Which is best, fact or fiction ?

[tiger.1000]

The other day I was having a debate with one of my customers; an art teacher.

We were talking about Tom Keating and Shawn Greenhalgh; two notorious but brilliant art fakers who fooled the world.

I was of the opinion that he or she who could copy a work of art that would convince "art experts" was the real genius. She disagreed, being of the opinion that the author of the original was more talented.

There's no doubt that Henry Ford was a genius in more ways than one but wouldn't it be wonderful if this genius could be applied to the production of reproduction motor parts?

The Chinese can now produce a virtually undetectable copy of a Rolex wristwatch; why can't the same process be applied to motor parts? Is it that there are more idiots out there that buy "fools gold" than there are that buy motor parts? Thus demand fuels supply.

Sad really.....

[tiger.1000]

Give you one guess !

[Bored&Stroked]

Demand and therefore price. Also, part of it is our own damn fault . . . so many people allow price to trump quality. So there you have it - my opinion.

[FrankWest]

Impossible to tell. Even brush strokes can be replicated.
Funny story.. I used to repair watches and a lady called me up and wanted me to inspect her boy friends Rolex watch to see if it was real. I asked her, how did you get it?
She said, when her boy friend broke up with her he left the watch behind.
I told her over the phone it was fake..That if the watch was real it would have been the first thing he would have taken.. She was mad!

Did you ever wonder how a jeweler determines if a diamond is real or glass?
He used his jewels loupe..10X or 20 to look for black carbon particles embedded in the stone. There are some perfect diamonds out there but no common person could afford them.

[Barry-ct]

The Chinese produce the quality, or lack of.. in products at the level the sellers want. If it was a perfect reproduction of a part, we'd pay a heck of a lot more for it! Remember the new business motto.... Profit before quality. Stock holders are the #1 priority after profit.

[FrankWest]

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Originally Posted by Barry-ct

The Chinese produce the quality, or lack of.. in products at the level the sellers want. If it was a perfect reproduction of a part, we'd pay a heck of a lot more for it! Remember the new business motto.... Profit before quality. Stock holders are the #1 priority after profit.

Products that superficially look good but really are junk.

[JSeery]

It is not the producer that is the problem, they are capable of producing any level of quality that the vender request. It is the venders specifications that is the issue!

[LOWRIDER]

Originally Posted by JSeery

It is not the producer that is the problem, they are capable of producing any level of quality that the vender request. It is the venders specifications that is the issue!

That's what I've always thought.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by JSeery

It is not the producer that is the problem, they are capable of producing any level of quality that the vender request. It is the venders specifications that is the issue!

I have a plumber friend that never purchases pipe fitting from Home Depot.
He said they must be products that have not passed inspection..that is why they are cheaper? He said he had many problems with leaks, But the same fitting from a plumber supply house always work with no leaks? I buy a lot of stuff from Home Depot because of Convenience. Funny, if you price around often a plumbing supply house is cheaper than Home depot. The only problem is that they are only open Mon thru Friday, 9-5.

[texas webb]

Places like Depot and Lowes etc are able to buy in larger quanity.

[itslow]

Originally Posted by tiger.1000

...I was of the opinion that he or she who could copy a work of art that would convince "art experts" was the real genius. She disagreed, being of the opinion that the author of the original was more talented...

...The Chinese can now produce a virtually undetectable copy of a Rolex wristwatch; why can't the same process be applied to motor parts?...

The original required talent and artistic vision. The copy only requires talent.

The Chinese can produce the same quality of parts as is made here in the US or anywhere else in the world (just like how the US and elsewhere can also produce really crappy quality parts). It's the consumers' desire to pay dirt cheap prices that drives the quality down.

[Karl Wescott]

Form, Function, Provenance, and Price. What is important to you?

Having a part made by a particular person or company at a particular time is provenance. Anything else is a reproduction (made by the same company at a different time, ie if Ford was to build another Model A), or a replica (made by someone else). "Fake" and "Counterfeit" describe misrepresentation on the part of the seller. Too often in any hobby be it cars, watches, or art provenance is a game to drive prices up so the seller can profit. How many "standard" cars got dolled up with parts to change them to a "deluxe" to drive up the price. That sirs, though everything might be original Ford, by intent is a counterfeit! Then when an honest owner comes around and sells it as a dolled up standard it becomes a replica!

Then there are replacement parts. The cars we love are machines. They get used, wear, modified, and damaged. Form and function is all that is important. Quality is all about how well a part functions, and how detailed the form is. And form is subjective. If you do not care about material then a fiberglass fender may be a better choice for you than a replacement steel fender, as long as you do care you will never be fully happy with one, or even prefer a poor shape steel replacement to a correct shape fiberglass. Personal preference.

Yes, there is crossover to provenance with "NOS" parts... and how many of those are misrepresented! Very few "reproduction" parts are actually "reproduction" as that would have to be made by the OEM (or the supplier to the OEM). Arguably Dennis Carpenter has some true reproduction parts where Ford sold him the tooling to make replacement parts from.

All said though, most "restorers" will gripe about poor quality reproduction parts and buy the cheapest!

Remember rule number one. Enjoy your car.

[tiger.1000]

Taken with the same camera but under differing conditions, the two images of perhaps the most famous and iconic painting in the world ARE identical in appearance but differ in painting technique and type of materials used. One was painted at the end of the C15th; the other at the end of the C20th. Both delight the eye. One will meet the approval of the purist. Both are technically brilliant.

One supposedly painted by Leonardo and priceless; the other by a highly competent British old master copyist.

I know which is which.....do you?

CLUE.....don't rely on the frames as the answer !

[terry]

I agree with Mike. I worked in a little sweat shop years ago making the first 4in 1 screwdrivers. They were quite nice but a little costly back in those days...around $5.00. Today I see the same screwdrivers in hardware stores that have been made in China and they are every bit as good and maybe better. And they cost half as much at present day prices. But I seem to fight this idea and look for American made tools at flea markets and yard sales. Terry

[Mark's 37]

Check this Korean manufacturing outfit. Their 427 Ford FE's are selling very well on the FE Forum and are state of the art. Currently getting the Chrysler Hemi 392 ready for production.

http://bearblockmotors.com/about-bbm/

[Bruce Lancaster]

Back to the Mona Lisa...if you give a hoot about the original question, look here:

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/20...-excerpt200905

The theft and return of the painting are factual. The plot described at the end of the story depends on the reporting by one journalist, but is worth the time whether it is true or false...it'll be one of the best yarns you'll ever read either way.

[cas3]

great story!, thanks bruce

[Prawbly]

GREED !! Money is behind everything. Greed and jealousy

[GB SISSON]

I have a really good apprentice in my wood shop. He is capable of excellent work. He is 34 and has been with me since he was 19. It never seems to end that he hears me complaining that I don't make enough money on this or that project. He always wants to just staple parts together because it's so easy or so fast, then I'd show a better profit. Somewhere in the generations there was a shift... I will probably retire broke in a school bus motorhome because I just can't skip the real joints and glue and clamps. I pretty much feel it's a new school/old school thing not an American/Chinese thing....

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

I have a really good apprentice in my wood shop. He is capable of excellent work. He is 34 and has been with me since he was 19. It never seems to end that he hears me complaining that I don't make enough money on this or that project. He always wants to just staple parts together because it's so easy or so fast, then I'd show a better profit. Somewhere in the generations there was a shift... I will probably retire broke in a school bus motorhome because I just can't skip the real joints and glue and clamps. I pretty much feel it's a new school/old school thing not an American/Chinese thing....

Why is he still an "apprentice" after 15 years of training and experience??