Early V8 Dyno Work

[Pete]

Originally Posted by JWL

Actually an EMC engine could be a VERY good racing engine. To discount the dyno developed engine flies in the face of ALL known engine shops from Nascar to Sprints, to Drags, to boats to planes. There is simply no other reasonable way to develop engine systems that work at the highest level.

Boy is that a crock.
I think I previously said, the dyno comes first, BUT, final tuning ALWAYS comes at the track if you expect to win.
We had the fastest midget in the country for 3 years running in the late 50's and only the first of the 3 engines ever saw a dyno. We never blew one up either.

John, you know you are one of my best friends and you wrote a book about stock and street engines but I don't ever remember you telling me about your USAC circle track or Bonneville experience with flatheads. It is not even in the same galaxy.

Unless someone knows Speedy Spiers or did know Smokey Yunick, I doubt they
have a clue what goes into a real flathead race engine.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by JWL

Actually an EMC engine could be a VERY good racing engine. To discount the dyno developed engine flies in the face of ALL known engine shops from Nascar to Sprints, to Drags, to boats to planes. There is simply no other reasonable way to develop engine systems that work at the highest level.

Agreed. Look at what Ford did in the '60's with the comparatively primitive computerized dynos available then. To get their 427 durable enough to last 24 hours at Le Mans (and beat Ferrari) they came up with a dyno program that replicated a full lap around the circuit. They could duplicate the RPM's, the shift points, rates of acceleration and deceleration, etc. They would run an engine til it blew, then redesign the weak part and try again. Without this dyno testing, they may never have won!

[JWL]

The only "crocs" around here stay pretty close to water. The final, at track, "tuning" of a competition engine amounts to very minor adjustments made to coordinate with current atmospheric conditions. In these cases the "at track" tuning is done to match the power standards established on the dyno. If the "at track" tuning improves the power beyond what the standardized numbers were at the dyno it can only mean the job was poorly done in the dyno room or the atmospheric conditions have changed to a point beyond the SAE standard correction factor. (a very unlikely occurrence)The dyno rooms are operating at full capacity in all the winners' shops.

As for Bonneville I think one of my Bonneville Flathead records remains viable although it is always just a matter of time before someone puts enough time and money into a project to break a record. However the Goldenrod record existed for nearly 50 years, so, who knows? As for USAC, there is more lap time influence provided by the chassis, tires, and driver than any engine tuning.

There was no mention of the Drag Race engines but the most powerful, refined, competition engines can be found at the drag strip. Too, it is the only form of racing which gives a good reading for determining the power of an engine. I have many trophies in both Flathead and non-Flathead classes but I do not see why that would be important to mention in this discussion??

Pete, I usually try to correct and inform you privately when your information is wrong or poorly expressed.

I am reminded of the quote I saw the other day that went something like "do not get too smart to learn". And, I would add, "or think". Yes, I know about the older I get the better I was.

[jmerson]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

That's a pretty mild cam, compared to say a 1007B or 400 jr, These cams I', familiar with in competition, However the best cam was an Erson D410 to bad that one is unavailable right now. Then we could consider the roller cams for the big buck people.. I'm impressed.

What do you think of the 404? That's what i ran back in '54 and it was considered by many to be the top of the line. My current has a 400jr as the tappet bosses had so many holes there wan't room for the holes for the tappet guides. I have a Dyno print out from Panella's dyno in Stockton,CA and the best i could get was 193 at 4900. I can post the print out if you would care to see it?

[frnkeore]

I won't speak for Ron but, I would love to see the print out.

[Bored&Stroked]

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While I love these "dyno debates" - the challenge is that there is never one 100% correct answer. The only answer is "it depends" - as to the degree of applicability of a dyno (and type of dyno) as it applies to the best possible engine tune for any type of track. In many cases the amount of at-track tuning goes beyond just adjustments for weather or atmospheric conditions.

Example: On one of our road-race cars, even though we've spent many thousands of dollars on dyno time (full chassis dyno), we still spend quite a bit of time at the track dealing with things like acceleration pump tip-in and partial throttle condition tuning - depending on the track layout and how well we're coming out of specific corners (and Yes - this has a lot to do with chassis setup, tires, car designs, etc). The speed at which we can carry and come out of a corner has a lot to do with our top-speeds in the straight-aways and overall lap times. We can't effectively mimic these load and traction conditions on a dyno. The overall torque/HP curve information we get from dyno sessions is a valuable tuning aid . . . but there is a lot more we have to do at the track.

Now, with that said, it would not surprise me that some very sophisticated dyno operations can somehow input/utilize simulated true track conditions - and therefore can mimic a lot more actual track conditions. Obviously these types of dyno programs are FAR away from what 95% of racers could ever afford . . . they'd only be available to the totally highest end of the performance industry.

Okay - my 2 cents . . . now back to the never ending dyno debate! LOL

[Pete]

Originally Posted by jmerson

What do you think of the 404? That's what i ran back in '54 and it was considered by many to be the top of the line. My current has a 400jr as the tappet bosses had so many holes there wan't room for the holes for the tappet guides. I have a Dyno print out from Panella's dyno in Stockton,CA and the best i could get was 193 at 4900. I can post the print out if you would care to see it?

The 404 is ancient technology. It was the best we had in the 50's though.
It has become a very popular street cam since lifters have become available in the last few years.

[Ol' Ron]

In my case I never had a dyno to go to in the area we were running. I learned by what worked, I took suggestions from the more experienced racers, if and when they would share. I was lucky that I had a good friend and engine builder that allso built Danbury engines for others. He was from Upstate NY and ran several short tracks there. Mostly dirt. We;re talking late 50's early 60's. Yes I ran a 404 radius lifter cam, it didn't work for me or the car/driver chassis setup. We never found out why. Later i discovered that quite a few cars ran this cam for awhile but switched to other grinds, mostly the 400 jr.
After a few years of learning you find that some guys give you misleading information for their own benefit. When we changed drivers for the last time, we discovered that changing cams was not our problem, and all the horse power in the world won't help a poor handling car or an inept driver.

The best thing that ever happened to our car was the addition of Bob Counio to out team. He was a young engineer that worked for the bullard co as I did . One day I took him out to lunch and dropped of some parts an the garage where our car was. It was the first time he saw a stockcar up close. He turned out to be one of the best chassis man in NASCAR, even won the olympics BOB sled Gold for America for the first time. Just think, if I didn't take him to lunch, we'd never win the gold medal
When Danbury left Flatheads I left racing. but I never left Flatheads. I have one more story of a race bete\wen the 258 vs the 284. Later.

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

In my case I never had a dyno to go to in the area we were running. I learned by what worked, I took suggestions from the more experienced racers, if and when they would share. I was lucky that I had a good friend and engine builder that allso built Danbury engines for others. He was from Upstate NY and ran several short tracks there. Mostly dirt. We;re talking late 50's early 60's. Yes I ran a 404 radius lifter cam, it didn't work for me or the car/driver chassis setup. We never found out why. Later i discovered that quite a few cars ran this cam for awhile but switched to other grinds, mostly the 400 jr.
After a few years of learning you find that some guys give you misleading information for their own benefit. When we changed drivers for the last time, we discovered that changing cams was not our problem, and all the horse power in the world won't help a poor handling car or an inept driver.

The best thing that ever happened to our car was the addition of Bob Counio to out team. He was a young engineer that worked for the bullard co as I did . One day I took him out to lunch and dropped of some parts an the garage where our car was. It was the first time he saw a stockcar up close. He turned out to be one of the best chassis man in NASCAR, even won the olympics BOB sled Gold for America for the first time. Just think, if I didn't take him to lunch, we'd never win the gold medal
When Danbury left Flatheads I left racing. but I never left Flatheads. I have one more story of a race bete\wen the 258 vs the 284. Later.

Ron I just talked to Bob Counio yesterday hes the proud owner of a Flathead I built. Getting ready to fire the monster up. Small world for sure. Hes now getting some of the modern era Flathead experience and knowledge.
Ronnieroadster

[Pete]

"As for USAC, there is more lap time influence provided by the chassis, tires, and driver than any engine tuning."
Very true for a B main car.

"There was no mention of the Drag Race engines but the most powerful, refined, competition engines can be found at the drag strip."
Powerful, yes. Refined, not so much. Naturally aspirated engines are more refined because they don't have the advantage of chemicals (most of the time) and a supercharger.

"I have many trophies in both Flathead and non-Flathead classes but I do not see why that would be important to mention in this discussion??"
It is highly important because it makes you qualified for this discussion.
I only have 2 trophys. One is a piece of paper that says I did 5 years of college. This incidentily was paid for by driving a sprint car for money, not trophys.
The other is a trophy for a national championship.

"Pete, I usually try to correct and inform you privately when your information is wrong or poorly expressed."
Yes, you did once and Ryan probably appreciated that.

And lastly, thanks for your insinuating quotes at the end of your posts. I always get a belly laugh from them.

[Ol' Ron]

I don't have any trophies . I;m glad Cunio is alive and working on a flathead, probably tires of hearing those nASCAR engines. He has a web site on setting uo a chassis, and i'm using it for the track "T" I'm building. Maybe Pete would drive it?? Just a 258 tho. Wish I could see better I'd like to drive it as well. I need a set of Wilcap disks for 37/48 spindles for a reasonable price, so I can stop it One thing everybody forgets, and thst's the guys that try every week to runas fast and better than the leaders, but nobody cares h who comes in second or third or???? we work just as hard, maybe harder, than the guy that wins.