The Ford Barn

Danny Boy · 08-13-2021, 01:52 PM

I found the local model A club in Ottawa.
Ok I timed it right this time, did it while on the phone with club organizer.
He sent some stuff about timing and I'm looking at what you guys are saying and my timing was off.
It's good now
Thanks for that guys.

Now if I try to start it the right way I get nothing and the carburetor is spraying fuel in perfect rhythm with the engine crank.
Except it's spraying out the hole on the bottom of the carburetor, if I remove the air filter it sprays out of the opening of the choke plate.
It looks like the spray I should get from the carburetor but it's going the wrong way.

If I give her a little more throttle or some choke when I'm trying to start it I get a backfire in the carburator
I can see the smoke from the backfire come out the carbs vent hole or through the hole at the bottom.
Wow is that ever scary when it backfires in the carburator so I'm a little reluctant of cranking for a long time.

Rob Doe · 08-13-2021, 02:52 PM

Danny, I did a 'Search this Forum' request for "Distributor rotor". About the 5th thread down a thread called "Distributor rotor" has two pictures of what you should see if your timed correctly. One is by LEM the thread creator, and the other is by Tom Wesenberg down in the thread. Both are correct.

Bob C · 08-13-2021, 03:02 PM

As mentioned before sounds like you have an intake valve sticking open.

Rob Doe · 08-13-2021, 03:31 PM

Time to do a compression test with a gauge. The screw threads on the A's plugs are 7/8-18. My automotive compression tester measures 14MM and 18MM only. I had to order an adapter that screws into the plug hole from Snyder's or Bratton's to use it. There is a kind of tester with a conical shaped rubber end that just pushes into the plug hole. My friend brought me one after I had already gone the other direction.

As stated by Bob C above, I don't see how air could push/force fuel from the intake of the carb unless at least one intake valve is hung open.

There is an old timers trick I have read, posted by a senior member on another forum. Years ago they poured a cup of kerosene into each cylinder and left it for a couple days. Seems that kerosene is good at freeing sticky valves. I'll see if I can find that.

Tom, above suggested removing the valve cover just under the manifolds and watching the valves as you use the starter. Plugs out. Fuel off. etc.

As to pushing the car in 3rd gear to set the timing pin accurately, I have found that I can do it alone by pushing or pulling on the right front tire.

jg61hawk · 08-13-2021, 04:02 PM

Can you tow it around the block a few times in gear...leave the gas / key off don't even try to start it....let the valves work for awhile. You could remove the side valve cover and mist Mystery Oil in there too... try the easy stuff before you decide to start pulling the head and things. Blowing back out the rear of the carb is pretty much a stuck open valve or I guess a head gasket could do that???

nkaminar · 08-13-2021, 04:52 PM

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If the carburetor is spraying gasoline with every stroke of the engine then there is too much gasoline. Don't turn the gas on at the bottom of the tank and only choke for 1/2 revolution. Leave the air cleaner off. Backfiring at the carburetor is another sign that the engine is flooded. Or, as others have indicated, if you have a leaky intake valve that can cause a backfire in the carburetor. Or, as others have indicted, if the spark is on the wrong plug that can cause a backfire.

katy · 08-14-2021, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny Boy

My plan is to buy a wrench to cut and weld back in appropriate shape so I can check the timing to make sure it's perfect and also take a good look inside the piston chambers to see what's moving and check if I've got a stuck valve somewhere.

You can use a socket and an extension through the hand crank hole.

Rob Doe · 08-15-2021, 01:52 PM

[QUOTE=Rob Doe;2045371 Is the truck wired 6v positive ground? If so, a 12v coil is not a good idea, unless the primary circuit is 3 ohm or there is an internal or external (resistor???) to make it operate at ~ 3 ohm? A picture of the coil hookups would help. If the truck is wired as a Model AA then the red wire needs to be on the + connection and the wire should run to the keyed switch. The black wire should be on the - side and come from the yellow/black stripe wire in the terminal box. [/QUOTE]

Danny, I had an error in my previous comment. the primary should be 3 ohm not 4. Sorry for that, I already edited it.

jg61hawk · 08-15-2021, 04:49 PM

So did anything work?

katy · 08-16-2021, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Doe

Danny, I had an error in my previous comment. the primary should be 3 ohm not 4. Sorry for that, I already edited it.

~3 ohm primary is a 12 volt coil, 6 volt coil should have ~1.5 ohm primary

Danny Boy · 08-20-2021, 06:52 AM

Hi, sorry I didn't reply earlier, busy weekend and then on Monday my van starter just died, so now I have 2 vehicles to fix.

Here's s the pictures I promised for timing and wiring.

In the distributor picture my timing pin is set and piston 1 is top dead center and spark lever is in fully retarded position.
Points are closing right there.

Can anyone tell me if that is correct please?

I have a cut red wire inside that wiring junction box.
I haven't opened the panel inside the cabin but I think the amp meter isn't wired in.

Danny Boy · 08-20-2021, 07:12 AM

While I was moving/pushing the truck to set my timing pin I noticed a valve in piston #1 that looked like it was open all the time.

Inside the piston chamber the pistons are toward the driver side and the valves are towards the passenger side.
While standing at the passenger side of the engine the valve on the left is the one that looks always open. Valve is toward back of the vehicle, is that exhaust?

I got a small camera from a friend and I plan on flashing a light inside each chamber with the camera filming while pushing the truck in third gear.

Bob C · 08-20-2021, 09:57 AM

When the timing pin drops in at TDC the points should just be opening not closing.
If I understand correctly that would be #1 intake valve staying open.

katy · 08-20-2021, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob C

When the timing pin drops in at TDC the points should just be opening not closing.
If I understand correctly that would be #1 intake valve staying open.

Ditto

W/the pin in the dimple the points should JUST be starting to open.

The valves are, from front to rear E,I, I,E, E,I, I,E.

jg61hawk · 08-20-2021, 12:10 PM

Is the +positive side of that coil on the passenger side of the car...Very hard to see but it looks like it is not.

Danny Boy · 08-20-2021, 02:47 PM

So as pictured (distributor rotor right hand edge on the #1 piston pin)
The points should be closed and just about to open?
With spark retarder all the way up.

Positive is towards the drivers side, on the right.
Negative is toward the passenger, on the left.

jg61hawk · 08-20-2021, 03:52 PM

Positive is towards the drivers side, on the right.
Negative is toward the passenger, on the left.

That coil is the opposite of Model A coils as the +Positive terminal on the Model A coil mounted wire down is on the passenger side. I have no idea how this may be affecting you but it could be a significant problem...Unless of course whoever wired it was aware of the switch...I don't mean to imply the coil matters but how it is wired does. Others smarter than me will need to address this...Somewhere on this forum are several good easy wiring diagrams...I searched quick but didn't find one I wanted....

Bob C · 08-20-2021, 04:07 PM

This is what the rotor should look like as the points just start to open.

Danny Boy · 08-20-2021, 06:13 PM

Thanks for the pic, I just checked and that's exactly what I've got.

I replaced the coil with that one while troubleshooting, the other one was wired the same way.
If I remember correctly it's a oil filled one and it's possible it got switched around at some point by the garage who worked on the starter.

Oh and can someone confirm spark gap I should have? I have some new autolite 3076 in there. But speaking with Model A group here and I was told it's the right spark plug but my gap is wrong gap. I have a gap of 0.024~0.025 put I was told it should be 0.035. What do you guys think?
I know plugs that where in there before where champion x14 and I was told it should of been x16.

nkaminar · 08-20-2021, 07:45 PM

Quote: "In the distributor picture my timing pin is set and piston 1 is top dead center and spark lever is in fully retarded position.
Points are closing right there."

There is a small amount of play in the rotor. It moves counter clockwise. If you move the rotor clockwise with your fingers to take up the play the points should be closed. If you then move the rotor counter clockwise with your fingers the play in the distributor will allow the points to open slightly.

A compression test with a gauge will tell you if you have a stuck valve or other mechanical problem.

The plug gaps should be 0.035 inch.

There is a tool available to check coil polarity, see https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/P.../model-a/tools However you can use a volt meter and read the polarity on the coil. It should have a + and a - or may have dist and batt or something like that. Modern coils assume a negative ground so batt would be positive and dist would be negative. So if you have a positive ground then dist, being negative, would go to the battery and batt, being positve, would go to the distributor.

08-13-2021, 01:52 PM	#41
Danny Boy Member Join Date: Aug 2021 Posts: 40	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help I found the local model A club in Ottawa. Ok I timed it right this time, did it while on the phone with club organizer. He sent some stuff about timing and I'm looking at what you guys are saying and my timing was off. It's good now Thanks for that guys. Now if I try to start it the right way I get nothing and the carburetor is spraying fuel in perfect rhythm with the engine crank. Except it's spraying out the hole on the bottom of the carburetor, if I remove the air filter it sprays out of the opening of the choke plate. It looks like the spray I should get from the carburetor but it's going the wrong way. If I give her a little more throttle or some choke when I'm trying to start it I get a backfire in the carburator I can see the smoke from the backfire come out the carbs vent hole or through the hole at the bottom. Wow is that ever scary when it backfires in the carburator so I'm a little reluctant of cranking for a long time.

08-13-2021, 02:52 PM	#42
Rob Doe Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 490	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help Danny, I did a 'Search this Forum' request for "Distributor rotor". About the 5th thread down a thread called "Distributor rotor" has two pictures of what you should see if your timed correctly. One is by LEM the thread creator, and the other is by Tom Wesenberg down in the thread. Both are correct. __________________ "It ain't what you know for certain that gets ya in trouble. It's what ya know for certain that just ain't so!"

08-13-2021, 03:02 PM	#43
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 8,743	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help As mentioned before sounds like you have an intake valve sticking open.

08-13-2021, 03:31 PM	#44
Rob Doe Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 490	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help Time to do a compression test with a gauge. The screw threads on the A's plugs are 7/8-18. My automotive compression tester measures 14MM and 18MM only. I had to order an adapter that screws into the plug hole from Snyder's or Bratton's to use it. There is a kind of tester with a conical shaped rubber end that just pushes into the plug hole. My friend brought me one after I had already gone the other direction. As stated by Bob C above, I don't see how air could push/force fuel from the intake of the carb unless at least one intake valve is hung open. There is an old timers trick I have read, posted by a senior member on another forum. Years ago they poured a cup of kerosene into each cylinder and left it for a couple days. Seems that kerosene is good at freeing sticky valves. I'll see if I can find that. Tom, above suggested removing the valve cover just under the manifolds and watching the valves as you use the starter. Plugs out. Fuel off. etc. As to pushing the car in 3rd gear to set the timing pin accurately, I have found that I can do it alone by pushing or pulling on the right front tire. __________________ "It ain't what you know for certain that gets ya in trouble. It's what ya know for certain that just ain't so!"

08-13-2021, 04:02 PM	#45
jg61hawk Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Central New Jersey Posts: 404	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help Can you tow it around the block a few times in gear...leave the gas / key off don't even try to start it....let the valves work for awhile. You could remove the side valve cover and mist Mystery Oil in there too... try the easy stuff before you decide to start pulling the head and things. Blowing back out the rear of the carb is pretty much a stuck open valve or I guess a head gasket could do that???

08-13-2021, 04:52 PM	#46
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,899	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) If the carburetor is spraying gasoline with every stroke of the engine then there is too much gasoline. Don't turn the gas on at the bottom of the tank and only choke for 1/2 revolution. Leave the air cleaner off. Backfiring at the carburetor is another sign that the engine is flooded. Or, as others have indicated, if you have a leaky intake valve that can cause a backfire in the carburetor. Or, as others have indicted, if the spark is on the wrong plug that can cause a backfire. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past. Last edited by nkaminar; 08-14-2021 at 07:05 AM.

08-15-2021, 01:52 PM	#48
Rob Doe Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 490	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help [QUOTE=Rob Doe;2045371 Is the truck wired 6v positive ground? If so, a 12v coil is not a good idea, unless the primary circuit is 3 ohm or there is an internal or external (resistor???) to make it operate at ~ 3 ohm? A picture of the coil hookups would help. If the truck is wired as a Model AA then the red wire needs to be on the + connection and the wire should run to the keyed switch. The black wire should be on the - side and come from the yellow/black stripe wire in the terminal box. [/QUOTE] Danny, I had an error in my previous comment. the primary should be 3 ohm not 4. Sorry for that, I already edited it. __________________ "It ain't what you know for certain that gets ya in trouble. It's what ya know for certain that just ain't so!"

08-15-2021, 04:49 PM	#49
jg61hawk Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Central New Jersey Posts: 404	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help So did anything work? Last edited by jg61hawk; 08-16-2021 at 12:26 AM.

08-20-2021, 07:12 AM	#52
Danny Boy Member Join Date: Aug 2021 Posts: 40	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help While I was moving/pushing the truck to set my timing pin I noticed a valve in piston #1 that looked like it was open all the time. Inside the piston chamber the pistons are toward the driver side and the valves are towards the passenger side. While standing at the passenger side of the engine the valve on the left is the one that looks always open. Valve is toward back of the vehicle, is that exhaust? I got a small camera from a friend and I plan on flashing a light inside each chamber with the camera filming while pushing the truck in third gear. Last edited by Danny Boy; 08-20-2021 at 08:48 AM.

08-20-2021, 09:57 AM	#53
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 8,743	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help When the timing pin drops in at TDC the points should just be opening not closing. If I understand correctly that would be #1 intake valve staying open.

08-20-2021, 12:10 PM	#55
jg61hawk Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Central New Jersey Posts: 404	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help Is the +positive side of that coil on the passenger side of the car...Very hard to see but it looks like it is not.

08-20-2021, 02:47 PM	#56
Danny Boy Member Join Date: Aug 2021 Posts: 40	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help So as pictured (distributor rotor right hand edge on the #1 piston pin) The points should be closed and just about to open? With spark retarder all the way up. Positive is towards the drivers side, on the right. Negative is toward the passenger, on the left.

08-20-2021, 03:52 PM	#57
jg61hawk Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Central New Jersey Posts: 404	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help Positive is towards the drivers side, on the right. Negative is toward the passenger, on the left. That coil is the opposite of Model A coils as the +Positive terminal on the Model A coil mounted wire down is on the passenger side. I have no idea how this may be affecting you but it could be a significant problem...Unless of course whoever wired it was aware of the switch...I don't mean to imply the coil matters but how it is wired does. Others smarter than me will need to address this...Somewhere on this forum are several good easy wiring diagrams...I searched quick but didn't find one I wanted.... Last edited by jg61hawk; 08-20-2021 at 04:15 PM.

08-20-2021, 06:13 PM	#59
Danny Boy Member Join Date: Aug 2021 Posts: 40	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help Thanks for the pic, I just checked and that's exactly what I've got. I replaced the coil with that one while troubleshooting, the other one was wired the same way. If I remember correctly it's a oil filled one and it's possible it got switched around at some point by the garage who worked on the starter. Oh and can someone confirm spark gap I should have? I have some new autolite 3076 in there. But speaking with Model A group here and I was told it's the right spark plug but my gap is wrong gap. I have a gap of 0.024~0.025 put I was told it should be 0.035. What do you guys think? I know plugs that where in there before where champion x14 and I was told it should of been x16. Last edited by Danny Boy; 08-20-2021 at 06:21 PM.

08-20-2021, 07:45 PM	#60
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,899	Re: 1929 double a won't start, help Quote: "In the distributor picture my timing pin is set and piston 1 is top dead center and spark lever is in fully retarded position. Points are closing right there." There is a small amount of play in the rotor. It moves counter clockwise. If you move the rotor clockwise with your fingers to take up the play the points should be closed. If you then move the rotor counter clockwise with your fingers the play in the distributor will allow the points to open slightly. A compression test with a gauge will tell you if you have a stuck valve or other mechanical problem. The plug gaps should be 0.035 inch. There is a tool available to check coil polarity, see https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/P.../model-a/tools However you can use a volt meter and read the polarity on the coil. It should have a + and a - or may have dist and batt or something like that. Modern coils assume a negative ground so batt would be positive and dist would be negative. So if you have a positive ground then dist, being negative, would go to the battery and batt, being positve, would go to the distributor. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past. Last edited by nkaminar; 08-20-2021 at 07:52 PM.