a 400 on BAT went for 22k

[ronn]

to those that argue prices are up on A's


I disagree. this was a nice running #3 car and 22k was a steal........

[updraught]

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1931-ford-model-a-53/
Should have left it RHD.

[1931 flamingo]

Lots not factory BUT still a bargain IMO also.
Paul in CT

[ronn]

Interior looks like leather- whats not to like? colors are terrific.


I bid on the car, but decided to let it go because it had to come cross country.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by ronn

to those that argue prices are up on A's


I disagree. this was a nice running #3 car and 22k was a steal........

Ronn, help me out on the evaluation number please. As I understand it, a #1 is basically a concours-level automobile. A #6 is a parts car and a #5 is a complete and restorable vehicle. A #3 car is typically a 'Good' condition vehicle with a well-done amateur restoration. A #4 car similar to a #3 except it is one with a poor-quality amateur restoration. Based on the pictures I looked at, this vehicle is a #4 level vehicle 'at best'! I will list the items that I feel lowers it to that level, ...and you tell me what makes this a decent level restoration worthy to be considered a #3 level.

The paint has issues, no pinstriping, and is an unauthentic color. The interior appears to be vinyl in places (-instead of dark grained leather), the incorrect color material & pattern, foam was used instead of cotton, the ash trays appear to be missing, the interior trim (window trim, garnish mouldings, belt rail panel, etc.) are painted and not Walnut woodgrained, the top irons are not correctly plated/painted, W/S Frame not chrome plated, ...and that list goes on in there.

The engine compartment is full of repro pieces that do not even begin to look authentic. Items like incorrect generator & cut-out, carburetor, fan, coil, etc. all detract from a well-done restoration ...and the proper parts could have easily been used yp raise the quality. FWIW, the bit about it having an Argentina-rebuilt engine wouldn't thrill me either!!

Then factor in the undercarriage where it has an incorrect rear end assembly, incorrect front brakes, brake rod return springs are incorrectly installed, look at the battery support carrier tray, the missing motor mount safety wires, the broken fender bracket, the shock links, and more.

So if these are the items that we can see from pictures, shall we take a guess as to the quality of the wood, and the other items? Does the (incorrect) wiper work, the horn work, the shocks work, is the transmission noisy, -and so on. It is my opinion this car brought VERY strong money. If I am incorrect, y'all help me out where I am wrong, but very likely in my mind this new buyer will be spending a bit more on it in the future.

.
.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

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Originally Posted by ronn

Interior looks like leather- whats not to like? colors are terrific.

Ummmm, maybe that it is incorrect in color, pattern, and cheaply done. I think I addressed some of it in my post above. Did you see the escutcheons? Did you read the part about the window regulator not working well? Do you suppose that is because they are worn out and will require servicing in the future??

[ronn]

OK Brent- I bow down............lol


A #3 to me is a nice driver, and that is what this car is to me. With the high end restorations you do daily, I guess you are not in my world.


I frequent local car shows often and rarely see anything over a #2 car. A #4 car to me just about runs and needs some major work. eye of the beholder I guess and which judging standards are being used.


Most cars today done in fine shops like yours, are in my opinion- over restored. Not saying that is a bad thing.For example, dont think Henrys paint jobs were even close to todays standards.

[ronn]

bottom line Brent- do you not think this was cheap money for an A400?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by ronn

bottom line Brent- do you not think this was cheap money for an A400?

Well I appreciate the compliment on the other, ....or I think I do!


Honestly, I think the car probably brought a little more than it is worth. Maybe if I could have test driven it, my mind might have changed a little but I suspect it was a poor restoration where it is going to need another $5k worth of parts and a 100+ hours of "fixin' stuff". Then, add to the price of a rebuilt engine that you can trust, and I think when you add-in another $5k-$10k to the above mentioned stuff, you find you are approaching a total investment of $30k-$40k. You still have a car with failing paint and a cheap interior. I think $35k-$40k would buy a really nice Convertible Sedan in the #3, -or even #2 condition.


As for prices of Model-As rising, ...I think it is the nicer cars that have a quality restoration (-not necessarily a pro resto but a nice & thorough amateur resto) are the ones that are on the rise. Too much junk out there just like this car we are speaking about that people have started to realize that once they buy it it still needs lots of work to be reliable.

[ronn]

yes, it is a compliment and I appreciate your words of wisdom more then you know-


on the other hand, a total wreck of an A400 in a heap on the floor brings a low of say 15k and so that is how I derive my pricing. so many guys on here start with, it needs x amount to fix this and x amount to fix that............. that to me is not a fair evaluation, unless you are always looking at having a top end car.
most on this board drive a so so nice driver, very few are at fine points level. I agree- A HUGE difference. Not saying there isnt merit to buying a little better car for say 40k, but not everyone on this board has or is willing to drop 40k or 60k etc for a model A.
I personally draw a limit, whether I can afford it or not. At 60k, I am looking at Mercers.............

[Oldbluoval]

MAYBE....one could use it as a fun driver ...if it runs well.
If that’s the goal then it’s not a bad deal. If one really wants a decent 400, Brent has hit it in the missing parts.
I think one could find a nice slant fordor or
Similar for that kind of money.
If a goal is to one day make a NICE 400 they should expect to spend a lot of
Money undoing and finding missing parts

[1931 flamingo]

Whatever, it's still an A-400..................
Paul in CT

[WHN]

I would say that it looks like a great driver.

A 400 as a driver! Great.

Enjoy.

[ronn]

old blue- you are putting me to sleep..............lol


nice slant fordor? wheres the comparison? couldnt give me a slant fordor..........


OK, if its free.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

Whatever, it's still an A-400..................
Paul in CT

Originally Posted by WHN

I would say that it looks like a great driver.

A 400 as a driver! Great.

Enjoy.

Let me reiterate something and then ask for an opinion.


If the engine was rebuilt using potentially questionable techniques/materials from 40 years ago, -and the transmission & rear end were last inspected/repaired 40 years ago in Argentina, would it be a safe bet to say that it is highly probable that the engine does not have good valves, pistons, a H/C head, or anything other than a (used) stock camshaft.

What is the probability when the car was converted to LHD that the restorer used new or NORS transmission gears and bearings in the transmission? The same applies for the rear end when it was installed (40 years ago??). What about the condition of the steering or brakes??

So with the above said, what is real world expectation with this car? Is there an expectation that you as the new owner will be able to jump in 'as-is' and drive on the next tour, --or is there an expectation it will need to have work done to make it safe & reliable. If so, -what would you feel would need to be done and what would those associated costs be??

[CHuDWah]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Let me reiterate something and then ask for an opinion...

Well since you asked, this may not answer the question but it is an opinion.

Your critique of the car seems to involve two issues, safety/reliability versus authenticity that doesn't affect the first issue. Authenticity may or may not concern a buyer. But safety and reliability should. Thing is, any old car is a crap-shoot. You can get an idea of condition by inspecting/driving it, but you can't be certain without tearing down the components you mention, as well as others. If you're going to do that, you may as well bite the bullet and restore the car correctly. IOW, hope for the best but expect the worst.

How all that affects value depends on variables specific to the car. As others have mentioned, this one is an A-400. Bottom line, a car is "worth" what a buyer will pay and a seller will accept. Apparently this one is worth $22K.

[Ed in Maine]

You buy what you like and what you can afford. Don't expect to make money on it, expect to have a whole lot of fun with it. When it is all over, you can say you owed an A400 and that is not what most of us will be able to say! Just my take, Ed

[ronn]

yep an A 400


seems some of us missed that point..........


all I was really implying. one of my all time favorite body styles and so few of them left- too boot!


Maybe the topic should be changed to- how many of us on this board drive over 100 miles a year in one of our cars?


that might be a more interesting topic.

[ronn]

would love to see a survey on this board of how many people drive their car 100 miles a year
500 miles a yr
1000 miles a yr and over 3000 miles a yr.


would really provide a lot of info on what "quality" of cars we tend to drive.


or maybe is your car a #1 #2 #3 or a parts car? (exaggeration is in order)

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by CHuDWah

Your critique of the car seems to involve two issues, safety/reliability versus authenticity that doesn't affect the first issue. Authenticity may or may not concern a buyer. But safety and reliability should. Thing is, any old car is a crap-shoot. You can get an idea of condition by inspecting/driving it, but you can't be certain without tearing down the components you mention, as well as others. If you're going to do that, you may as well bite the bullet and restore the car correctly. IOW, hope for the best but expect the worst.

How all that affects value depends on variables specific to the car. As others have mentioned, this one is an A-400. Bottom line, a car is "worth" what a buyer will pay and a seller will accept. Apparently this one is worth $22K.

I think part of what you are saying is spot-on, ...and I also feel there are many (about 400 as of now) that are reading this trying to learn, so there is value in us discussing this topic.


So often I have talk with potential customers, and new customers about this same thing. Often they made a purchase without considering many of the things we have discussed above, and after purchase they unfortunately find themselves forced into spending more money because the car was not what they thought they were buying. It doesn't need to be this way IMO. Unfortunately, just because someone paid a certain price for a vehicle does not mean it is worth that amount. I think more often than not, the buyer makes the purchase based on what they think they are getting instead of what they are actually receiving.


As for the authenticity part of my post, part of what increases the value of 'restored' car is the appearance of being authentic. The opposite of that also holds true with values.

As for the 'crap shoot', your point is valid however the experienced Model-A mechanic should know enough about what (s)he is looking at & listening to during the test drive to make a great assessment of that vehicle's condition. Most of us here are experienced well enough with a Model-A that we can tell an engine's condition by listening to the starter spinning, by listening for bearing noises, listening for exhaust leaks, looking at the oil fill tube for blow-by, and watching the crankshaft pulley spin. A quick drive around the block shifting gears noting how loose the shift lever is, listening for gears growling, and checking for jumping out of gear on quick deceleration. The same for steering. Just because they claim it has new spindle bolts does not mean they were installed correctly. Turning the steering wheel while driving slowly tells us much about the condition of the gearbox and linkages. Shaking the front wheels tells me much about the steering arms, spindles, and bearings. By doing this, most experienced Model-A restorers can take most of the 'crap-shoot' portion out of the buying experience IMO.

So bringing this full circle, if any of us participating in this thread would have accompanied the Buyer to inspect that vehicle, -and if we had shared with them exactly (-i.e.: only) what we have discussed in this post, do you feel they still would have made the purchase for the same amount it sold for, ...or would they have possibly bid a lesser amount? My vote is the latter. So often people get caught up in the vehicle's 'shine', or because they like the bodystyle, ...and they just let their emotions set the price of the car for them. That is why I feel it is so important for a novice buyer to have a well qualified Model-A mechanic there to do the evaluation and the inspection with them.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by ronn

would love to see a survey on this board of how many people drive their car 100 miles a year
500 miles a yr
1000 miles a yr and over 3000 miles a yr.


would really provide a lot of info on what "quality" of cars we tend to drive.
or maybe is your car a #1 #2 #3 or a parts car? (exaggeration is in order)

Ronn, I think the answer to the 'how many miles driven' question is greatly dependent on whether you have a level #3 or a level #4 car. The ones that won't Stop, Start, & Steer well, and generally just look crappy tend to not be used as much because they can cause as much stress as happiness.

If you have a #3 level car that is reliable and looks nice, the owner and their family are all too proud and wants to be seen everywhere they go. Not just in the beginning when the car is new to them, but repeatedly over time where the family's time is being spent driving instead of the car in the garage awaiting repairs or more parts. I know plenty of hobbyists who routinely drive their Model-As 300-500 miles a month just out doing errands and going to events several times a week.

I also know of many Model-Aers that are scared to get out of their neighborhood in their restored Model-A because it is unreliable. Generally speaking, Spouses do not like this, -and as such they choose not to participate in evening rides or going to dinner with friends & family. Therefore it is easier for that owner to just leave it parked in the garage where it may accumulate 100 miles a year of driving.

( I suspect this A400 fit into that category )

[Oldbluoval]

Ronn…
All of us need a good nights sleep….the older I get the less sleep seems to work.
There are 3 A400 sitting in my shop. I also make a significant number of parts for them and cabbys
A400 are a lot of show and much aggravation imho. The top irons are surpassed only by the 180a in fragility. Also the top rail remaining doesn’t give as much credence to
“Convertible” but they are really beautiful cars. My fav is really 68c but as hard to find as a 400.
But that’s why Baskin & Robbins makes 32 flavors!

[todd3131]

I tried to buy a basket case in 2009 that was just the sheet metal no seats no top no wood and no chassis. The POS went for 14k! I have wanted a 400 my entire life but wasn't willing to pay the money they have been getting. This car with all it's issues is well worth what it sold for and I wish I had known about it because I wouldn't have haggled just sent the money. I am going to step my efforts in finding one now.

[Keith True]

I think a car like this has a bottom line because of what it is.Quality,correctness,and condition come pretty far down the list.I couldn't make a guess as to what that line would be because they have no appeal to me.I think they're uglier than a stump fence.However,in 2005 I bought one from an estate on the coast of Maine.It had 1960 plates on it,and it was almost mummified because of the dryness of the building it was stores in.It was absolutely rust free and 100%complete.I paid $14,500 for it and in 2008 I sold it for nearly for what this one shown here brought.

[ronn]

interesting duscussion and thanks for everyone who participated.


Like you Todd, I find the body style enamoring! Yes Oval, they might have their problems or crappy engineering in certain aspects, but so do many high end cars in the v 12 and v 16 arena, for exmaple.
I guess what it comes down to is, the a 400 for me is a piece of sculpture in looks and one of my top 3 designs. Only beaten by the towncar for me. I have had the chance to buy an a 180 for a bit less then this car, but the style of the a 400 is still draws me in like a siren. Have heard with the top down, you can barely see out the back............
something that doesnt worry me.

[todd3131]

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Originally Posted by ronn

interesting duscussion and thanks for everyone who participated.


Like you Todd, I find the body style enamoring! Yes Oval, they might have their problems or crappy engineering in certain aspects, but so do many high end cars in the v 12 and v 16 arena, for exmaple.
I guess what it comes down to is, the a 400 for me is a piece of sculpture in looks and one of my top 3 designs. Only beaten by the towncar for me. I have had the chance to buy an a 180 for a bit less then this car, but the style of the a 400 is still draws me in like a siren. Have heard with the top down, you can barely see out the back............
something that doesnt worry me.

I agree with you about the 68c but I had a 31 Chevrolet cabriolet and it is similar to it and that kind of filled that void. Sold the car for 25 k and it resold a few years back for 37k need that convert.

[CHuDWah]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I think part of what you are saying is spot-on, ...and I also feel there are many (about 400 as of now) that are reading this trying to learn, so there is value in us discussing this topic.


So often I have talk with potential customers, and new customers about this same thing. Often they made a purchase without considering many of the things we have discussed above, and after purchase they unfortunately find themselves forced into spending more money because the car was not what they thought they were buying. It doesn't need to be this way IMO. Unfortunately, just because someone paid a certain price for a vehicle does not mean it is worth that amount. I think more often than not, the buyer makes the purchase based on what they think they are getting instead of what they are actually receiving.


As for the authenticity part of my post, part of what increases the value of 'restored' car is the appearance of being authentic. The opposite of that also holds true with values.

As for the 'crap shoot', your point is valid however the experienced Model-A mechanic should know enough about what (s)he is looking at & listening to during the test drive to make a great assessment of that vehicle's condition. Most of us here are experienced well enough with a Model-A that we can tell an engine's condition by listening to the starter spinning, by listening for bearing noises, listening for exhaust leaks, looking at the oil fill tube for blow-by, and watching the crankshaft pulley spin. A quick drive around the block shifting gears noting how loose the shift lever is, listening for gears growling, and checking for jumping out of gear on quick deceleration. The same for steering. Just because they claim it has new spindle bolts does not mean they were installed correctly. Turning the steering wheel while driving slowly tells us much about the condition of the gearbox and linkages. Shaking the front wheels tells me much about the steering arms, spindles, and bearings. By doing this, most experienced Model-A restorers can take most of the 'crap-shoot' portion out of the buying experience IMO.

So bringing this full circle, if any of us participating in this thread would have accompanied the Buyer to inspect that vehicle, -and if we had shared with them exactly (-i.e.: only) what we have discussed in this post, do you feel they still would have made the purchase for the same amount it sold for, ...or would they have possibly bid a lesser amount? My vote is the latter. So often people get caught up in the vehicle's 'shine', or because they like the bodystyle, ...and they just let their emotions set the price of the car for them. That is why I feel it is so important for a novice buyer to have a well qualified Model-A mechanic there to do the evaluation and the inspection with them.

I don't mean to sound flippant but the above pretty much boils down to caveat emptor. I agree if one isn't qualified to assess a car, they should consult someone who is. But it needs to be understood that while an expert can dispel most uncertainty, it still isn't 100%.

I'm nowhere near your level of expertise but I'm experienced enough to not get hurt, at least not too badly, on a purchase. I confess that early on, a car or two weren't what I thought I was buying. Does that mean they weren't worth what I paid? In the sense that I couldn't sell them for that amount, yes but maybe the education was worth the loss. And experienced or otherwise, I've probably paid more than I should have for a car simply because I liked it. OTOH, some command a premium because of what they are, e.g., a 400 versus say, a 29 Tudor.

I didn't mean to imply that authenticity doesn't affect value. It obviously does. My point is folks have different motivations for owning old cars so the value they place on authenticity differs. That value may be high for some who want to show a fine pointer. Others may want just a safe, reliable, more-or-less authentic driver but really don't care whether the reverse oscillating framistan is plated or painted. Still others may not care about driving or if the car even runs when they buy it because they like working on it. And there probably are lots of other reasons.

I don't know the motivation or experience of this car’s buyer. So I can't answer your question whether they would have bid differently given knowledgeable consultation. All I can do is reiterate they paid $22K so apparently that's what it's worth to them.

[CHuDWah]

Originally Posted by ronn

interesting duscussion and thanks for everyone who participated.


Like you Todd, I find the body style enamoring! Yes Oval, they might have their problems or crappy engineering in certain aspects, but so do many high end cars in the v 12 and v 16 arena, for exmaple.
I guess what it comes down to is, the a 400 for me is a piece of sculpture in looks and one of my top 3 designs. Only beaten by the towncar for me. I have had the chance to buy an a 180 for a bit less then this car, but the style of the a 400 is still draws me in like a siren. Have heard with the top down, you can barely see out the back............
something that doesnt worry me.

I may as well as jump in re the aesthetic and I'm ambivalent about it. IMHO, the 400-A with the top up is beautiful - with the top down, it's butt-ugly.

[Joop]

Both sides

[Joop]

I love them

[nkaminar]

Here is my take: If you are going to use the car as a driver then the one sold for $22,000 is probably good enough. Any car you buy will need some work, even if it is only maintenance. The little things that are broken can be fixed as time and funds allow. If it is going to be a driver then I would leave the paint and upholstery alone. Engine upgrades, including any overhaul, can be done as needed, ditto the transmission, rearend, adding an overdrive, etc. Any safety equipment, like good operating brakes need to have first priority.

I have been able to help a couple club members recently. Both cars would not stop when standing on the brakes. In one car, the brakes were so rusted up that the levers would not move. That car was bought as is and I felt sorry for the new owner.

Whoever buys a car, if you are not an experienced Model A person, please bring a knowledgeable Model A mechanic along to inspect the car. Who would by a house or a yacht without a inspection or survey?

[Jordan]

I have been on this forum since it switched owners and I will say I cannot remember a car or restoration that Brent didn't pick apart on here. There's always areas of improvement that he suggests or makes known. He owns a restoration company so naturally he is going to pick apart other people's work.

Bottom line, it's not a bad price for the car. As others have said, basket cases and a400's that are in such a need of restoration that they can't be driven go in the mid teens. We can say "this is wrong or this is incorrect"... but at the end of the day it's an a400 that is put together, decently painted and decent interior, runs & drives... 22k is not a bad price. I think if he turned around and sold it he wouldn't have a problem getting his money back.

Even if he took a basket case and put it together to match this level of work and wear/tear.... you'd be in it for well over 22k.

[Oldbluoval]

“I have been on this forum since it switched owners and I will say I cannot remember a car or restoration that Brent didn't pick apart on here. There's always areas of improvement that he suggests or makes known. He owns a restoration company so naturally he is going to pick apart other people's work”

I don’t agree that Brent’s sharing of the ups and downs of a car, procedure, part or otherwise is in any way a pick apart. Brent has a wealth of experience and knowledge that he simply shares. Often a “what if” or counterpoint promotes critical thinking. Further, Brent has such a backlog that he would have no motive in criticizing others.
Imho

[WHN]

Originally Posted by Jordan

I have been on this forum since it switched owners and I will say I cannot remember a car or restoration that Brent didn't pick apart on here. There's always areas of improvement that he suggests or makes known. He owns a restoration company so naturally he is going to pick apart other people's work.

Bottom line, it's not a bad price for the car. As others have said, basket cases and a400's that are in such a need of restoration that they can't be driven go in the mid teens. We can say "this is wrong or this is incorrect"... but at the end of the day it's an a400 that is put together, decently painted and decent interior, runs & drives... 22k is not a bad price. I think if he turned around and sold it he wouldn't have a problem getting his money back.

Even if he took a basket case and put it together to match this level of work and wear/tear.... you'd be in it for well over 22k.

Well said!

I wanted to reply as you did, but I’ve already said the same thing a number of times.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Jordan

I have been on this forum since it switched owners and I will say I cannot remember a car or restoration that Brent didn't pick apart on here. There's always areas of improvement that he suggests or makes known. He owns a restoration company so naturally he is going to pick apart other people's work.

Bottom line, it's not a bad price for the car. As others have said, basket cases and a400's that are in such a need of restoration that they can't be driven go in the mid teens. We can say "this is wrong or this is incorrect"... but at the end of the day it's an a400 that is put together, decently painted and decent interior, runs & drives... 22k is not a bad price. I think if he turned around and sold it he wouldn't have a problem getting his money back.

Even if he took a basket case and put it together to match this level of work and wear/tear.... you'd be in it for well over 22k.

Jordan, I know you & I have butted heads in the past over differences of opinion, and I really do not want to continue that.

As for this car, I am only using my experience from what I have seen first-hand in my line of work. My opinions are solely my own. Mine do not carry any more weight than yours, -or anyone else's here.

Is it possible we are all assuming the engine runs decent? Are we also assuming the engine has been rebuilt? I believe the sales ad has it worded in such a way where it likely had a replacement engine installed 40 years ago before it came to the states. I have been around enough South American refurbished Model-As to know their craftsmanship can often be lacking and Macgyvered. When you look at the videos, they sure are short without a lot of time to listen for abnormalities. Hard to tell if the one video has smoke or dust coming from the back. ( I didn't see dust coming from the front wheels though. ) I have also learned that pictures generally always make a vehicle look better than it is.

Something else to ponder. The odometer shows 1,200 miles. If so, then 1,200 miles in 40 years equals to about 30 miles annually. From my observations, low mileages put on cars after they were restored generally means there was a reason why it wasn't driven. Is that reason because it was in a museum for all those years, -or was it because it did not run & drive well so it wasn't taken out of the garage much? And, we may never know the real reason why it wasn't driven.

My bottom line thoughts are that while some feel it may have been a steal, apparently no one here felt it was a good enough 'steal' to be the new owner, ...but hopefully the new owner does get much enjoyment out of his new car.

[ronn]

Brent you make many very valid points, and so do the rest of us. We are all entitled to our opinions and that is what makes these threads interesting.
I didnt buy the car because it is on the other side of the country and you can add 2k for shipping. then there is another 1k to bat for selling it. In the end, still think its a great deal, really like it and thats because its my cup of tea.
Old Blue may prefer sedans. nothing wrong with that either, but I do believe rarity holds far more value compared to condition. Rarity cant be easily found, condition can always be brought up in the future.
Finally, as Ive said before, we all have different budgets and values, and that doesnt make anyone right or wrong. One van gogh may be worth a million and another 50 million. is there a problem with that? Is what it is.

[Jeff/Illinois]

delete

[updraught]

I've only seen one bunch of chassis frames at a swap meet here from South America.
It made even the worst ones here look good. And most old cars here were used on farms and had a hard life.
That car sure would look good as a mild hot rod. Keep it looking the way it is and update the running gear and you would get your money back and more.

[Keith True]

I sold a 35 Ford a few months ago.It brought a good price because of it's desirability,not it's condition.It had the magic words attached to it,three window coupe.It sold for probably 3 times what it would have if it was a sedan. The street rod guys told me the price of admission was not as important as just getting it in their possession.I had around 30 responses,with the usual 20 idiots.i had a half dozen serious folks,and the second one in line bought it. This car was a 60's restoration,not run since 1978,It needed a full re-restoration.It did run sweet though.I had some interesting proposals on it too.One guy offered to wire me $500.to hold it for 7 days,and if he liked it he would pay the price.If not I would be $500.richer.Another offered $1000.more if I would sell it to him,and cut out the two people I had made arrangements with to see it.

[ronn]

well Keith, I was one of your idiots........you wanted a trade and that made the whole thing complicated........


LOL if it was cash, it would have been super simple- but you said you didnt want that.


hmmmmmm

[Keith True]

I don't think you were one of the idiots.Those guys were the ones responding,give yuh $2500,cash today.I wanted to trade it for a Phaeton,or maybe a wagon.I was looking at a nice Phaeton for sale,and a fellow asked me if I would take that amount of money for my car.I told him I would.I did lose track of some of the offers,there were just so many more than I thought there would be.There were a few people I had to call to give them the chance to meet the offer,I had promised them I would.a couple thought about it and passed,and one said that it was $10,000 more than he was willing to pay.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Keith True

I don't think you were one of the idiots.Those guys were the ones responding,give yuh $2500,cash today.I wanted to trade it for a Phaeton,or maybe a wagon.I was looking at a nice Phaeton for sale,and a fellow asked me if I would take that amount of money for my car.I told him I would.I did lose track of some of the offers,there were just so many more than I thought there would be.There were a few people I had to call to give them the chance to meet the offer,I had promised them I would.a couple thought about it and passed,and one said that it was $10,000 more than he was willing to pay.

Would this be an example of collector car prices on the rise??

.
.

[ronn]

for a 3 window Brent- of course, its called "RARITY"


what the A 400 is. Thanks for making my point............. haha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Aretino]

Emotions

[Keith True]

I'm real good about getting back to people about stuff I have for sale.I felt bad that I didn't get back to a lot of people,I wasn't trying to ignore them.i would be out laying block for a foundation and I would get calls about this car.Then,I would mix them up when I sat down at night.A good portion of people were looking at it as a car to restore and wanted to price it accordingly.The rarity and desirability factor meant nothing to them.But,a lot of people saw JUST that,and condition was way down on the list.The fact that it was registered and insured interested a whole other faction of people.My wife just told me there were dozens of responses that she just deleted without showing them to me.Those were the,trade your old car for my 85 Camaro types.If they looked somewhat serious she would send them my phone number.Talk,no text.

[ronn]

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all good Keith..........

[ronn]

Aretino- Aero said it best- SWEET EMOTION.................

[Keith True]

The 400-A I bought in Maine was an interesting deal.I got a letter from the estate lawyer asking if I was interested in an A.Still not sure how I was selected to receive the offer.The letter was very precise on how the transaction would happen.I was given a choice of appointment times,those were when the lawyer would be there to meet me.No details,(the lawyer knew nothing),just convertible sedan.Inspection was to be eyes only,no cranking over,no window rolling down,Just me and a flashight.Payment was to be paper only.No cash,no wire transfers,just any kind of a check.He told me a personal check was fine.I didn't need proof of insurance to look at it,but I did to air up the tires and winch it out.Every detail was spelled out in the letter,there were no surprises.I had brought my trailer with me,that presented a little bit of problem as the lawyer was allotted one hour to meet with me.I went for lunch and he sent somebody from his office to open the gate and wait for me to load.I actually paid the office guy,and got a detailed bill of sale,which boiled gown to they were selling me a pile of junk to do what I wanted to with.There were no discussions,it was spelled out very clearly it was to be yes or no.I knew in two minutes I was buying it.

[todd3131]

Originally Posted by Keith True

The 400-A I bought in Maine was an interesting deal.I got a letter from the estate lawyer asking if I was interested in an A.Still not sure how I was selected to receive the offer.The letter was very precise on how the transaction would happen.I was given a choice of appointment times,those were when the lawyer would be there to meet me.No details,(the lawyer knew nothing),just convertible sedan.Inspection was to be eyes only,no cranking over,no window rolling down,Just me and a flashight.Payment was to be paper only.No cash,no wire transfers,just any kind of a check.He told me a personal check was fine.I didn't need proof of insurance to look at it,but I did to air up the tires and winch it out.Every detail was spelled out in the letter,there were no surprises.I had brought my trailer with me,that presented a little bit of problem as the lawyer was allotted one hour to meet with me.I went for lunch and he sent somebody from his office to open the gate and wait for me to load.I actually paid the office guy,and got a detailed bill of sale,which boiled gown to they were selling me a pile of junk to do what I wanted to with.There were no discussions,it was spelled out very clearly it was to be yes or no.I knew in two minutes I was buying it.

Weird story! What did you do with the car?

[Keith True]

I sold it to a man in upstate New York.My dad and I were roofing some buildings for an elderly car collector near us.His specialty was 30's-40's and 50's GM products.But,he liked and about most anything.He had an old friend that wanted to do a 400-A before he died,so he asked if it was alright to contact me.I said sure,so HE wrote me a letter with contact info and I talked to him.He bought the car on my description,but I'm sure I was vouched for by my friend here.Correctness was the issue for him.I knew what I had,and I am not interested in the level of restoration this car was prime for.Some A guys around here looked at it,before I thought about selling it.I got kind of disgusted at some of the guys that really thought they were going to swindle me out of it,I really hadn't seen many of those guys since I was a kid first playing with the A's.I got one letter from him years later telling me the mechanicals had almost no wear,with perfect body parts.

[todd3131]

Cool story. I am going to find one and it will be my last.

[mhsprecher]

Originally Posted by todd3131

Cool story. I am going to find one and it will be my last.

Good luck.

[Oldbluoval]

3131
If you’re serious get in the A400 group
They become available pretty regularly
Find Joop in this post; he’s the administrator of the group

[ronn]

very good point Oldblue


I joined the 180 group and found some cars immediately- but also realized I prefer the a 400. A vicky and convertible in one, for me.

[todd3131]

Thank you I sent a message. Once I find a car the hard part begins...... The wife.

[Oldbluoval]

Just don’t involve her! She likely would just consider the whole subject a bother
Surprise her ....Say for birthday, anniversary or Christmas!
Yeah that’s it!!

[ronn]

My favorite line is- I have to ask the wife.


Have heard that no less then 100x. Inevitably, not one of those suckers has ever bought a car from me. It is a death sentence and the end of negotiating.

[Keith True]

I've sold thousands of things over the years,and checking with the wife is a polite way of saying you want too much,not nice enough,or I don't want your old junk.When dealing with a wife,(or a municipality)it is always easier to ask forgiveness that to ask for permission.You can try to reason,explain,justify,etc for weeks.The yelling will stop,you can't unring the bell.In the early 80's I bought a 34 Ford coupe body,from an ex stock car for $3500.That night my girlfriend came out into the garage and asked what I had bought.I told her a 34 Ford,she looked out front for it and said,prolly don't even run.Everybody in the garage was laughing,the body was sitting on stands in front of us in the garage.

[todd3131]

No she is pretty good I bought a 560 sl five years ago and I was going to do a quick flip on it. I just put 25 thousand miles on it and she won't let me sell it. My real hold back is I'm looking for another commercial property that I can rent out part of and make the other into a maker space for my son and some of my employees. Once I have that I will have a place to put it.

[ronn]

nice a 400 now listed in the swap at 40k..............


not mine.

[redmodelt]

Brent in 10-uh-C
I am familiar with this car.



While I don't have the information on everything we did, I can tell you that I rebuilt, when the car was in for service in 2017 (actually may have been earlier than the date listed in the ad, I would have to check); rear end, drag link, tie rod, service brake cross shaft, carburetor, cleaned and lubraplated the springs, replaced the shackles, new king pins, relined the all the brakes, installed cast iron drum, rebuilt or replaced associated hardware, repaired or replaced all brake rods as needed, installed correct sockets in head lights.



The man that owned the car, his father bought it, was not looking for a points car, just one he could drive, keeping as much we could what was on the car when his Dad got it. At the time he was not planing to sell it, something to drive around town.



I know that Tom had a time with the window regulators! I would have to talk to Tom to refresh my memory what other work we did re the engine, transmission and steering box.



Except for maybe engine, is the car safe to drive, yes I would say it is.

[ronn]

if you thought a 400s were rare..............


on the bay


1932 Ford B400 OR 400B

1932 RARE FORD B400 OR 400B CONVERTIBLE SEDAN

[todd3131]

What is sad when boyd Coddington had his show you could see in the background a 400b that was a nice restored car that the took apart and turned into a street rod. I don't normally get to concerned about what people do to their cars but that one did.

[ronn]

todd,


thats what happens when you have too much money............

[todd3131]

Exactly,
There is a guy here that is building a 63 split window Corvette for a client. They started out with a numbers matching barn find they spent 70k on. They took the body off and sold the chassis I know they will have well over 500k in work in it conservatively. They are finishing is for sema competition in the fall if it isn't cancelled.

[HalcyonDays]

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I think the real surprise was the freshly restored A400 selling for $30K, 8/16/21 on BAT. I think that would have been a very fair price for that car.

[redmodelt]

Did a little more checking, the engine was rebuilt by a guy in Molalla Oregon after the car first came up. Tom did also replace the right-hand drive bell housing with a proper left hand one and installed correct pedals.

[ronn]

I think the real surprise was the freshly restored A400 selling for $30K, 8/16/21 on BAT. I think that would have been a very fair price for that car.





shows how weak the mkt is for A's..................

[todd3131]

It is typical the guys in their fifties and early sixties buy what was popular when they were kids. Bandit trans ams fox body mustangs and about any sports car you can think of they are not to interested in a 90 year old restored car. Of all the people in my age group of car guys I'm the only one interested ina restored a and the reason is I grew up with them because of my father. My son wants my roadster but he is also interested in many other cars but he grew up with mine. I saw this with the brass era cars and the a has been floundering for 30 years. Just a fact of life, there are outliers but the days of mainstream are far behind.

[700rpm]

If I could afford $22k for a Model, I could afford to spend what it would take make it a $40k car, or to correct the things that really bother me about it, even if not get to show quality. But since I’m just an ol’ po boy, all I have is my humble Tudor and 54-A.

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by ronn

1932 RARE FORD B400 OR 400B CONVERTIBLE SEDAN

The 400-B is now almost at $100K with less than a day to go, but the reserve isn't met. I think it's a mistake to set the reserve that high without disclosing what it is. People get discouraged.

[ronn]

People get discouraged.



the avg joe isnt buying that car........... try to find another.


the rarity far outweighs all else.

[Jeff/Illinois]

Originally Posted by todd3131

What is sad when boyd Coddington had his show you could see in the background a 400b that was a nice restored car that the took apart and turned into a street rod. I don't normally get to concerned about what people do to their cars but that one did.

Boyd Coddington was a scoundrel. Not an easy person to get along with and filed bankruptcy what, twice?? The guy was a jerk. Didn't like to pay his bills. Treated his help like crap.

I agree with Todd, certain cars should not be screwed around with like they did to THAT car.

[Oldbluoval]

As to Boyd Coddington’s rod…
At one time there was someone making/modifying (sedans?) B400 bodies. Maybe Canada?
I partnered with Superior in making top assemblies for them; I assembled 3 tops.
So not every modified B400 is original steel.
Obviously the one being auctioned is original steel

[todd3131]

Originally Posted by Oldbluoval

As to Boyd Coddington’s rod…
At one time there was someone making/modifying (sedans?) B400 bodies. Maybe Canada?
I partnered with Superior in making top assemblies for them; I assembled 3 tops.
So not every modified B400 is original steel.
Obviously the one being auctioned is original steel

I didn't know that. The one I. The show was original you could see it was a nicley restored car they started with. As for Coddington filing for bankruptcy I invested in Boyds wheels and lost some money when they defaulted fortunately I only had a few shares.

[mercman from oz]

That is one neat looking Model A Ford A400.

[mercman from oz]

The Model A Ford A400 models are great looking old Fords.

[mercman from oz]

This beauty is in Australia, a model that we never got here.

[Joop]

I agree with you Mercman :-))))

[WTSHNN]

Here's another one to watch;
https://www.proxibid.com/1931-Ford-M...ation/63184257

Its one of the rare ones as it doesn't have whitewalls AND the top folds down.

-Tim

[ronn]

and the internet premium is only 23%


what a deal!

[HalcyonDays]

This one sold for $42,000. plus 13% total $47,460.

[mrtexas]

Sold my two As a couple years ago and lucky to find buyers. Bought them thinking I'd "fix" them up. Fixed them up pretty much nut and bolt restoration paint/interior to driver specs not worrying so much about originality. They looked great! What a money mistake.

IMHO the A400 sold for a market price consistent with using it as is. Way too much for one headed for a frame off restoration. Wish I'd learned long ago to find an antique car in the condition I wanted one in without work(even harder to figure out what I wanted). Seems As needing work sell for too much(buyers opinion) and easy to find and really nice As already restored to fine point perfection not enough(sellers opinion) and hard to find like all other antique cars.

I've moved on to later model collectibles not needing work, low miles, and original paint/interior. I'm proud of myself, I passed on a Lotus(Lots of Trouble Usually Serious) with non working air conditioning otherwise in like new condition at a low price, silently repeating don't buy old cars needing work, don't buy old cars needing work, etc. I'm sure the seller knew the astronomical price to fix the AC although he was playing dumb.

Not A related but old car related: just now trying to wrap up the restoration on a 49 Ford wagon hot rod and a 41 Ford wagon flathead. No more restorations after I'm done with these.

By some miracle I bought a Toyota sports car last year and just sold it for $3,500 more than I paid!

[mrtexas]

Better buy IMHO. Still likely bought sight unseen: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...-model-a-a400/

[alexiskai]

It's too bad this site doesn't have a forum where all we do is kibitz on various auctions, that'd be fun.

[Chris in WNC]

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Originally Posted by alexiskai

It's too bad this site doesn't have a forum where all we do is kibitz on various auctions, that'd be fun.

Alexiskai, you can open up a dedicated thread for auction discussions, much like the Aussie poster who started the big "tell a model a related story" thread which seems to have devolved into "tell an aircraft related story"......

[ronn]

texas, your points are well taken. obviously everyone isnt in it for resale only, as you tend to be. thats what keeps this site alive and strong. so many dedicated enthusiasts!


if it were only about $, the hobby would be dead.

[Tom A400]

You are spot on with your comment.