The Ford Barn

36tudordeluxe · 08-17-2014, 05:38 PM

My timing pointer is in an awkward position as it's not located in the stock location because of after market timing gear cover. If I move it to the other side of timing cover would the advance/retard indication be the opposite of what it should be?

JSeery · 08-17-2014, 06:03 PM

The marks can be anywhere, they just have to be correct! Need to establish TDC for cylinder #1 and mark whatever you are marking and establish a pointer that is correct for the mark. There are applications that use the flywheel, the important part is the correct determination of TDC. In my option, TDC needs to be established by a method other than attempting to guess when the piston is at the top of it's stroke. You need some type of positive stop and use the split difference method to establish TDC.

36tudordeluxe · 08-17-2014, 06:55 PM

JSeery, agree with everything stated, but still wonder with pointer moved 180° if advance/ retard would be reversed now.

oldford2 · 08-17-2014, 07:20 PM

I think if you are at TDC and the rotor is at #1 in the cap. You can move the mark anywhere on the cover and crank pulley and advance/retard direction is the same. Notice I said "I think"
John

36tudordeluxe · 08-17-2014, 07:28 PM

Understand that rotating the distributor direction remains unchanged as far as advance/ retard but does it appear the same when using timing light on the other side of pulley? Light showing below TDC is advance and above retarded? Am stuck on the idea pointer has been moved 180°; guess I will get the answer to this when I actually move the pointer to other side.

40cpe · 08-17-2014, 07:33 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 36tudordeluxe

JSeery, agree with everything stated, but still wonder with pointer moved 180° if advance/ retard would be reversed now.

think about it… The advance will move in the same direction, so if it is on the other side of a circle…

Put a timing tape or measure out some marks and try it, you will learn something.

Walt Dupont--Me. · 08-17-2014, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 36tudordeluxe

My timing pointer is in an awkward position as it's not located in the stock location because of after market timing gear cover. If I move it to the other side of timing cover would the advance/retard indication be the opposite of what it should be?

You've got the right idea, with the tdc pulley mark on the dist side the mark will go down when advance, with the pointer and new pulley mark on the drivers side the mark will go up when advance, there still going in the same direction. Walt

George/Maine · 08-17-2014, 08:14 PM

If you move it 180 degs it will be under car. maybe 90 degs.
Best move dist when running at best rpms then back off some.
Good enoght.
I think you have a bad cam and did you put it in .Was it new in box.
Also with that electric fan when moveing 30 40 mph the shroud could be blocking the air flow may have to cut bottom off. I had that problem.

JSeery · 08-17-2014, 09:08 PM

I think you have your answer above, but just so it clear the location of the timing marks has noting to do with what advances or retards the timing. These are just the timing marks and everything is still turning in the same direction, your not changing anything, timing marks can be anywhere as long as they are correct. If you put a TDC mark on say the pulley then ether add additional marks for maybe 2, 4, 6, 8 degrees BTDC and you won't have to worry about it or use an adjustable timing light (even better).

Edit: Sounds like you don't have a very clear understanding as to what is going on with timing. An experiment might help. Put the engine on the current timing mark. Now take a white or silver marker and make a mark on the other side of the pulley where you might want the final marks to end up. Now ridge up some type of temporary pointer (wire or something). Start the car up and check the timing marks with a timing light and you should be able to see what is going on. You could even add a few BTDC marks to see what that looks like.

36tudordeluxe · 08-17-2014, 10:20 PM

Am probably "over thinking," have a tendency to do that.

JSeery · 08-17-2014, 10:32 PM

Trial and error is a fairly good teacher, if you stick with it!

36tudordeluxe · 08-17-2014, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walt Dupont--Me.

You've got the right idea, with the tdc pulley mark on the dist side the mark will go down when advance, with the pointer and new pulley mark on the drivers side the mark will go up when advance, there still going in the same direction. Walt

Walt, that's what I'm thinking & will verify in the next few days.

JSeery · 08-17-2014, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 36tudordeluxe

Walt, that's what I'm thinking & will verify in the next few days.

Must be semantics at work here! Fact #1: The Pulley/Damper is always going to turn in the same direction Fact #2 The BTDC marks are always going to pass the pointer before the TDC mark.

So, I have no idea what you are really getting at, it doesn't make any difference where you are on the pulley/damper these two facts are always going to be true.

Are you referring to the pulley moving up on the passenger side therefore you will see the BTDC marks moving in an upward direction as they approach the marker and on the drivers side you will see the BTDC marks moving in a downward direction before they pass the pointer? Maybe that's the confusion. That way of looking at this doesn't make any sense to me, so maybe that's what I'm not understanding in your question. The pulley is a circle and is always turning in the same direction: On the passenger side the marks would be moving up, on top they would be moving to the right (standing in front of the car looking at it), on the drivers side they would be moving down and on the bottom they would be moving to the left. Is that what we are talking about? If so, I think that might get a little confusing, to me it is much simpler to think of a circle, the marks are going around and the BTDC marks will always pass the pointer before the TDC mark, but if the other way is simpler for you I will try and keep that in mind. These semantics things can get interesting, that's for sure. But ultimately we have to all be talking about the same thing (I think!). LOL
I for one will be excited to hear the results of your testing. Maybe we're talking about a totally different subject or something, and that will clear it up. I'm sure sorry if I have completely misunderstood what you are attempting to do and I'm leading you astray.

George/Maine · 08-18-2014, 06:50 AM

There is more to this idea then TDC.
First use cylinder # 5 put a piece of tape on pulley.
If you have TDC on #1 don't move dist.
Now move to #5 with light and see it on tape when running.
That should be TDC on#5
What I like to do if no light is drive and test.
Mark all movements, move 1/4 " at time turn dist.
When you like it lock it down.
Low vacuum is do to hot rod cam .
Look at some cams and some say idle poor idle.
A good stock cam will be ok if you are going to race that's another thing.
I run a 265 stock cam and Ford original dist. with 2 97s and have no problems other then running hot.
I did have to cut the bottom off my shroud block the air flow.
This is in my 39 standard.

Walt Dupont--Me. · 08-18-2014, 07:11 AM

I think you mean #6 George, that's the companion cyl. to #1 you can hook the timing light up to 1 or 6 both pistons are at TDC and the timing mark will be in the same place.

JSeery · 08-18-2014, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George/Maine

There is more to this idea then TDC.
First use cylinder # 5 put a piece of tape on pulley.
If you have TDC on #1 don't move dist.
Now move to #5 with light and see it on tape when running.
That should be TDC on#5
What I like to do if no light is drive and test.
Mark all movements, move 1/4 " at time turn dist.
When you like it lock it down.
Low vacuum is do to hot rod cam .
Look at some cams and some say idle poor idle.
A good stock cam will be ok if you are going to race that's another thing.
I run a 265 stock cam and Ford original dist. with 2 97s and have no problems other then running hot.
I did have to cut the bottom off my shroud block the air flow.
This is in my 39 standard.

Think this might just add to the confusion, but yes, either #1 or #6 will work. The way I read Georges comment he was saying it is a requirement to use #6 if you change sides with the timing marks, and that is not true. The reason either #1 or #6 will work is because they both will occur at the same TDC. The firing-order is 1-5-4-8-6-3-7-2 and the ignition fires every 90 degrees of crankshaft rotation. So, #1 fires then 90 degrees later #5, than at 180 degrees #4, at 270 degrees #8 and then we are back to 360/0 degrees and #6 fires. All of the cylinders have a TDC and are paired, 1&6, 5&3, 4&7, 8&2 and any of them could be used to set the timing. Convention has always been to use the #1 cylinder (front right on a ford) but its paired cylinder (#6) will also work as far as a timing light goes.

JSeery · 08-18-2014, 08:37 AM

I would suggest that you can make this WAY to complicated. All that is needed to establish ignition timing is to mark a TDC on the pulley (anywhere you like) and establish a pointer. To time the engine you can use two methods depending on your timing light:
Method 1 - Mark the pulley where you want to set the timing, say 4 degree BTDC with a bright marker of some type. Start the engine and move the distributer back and forth until your mark lines up with the pointer.
Method 2 - Mark TDC on the pulley and use a timing light with an adjustable timing indicator set to say 4 degrees and again move the distributer until the mark lines up with the pointer.
That is all there is to it. You can use #1 or #6 to trigger the timing light. If you want to try a different setting, say 2 degrees, them remove the 4 degree mark and add a 2 degree mark. This should be very simple to accomplish as long as you have a permanent TDC mark (I would file a groove in the pulley).

George/Maine · 08-18-2014, 08:41 AM

I just guessed at#5 but if it wasn't in a good spot move to other cylinder.
Pick a point on cover and put a pointer there.
Now pick a cylinder left side and run engine, when light shows good mark pulley with tape put some numbers so you know witch way to go.
When you move to the spot that lines up.
Mark the pulley. That the new mark for what cylinder is best.
But that really not going to fix your problem with running.

08-17-2014, 06:55 PM	#3
36tudordeluxe Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 1,260	Re: Moving crank pulley timing pointer to other side? JSeery, agree with everything stated, but still wonder with pointer moved 180° if advance/ retard would be reversed now.

08-17-2014, 09:08 PM	#9
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Moving crank pulley timing pointer to other side? I think you have your answer above, but just so it clear the location of the timing marks has noting to do with what advances or retards the timing. These are just the timing marks and everything is still turning in the same direction, your not changing anything, timing marks can be anywhere as long as they are correct. If you put a TDC mark on say the pulley then ether add additional marks for maybe 2, 4, 6, 8 degrees BTDC and you won't have to worry about it or use an adjustable timing light (even better). Edit: Sounds like you don't have a very clear understanding as to what is going on with timing. An experiment might help. Put the engine on the current timing mark. Now take a white or silver marker and make a mark on the other side of the pulley where you might want the final marks to end up. Now ridge up some type of temporary pointer (wire or something). Start the car up and check the timing marks with a timing light and you should be able to see what is going on. You could even add a few BTDC marks to see what that looks like. Last edited by JSeery; 08-17-2014 at 09:20 PM.

08-17-2014, 10:20 PM	#10
36tudordeluxe Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 1,260	Re: Moving crank pulley timing pointer to other side? Am probably "over thinking," have a tendency to do that.

08-17-2014, 10:32 PM	#11
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Moving crank pulley timing pointer to other side? Trial and error is a fairly good teacher, if you stick with it!

08-18-2014, 06:50 AM	#14
George/Maine Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mid coast Maine Posts: 1,878	Re: Moving crank pulley timing pointer to other side? There is more to this idea then TDC. First use cylinder # 5 put a piece of tape on pulley. If you have TDC on #1 don't move dist. Now move to #5 with light and see it on tape when running. That should be TDC on#5 What I like to do if no light is drive and test. Mark all movements, move 1/4 " at time turn dist. When you like it lock it down. Low vacuum is do to hot rod cam . Look at some cams and some say idle poor idle. A good stock cam will be ok if you are going to race that's another thing. I run a 265 stock cam and Ford original dist. with 2 97s and have no problems other then running hot. I did have to cut the bottom off my shroud block the air flow. This is in my 39 standard.

08-17-2014, 06:03 PM	#2
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Moving crank pulley timing pointer to other side? The marks can be anywhere, they just have to be correct! Need to establish TDC for cylinder #1 and mark whatever you are marking and establish a pointer that is correct for the mark. There are applications that use the flywheel, the important part is the correct determination of TDC. In my option, TDC needs to be established by a method other than attempting to guess when the piston is at the top of it's stroke. You need some type of positive stop and use the split difference method to establish TDC.

08-17-2014, 07:20 PM	#4
oldford2 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: pittsfield, MA Posts: 2,086	Re: Moving crank pulley timing pointer to other side? I think if you are at TDC and the rotor is at #1 in the cap. You can move the mark anywhere on the cover and crank pulley and advance/retard direction is the same. Notice I said "I think" John

08-17-2014, 07:28 PM	#5
36tudordeluxe Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 1,260	Re: Moving crank pulley timing pointer to other side? Understand that rotating the distributor direction remains unchanged as far as advance/ retard but does it appear the same when using timing light on the other side of pulley? Light showing below TDC is advance and above retarded? Am stuck on the idea pointer has been moved 180°; guess I will get the answer to this when I actually move the pointer to other side.

08-17-2014, 08:14 PM	#8
George/Maine Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mid coast Maine Posts: 1,878	Re: Moving crank pulley timing pointer to other side? If you move it 180 degs it will be under car. maybe 90 degs. Best move dist when running at best rpms then back off some. Good enoght. I think you have a bad cam and did you put it in .Was it new in box. Also with that electric fan when moveing 30 40 mph the shroud could be blocking the air flow may have to cut bottom off. I had that problem.

08-18-2014, 07:11 AM	#15
Walt Dupont--Me. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Gardiner Me. Posts: 4,200	Re: Moving crank pulley timing pointer to other side? I think you mean #6 George, that's the companion cyl. to #1 you can hook the timing light up to 1 or 6 both pistons are at TDC and the timing mark will be in the same place.

08-18-2014, 08:37 AM	#17
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Moving crank pulley timing pointer to other side? I would suggest that you can make this WAY to complicated. All that is needed to establish ignition timing is to mark a TDC on the pulley (anywhere you like) and establish a pointer. To time the engine you can use two methods depending on your timing light: Method 1 - Mark the pulley where you want to set the timing, say 4 degree BTDC with a bright marker of some type. Start the engine and move the distributer back and forth until your mark lines up with the pointer. Method 2 - Mark TDC on the pulley and use a timing light with an adjustable timing indicator set to say 4 degrees and again move the distributer until the mark lines up with the pointer. That is all there is to it. You can use #1 or #6 to trigger the timing light. If you want to try a different setting, say 2 degrees, them remove the 4 degree mark and add a 2 degree mark. This should be very simple to accomplish as long as you have a permanent TDC mark (I would file a groove in the pulley).

08-18-2014, 08:41 AM	#18
George/Maine Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mid coast Maine Posts: 1,878	Re: Moving crank pulley timing pointer to other side? I just guessed at#5 but if it wasn't in a good spot move to other cylinder. Pick a point on cover and put a pointer there. Now pick a cylinder left side and run engine, when light shows good mark pulley with tape put some numbers so you know witch way to go. When you move to the spot that lines up. Mark the pulley. That the new mark for what cylinder is best. But that really not going to fix your problem with running.