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Old 10-24-2016, 12:19 AM   #1
bdtutton
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Default 3 point seat belts in Fordor car

Hello,
I finally convinced my wife that I need a Ford model A. I plan to drive it to work every day because I only live a few miles from work and the speed limit is between 25-45mph all the way. So I should be OK.....

I do have one major problem to overcome before I can make my model A dream happen...My wife is very concerned about safety and will not ride in the car until it has some serious seat belts...preferably 3 point seat belts for the front seat passengers and lap belts in the back. I have found some examples of 3 point seat belts installed in a Tudor, but not in a Fordor.
I planned to purchase a Fordor, but without being able to put proper seat belts into the car my wife will declare it unsafe.

So my question is....Has anyone tried to put proper 3 point seatbelts in the front seats of a Ford Model A Fordor without replacing the seat with a pair of bucket seats from a convertible that have the shoulder and lap belts integrated into the seat.
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Old 10-24-2016, 02:00 AM   #2
Mike V. Florida
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Default Re: 3 point seat belts in Fordor car

Keep in mind that the B post is made of wood. The only way I can see mounting the shoulder belt would be to replace the B post with steel. How this could be done and how you would then fasten the sheet metal and upholstery, I have no idea.

Does she know where the gas tank is?
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Old 10-24-2016, 08:18 AM   #3
Kevin in NJ
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Default Re: 3 point seat belts in Fordor car

You have a difficult task ahead of you.

The A from an accident standpoint will always not be a modern car.

My thoughts are you may not really want to have 3 point as you have not good way to anchor the top point. You need to have the point kind of far back because the only way to get strength is to make the system in shear. The B pillar is right at you shoulder and is somewhat weak unless you re-engineer a metal cage instead of the wood.

** I forgot about slant window bodies, they have steel posts and would be a different design thought.

Why is this bad, well the 3 belt system is only as good at all the mount points. The shoulder point is going to be fairly weak (think able to hold over 1000 lbs in the direction the belt will pull). Once the shoulder rips you loose waist belt.

So a basic waist belt system can be rigged in shear that will handle a lot of the force and not break. That will hold you in place. It may not be pretty in the fordor to do correct. Too many belt systems I have seen made up for the A's have the belts going directly down from the back of the seat cushion. This is not good as it will not hold a lot and there is a looseness due to the cushions allowing the belts to move a lot till they are taught. People also use the wrong metals and do not put everything in shear, that is 90 degrees to the bolts to use the strength of the bolts. Model your belts on how they did them in the 60 and 70's cars. The Mustangs are a good teaching model.

Now lets move to the cab. The area where you sit is just too close to everything. It does not take much till you are going to hit something that will hurt you. Yes, your head will leave a nice dent in the dash board. Yes that steering wheel is strong and will hurt. If you can get enough time because of a lap belt the injury level decreases quite a bit.

I will leave you with the idea these are just my opinions. I have a degree in physics, I ran in a rescue squad for 14 years and I have some idea about materials strength. I am not a mechanical engineer so use at your own risk.

Last edited by Kevin in NJ; 10-24-2016 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 10-24-2016, 09:07 AM   #4
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Default Re: 3 point seat belts in Fordor car

Tell her you are going to get a motorcycle, then compromise with a Model A.
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Old 10-24-2016, 09:51 AM   #5
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Default Re: 3 point seat belts in Fordor car

You didn't say which Fordor. The later 160A,B,C Slant Window fordors have steel B pillars that you can weld an anchor point into for a 3-point retractable system.

Here's the 3 point pivot and retractor on the B pillar in my 160B.

It's a complete three-point retractable inertia lock (ELR) system like in a modern car. The door post mounting for the retractor and upper swivel took some engineering on my part for attachment and strength. They are available from several vendors, many are USA made and assembled, some are cheaper chinese
LINK

The height of the upper pivot from the seat was determined using DOT/SAE guidelines.
When you buy a 'kit' the mounting height should be in the instructions.

I used the anchor plates available from the belt companies. Yes, you could rip them through the body, but that amount of force would probably cut me in half with the belt anyway.


Since the A does not have a collapsable steering wheel, a three point harness is an extremely good idea. If you are in a collision severe enough to rip the shoulder mount from the B pillar leaving you "beltless", the energy necessary to rip out the mount will have reduced your forward motion considerably. The alternative (a simple lap belt) in the same collision will allow your upper torso to smash violently into the steering wheel, likely killing you.


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Old 10-24-2016, 10:26 AM   #6
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Default Re: 3 point seat belts in Fordor car

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Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle View Post
Tell her you are going to get a motorcycle, then compromise with a Model A.
When I drive my Town Sedan I liken it to riding my motorcycle, you HAVE to drive defensively and be aware of everyone and everything around you.

The only difference being I think a motorcycle is actually safer in some ways because you can maneuver it faster and stop quicker.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bdtutton View Post
Hello, I finally convinced my wife that I need a Ford Model A. d
You are right. You do NEED a Ford Model A. I love my Town Sedan...

Last edited by Y-Blockhead; 10-24-2016 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 10-25-2016, 10:09 PM   #7
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Default Re: 3 point seat belts in Fordor car

MikeK... I did not know the slant window had a steel body. I like the way you attached the 3 point seat belt to the car, but my legs are kind of long and I am not sure how well it would work with the seat most of the way back.
I recently saw a Model A that someone had taken the bucket seats out of a late model convertible and mounted in a Model A. The high back bucket seats had 3 point belts built into them. They created a steel frame to mount the seats to the car. The idea was to help protect the driver and front passenger in both frontal and rear impacts. Since they were also running a 12 volt system they were able to use the built in seat heaters too. Besides that the only real modifications they did to the car was to add very nice front turn signals and a high mount brake light.
I really don't like seeing people put modern engine/transmissions/suspension with power steering and A/C in older cars, but I am starting to think adding a few safety items would be a good idea. I remember the days when people died in 25 MPH accidents that people in modern cars walk away from without a scratch. The most important thing is preventing your body from coming to a sudden stop against a hard immovable object inside the car.
..
Any opinions out there on this forum??
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Old 10-25-2016, 10:44 PM   #8
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Default Re: 3 point seat belts in Fordor car

Also ensure you mount the belts (or seat) to something solid under the floor. Keep in mind the floors of Model As are mostly made of 3/4" wood and sheet metal.

I ran apiece of 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" X 3/16" angle iron between from frame rail to frame rail of my Town Sedan for both front and back seat belts.
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Last edited by Y-Blockhead; 10-25-2016 at 11:50 PM.
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Old 10-26-2016, 12:59 AM   #9
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Default Re: 3 point seat belts in Fordor car

In my '28 and '29 Model As, I have fitted lap belts for the three passengers but because of the steering wheel, I wanted something better for the driver (me). There is a strong box section across the rear of the body at the bottom, behind the seat cushion. I attached the lap belts for the rear passengers there AND an attachment point for another belt which is "Y" shaped with each leg of the Y going over one of my shoulders. Basically, what I have is a 3 points harness like they use in racing cars. I figure I can't do any better than that. I haven't had them approved but like someone said on this forum a while ago, I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6. If I had a serious accident in the A, I'd consider my installation a success if the authorities were able to take action against me.
The weird part is that we are perfectly legal with No seatbelts but may not be WITH them.
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Old 10-26-2016, 02:35 AM   #10
H. L. Chauvin
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Default Re: 3 point seat belts in Fordor car

Defensive Driving:

This has been mentioned before, but I find drivers today respect vehicle size; e. g., if they see a large flat bed truck with a dozer and/or drag line on it, or a huge dump truck, they wait before they pull out.

If they see a little flimsy looking Model A, they have no fear and pull out right in front of you where you have to slam on the breaks.

Same with "impatient" drivers passing Model As in heavy traffic ...... make you apply the brakes when they cut back in line.

When one factors in the today's high drug use, ice cold beer on ice at all convenience stores for their drive home from work, & the constant texting of other drivers, the often mentioned "Defensive Driving" has a whole new meaning while driving an 80+ year old Model A today.

Going somewhere ..... please try to leave a little early ...... always look both ways and do not rely 100% on STOP signs and caution lights to control today's traffic ..... accidents always happen when we are least expected ...... yellow caution lights prior to red usually means speed up to some.

Just hope this helps to remember to try to drive safely ...... Sympathy Cards very seldom express how we truly feel when we hear of a fellow Forum member who was in an accident.

Last edited by H. L. Chauvin; 10-26-2016 at 02:42 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 10-26-2016, 07:56 AM   #11
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Default Re: 3 point seat belts in Fordor car

Bd,
Do a search on this forum for "Retractable 3 point seat belts in a sedan" That is a post I made some time ago showing how to mount these belts in a sedan. It was a Chrysler but the ideas should be adaptable for the Model A. For me, they have worked very well.

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Old 10-26-2016, 10:20 AM   #12
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Default Re: 3 point seat belts in Fordor car

You mentioned "heated seats" as an advantage if you swap-in modern buckets.

That would suggest cold-weather driving.

I would advise against that if you live in "salt country"... I ran my Special Coupe through one NE PA winter, and will never do it again after seeing what the salt / brine treatment did to the car.
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Old 07-11-2022, 09:35 AM   #13
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Default Re: 3 point seat belts in Fordor car

Mike, I saw your installation of a 3 point seat belt with retractor on the B pillar on a fordoor that you made some years ago. I want to do this in a Tudor. Would it be possible that you could give some advise and hints in a PM ? For example, did you do it in connection with restauration or as retrofit ?
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Old 07-11-2022, 02:22 PM   #14
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Default Re: 3 point seat belts in Fordor car

As mentioned, Model A's are never going to be as safe as a modern car. I guess you could weld in a roll cage and add a racing harness. A Model A is not going to go as fast as a modern car but the problem is other drivers. A front end collusion with a semi is not going to end well.
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Old 07-11-2022, 05:58 PM   #15
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Default Re: 3 point seat belts in Fordor car

Physics and mechanical engineering have been mentioned previously and you had better have something better than a high school understanding of these before attempting a SAFE installation of seat belts in a model A. There is nothing in a stock model A that a safe seat belt can be attached to or even modified to without going to a full race cage, seat, harness and associated components.
Anything else is a poor compromise.

Some people may not think so but the laws of physics apply to ALL MATTER in the universe.
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Old 07-11-2022, 07:08 PM   #16
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Default Re: 3 point seat belts in Fordor car

There is a guy here who has 3 point system in his a400. He runs the "over the shoulder" portion to the rear seat belt where it clicks in there. It's not retractable- but it is a 3 point system. Not saying it's as good as others, but it's a thought to consider.
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Old 07-11-2022, 10:06 PM   #17
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Default Re: 3 point seat belts in Fordor car

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Old 07-16-2022, 06:56 AM   #18
Kevin in NJ
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Default Re: 3 point seat belts in Fordor car

At issue with retractable belt systems is give.

They usually have a bit of give before they take hold. Then you get belt stretch. So in a minor collision you may move inches before they get hold. Also if they are not always snug against your shoulder there will be more play.

I am not saying they are bad. I am just saying keep that thought in consideration as you engineer a solution to your belt installation.
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Old 07-16-2022, 10:06 AM   #19
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Default Re: 3 point seat belts in Fordor car

As far as the steering wheel, you can get seat mounting posts for the Tudor that move the front seats back maybe 1-1/2 inches. That is not much but it may help. On the Fordor, maybe there is a way to move the seat back an inch or two. These cars were made when the average height of the adult population was a couple inches shorter than now so you are probably tall enough to move the seat. This would make the shoulder anchor position worse but it is in the wrong location anyway. Just a thought or two.
BTW, I started trying to put a 3 point system into my Tudor and ended up with just lap belts because I could not find a good anchor for the shoulder belt without adding a welded plate.
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