are using factories that specialize in making engine parts for modern engines.

To complement the new internal design, we are taking advantage of 90 years of progress made in materials, heat treating, and quality assurance.

I anyone knows of a factory in the USA that can produce the “New Engine Kit” to the same quality and price, please send an email using your made in the USA phone or computer. I’m kidding, you can use your phone or computer that was made in China.

i give to you two thumbs up!

ou

[Hotrodfil]

Originally Posted by Terry Burtz, Calif

I’m kidding, you can use your phone or computer that was made in China.

Brilliant.

[daveymc29]

Terry,

You will always be my hero of the Model A World.

The Ace Mechanic, Dave Mc Arthur

[SHEC]

How true
How true.....✔️🇺🇸

[MrBruce]

Terry is spot on, met him at Oshkosh. He is completely correct about the vendors not quality checking the parts we get when it comes to Model A parts. I spent over 26 years with Clevite Engine parts and every part WE manufactured and sent to the warehouse for packaging and sale, went though our inspection department (I say again, from our own plants it was inspected by our warehouse)! Case in point that's disgusting, I just bought a complete wiring harness ($100.00) for my 31 Model A pickup, there was a note that the black wafer that has the bullet divots in it was made to thick and that I was suppose to take a dremel and grind it down. This is exactly our problem, they should have been sent back (it can easily be unhooked) and new parts sent out to correct the problem! Another vendor has stopped selling AMP gauges as the quality was so poor and they felt it just wasn't fair to continue selling a product that was probably coming back? When Rich Fallucca produced the insert bearings for Model A's he took flack over that. What? All engines after the mid 30's had inserts, great for the Model A's and for the Hobby? We've lost a lot of our manufacturing to China, it's a shame and hopefully we have learned and can start getting it back. I commend Terry for his undying drive to get this done. Everyone should be doing a "happy dance" and commending TERRY -- just my thoughts sorry it's so long

[Jeff/Illinois]

A new casting of a 59AB Ford flathead block would sell like hotcakes too

There are thousands of bad Ford Flatheads that are suffering cracked blocks.

Of course that is a whole different animal in the foundry world. Ford did what they all said couldn't be done, with the Flathead V-8.

[rfitzpatrick]

[Q -- just my thoughts sorry it's so long[/QUOTE]


Actually I read every word -- twice
Thanks