Need for early condensers?

[tubman]

I have been working off and on with "Karl" in New Zealand on a replacement condenser for his 1934 Ford. As we all know, he has gotten extremely busy lately, and I don't want to interrupt him or his very important work. (Dealing with the problem of sending parts around the world didn't help either.) I am already working with a member here on a '37-'41 replacement, so this mainly concerns the '32-'36 version.

With the experience my partner and I have gotten with our "trash can" condensers, we figure we can come up with an extremely reliable replacement if the demand is there. I would like to get feedback on several things from the members of the board. First, is there a need for good quality replacement condensers for these cars? Second, at the quantities we produce, we have to get about $50 to justify the labor involved; is this a reasonable price point? Third, when we get into this, it would be nice to have someone close to Minnesota (or at least in the U.S.) to field test these. Lastly, I wonder if someone has a scrap '32-'36 coil they would be able to donate so that we can test for proper fitment. I am an 8BA guy and my partner is not an old car guy, so we are kind of flying blind at this point. A mock-up sure would help.

Thanks in advance for hearing me out. It will be interesting get your responses.

[35fordtn]

Originally Posted by tubman

I have been working off and on with "Karl" in New Zealand on a replacement condenser for his 1934 Ford. As we all know, he has gotten extremely busy lately, and I don't want to interrupt him or his very important work. (Dealing with the problem of sending parts around the world didn't help either.) I am already working with a member here on a '37-'41 replacement, so this mainly concerns the '32-'36 version.

With the experience my partner and I have gotten with our "trash can" condensers, we figure we can come up with an extremely reliable replacement if the demand is there. I would like to get feedback on several things from the members of the board. First, is there a need for good quality replacement condensers for these cars? Second, at the quantities we produce, we have to get about $50 to justify the labor involved; is this a reasonable price point? Third, when we get into this, it would be nice to have someone close to Minnesota (or at least in the U.S.) to field test these. Lastly, I wonder if someone has a scrap '32-'36 coil they would be able to donate so that we can test for proper fitment. I am an 8BA guy and my partner is not an old car guy, so we are kind of flying blind at this point. A mock-up sure would help.

Thanks in advance for hearing me out. It will be interesting get your responses.

I'd gladly donate a coil.. I have a solution for the 32-36 condenser for the last few months that has been serving me well. The 37-41's are of no issue for me to get. However I'd gladly buy yours if you come up with a solution for the 32-36's

What I have been doing for the 32-36's is taking our reproduction Model A condenser (made by standard and high quality), removing the bracket and soldering on a bracket from a original 32-36 condenser

[flatheadmurre]

Tubman if you come up short send me an email.
I found another box of "cores" if you need more...
$50 for a product that looks right works right and comes with a solid warranty is good...if you have to go buy 5 dodgy condensors to find one good...but you don´t know when it fails...that´s gonna cost more in the long run.

[34fordy]

What I have been doing for the 32-36's is taking our reproduction Model A condenser (made by standard and high quality), removing the bracket and soldering on a bracket from a original 32-36 condenser[/QUOTE]

Would the MFD of the Model A condenser be equal to that of the original 32-36?

[tubman]

Michael,

Thanks for your feedback. It's exactly what I was looking for. Since I am not involved with the earlier cars, I really didn't have any idea what was available. It sounds like there is a viable solution, and I don't want to waste anyone's time "re-inventing the wheel". We were originally going to "rebuild" existing condensers by removing the "guts" and replacing them with a better capacitor, but there seems to be a limit on the number of cores available and the old cases are delicate (not to say at least 75 years old) and sometimes disintegrate when we try to disassemble them. There is also a "size vs. capacity" problem; the modern capacitors with the specifications we want are too big to fit in the old cases. The heat from re-soldering them can also pose problems. I will take you up on your offer of a coil as we are flying blind on fitment issues. I'll PM you with the details.

Murre, thanks for the offer; I knew I could count on you, but there's still the cost of shipping. I'll keep you apprised of the situation and will probably take you up on the offer of cores.

[flatheadmurre]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Tubman what you got from me was NOS ford script condensors...so if you can rebuild them you got a points restauration product to sell...not a replacement that just works fine...but also looks perfect...i think there will be a market for it.

[35fordtn]

Tubman,
The model a condenser conversion I am discussing , when installed looks identical to a original the diameter of the condenser is slightly smaller but otherwise looks spot on... However I would buy yours if you had a solution.. The NEW Model A's are .29 Mfd and the originals are .34-.39. For reference the condenser Bubba's myself and everyone uses on the 42-48's are .31 Mfd. Long story short the capacitance of the Model A's is not spot on but they work just fine.

If you are able to rebuild or replicate originals I would love to stock them. If you plan to rebuild originals, cores are plentiful and I likely have at minimum a hundred of them.
PM me your address and I'll send you a little care package.

PS if you are going to get into this, the V-12 condensers would be a need as well, now those cores are hard to find.

[rockfla]

If it helps Tubman
I would be in the market for two to three right off the bat and two more at some point when those restorations hit the shop. The main thing for the first one is that it last "sitting" as it will be on a strictly show car and be sitting a good bit BUT would want to have confidence that when it was "show time" that the condenser was going to be a NON issue and the car NOT show its ass when its time to run!!!!

[Terry,OH]

Ford list all of the V8 era 4Cyl ignition condenser as 0.20 to 0.25 mfd. All the V8, I can find a rating for, are listed as 0.33 to 0.36 mfd. Will the 4 Cyl. work yes for a while but there is about a 30% difference in rating. expect distributor point arcing and shorter life.

[BUBBAS IGNITION]

Originally Posted by Terry,OH

Ford list all of the V8 era 4Cyl ignition condenser as 0.20 to 0.25 mfd. All the V8, I can find a rating for, are listed as 0.33 to 0.36 mfd. Will the 4 Cyl. work yes for a while but there is about a 30% difference in rating. expect distributor point arcing and shorter life.

I agree. You shouldn’t replace. .33-.36mfd unit with a .24mfd Pretty big difference . The issue becomes more of looks rather than actual performance.!!!!

[34fordy]

Originally Posted by BUBBAS IGNITION

I agree. You shouldn’t replace. .33-.36mfd unit with a .24mfd Pretty big difference . The issue becomes more of looks rather than actual performance.!!!!

If you have Skip Haney rebuild your coil, would the mfd requirement stay the same? Or would it just be a crap shoot until you figured out which side of the points was losing or gaining material?

[35fordtn]

Originally Posted by BUBBAS IGNITION

I agree. You shouldn’t replace. .33-.36mfd unit with a .24mfd Pretty big difference . The issue becomes more of looks rather than actual performance.!!!!

Jim,
I presume you use the modern Echlin condensers for the 42-48's. The test nearly identical (.02MFD difference) compared to the NEW Model A's

I've used .31 Mfd condensers on all my 42-48 distributors with zero issues after many thousand miles. I would prefer a .35ish Mfd condenser but until Tubmans involvement that hasn't happened.

[tubman]

Bubba,

I have been pretty seriously into this for the last 4 or 5 years, and haven't see any discernible difference between a low .20's and mid .30's micro-farad condenser on a points ignition. I have never seen any difference in performance and I haven't run any for enough miles( >20,000) to see any difference in point wear. What do you base your statement on? My first prototype had a .047 micro-farad capacitor (it was all I had at the time) and the engine ran perfect. From everything I've experienced, the rating of the condenser (withing reason) has very little effect on the system. It is more important that it is stable and is built robust enough (a high DV/DT rating) to withstand the continuous rapid recycling occurring in an automotive ignition system. I would expect that there is enough variation in coils (caused by age and differences in construction) to make a minor difference in condenser capacitance moot.

Perhaps down the line, I will get a complaint from someone that their points were shot at 25,000 miles, but I haven't seen it yet.

[BUBBAS IGNITION]

[QUOTE=tubman;1866569]Bubba,

I have been pretty seriously into this for the last 4 or 5 years, and haven't see any discernible difference between a low .20's and mid .30's micro-farad condenser on a points ignition. I have never seen any difference in performance and I haven't run any for enough miles( >20,000) to see any difference in point wear. What do you base your statement on? My first prototype had a .047 micro-farad capacitor (it was all I had at the time) and the engine ran perfect. From everything I've experienced, the rating of the condenser (withing reason) has very little effect on the system. It is more important that it is stable and is built robust enough (a high DV/DT rating) to withstand the continuous rapid recycling occurring in an automotive ignition system. I would expect that there is enough variation in coils (caused by age and differences in construction) to make a minor difference in condenser capacitance moot.

I agree your condensors have been very good . However we need to be a little more exact in our testing, i bought and built my 60 engine stand to do exactly that then got sick , i am getting better every day and will get some running engine scope dsiplays showing the effects of a good versus marginal or under over condensor .....
This waveform shows the exact coil action from build up to discharge , this is just a example from my software .......
By the way you can go to www.picotech.com and download their software with out having the scope , select automotive and they have example waveform tech notes etc >>>>

[flatheadmurre]

It´s not like that less cylinders need less capacitance...or something like that...
It´s about rpm and dwell mostly.
Low rpm single cylinder engines have condensors in the .5mF range.
Look at the condensor as a catch tank and the points leaking out spark as they open...lower rpm more time for leakage and you need a bigger condensor to not have it overflow causing points to arc...then you have to drain it back and if you have to much to poor in a to short time...not good either.
dual points depending on if 4 or 8 lobe gives you a better dwell (timespan to charge coil) and then that is also affecting value of condensor.
My guess is that ford on the early engines aimed more for good starting conditions since the coils don´t have a huge reserve then high rpm performance.

[35fordtn]

Originally Posted by tubman

Bubba,

I have been pretty seriously into this for the last 4 or 5 years, and haven't see any discernible difference between a low .20's and mid .30's micro-farad condenser on a points ignition. I have never seen any difference in performance and I haven't run any for enough miles( >20,000) to see any difference in point wear. What do you base your statement on? My first prototype had a .047 micro-farad capacitor (it was all I had at the time) and the engine ran perfect. From everything I've experienced, the rating of the condenser (withing reason) has very little effect on the system. It is more important that it is stable and is built robust enough (a high DV/DT rating) to withstand the continuous rapid recycling occurring in an automotive ignition system. I would expect that there is enough variation in coils (caused by age and differences in construction) to make a minor difference in condenser capacitance moot.

Perhaps down the line, I will get a complaint from someone that their points were shot at 25,000 miles, but I haven't seen it yet.

I just had a distributor in here last week. It was built by bubba's. There were no issues, the customer just wanted me to check and reset the dwell and timing and check the condenser, etc as he had put 18,000 miles on it. All was well with the distributor and it tested well. The LH points had only a small burn mark that I was able to clean and reuse. The condenser tested at .30 Mfd. While Ford may have used a .38 ish condenser, if points are lasting 18,000 miles at .30 with no serious craters then I would have no concerns.

I would be more concerned in a coil. If tubman sent me a .25 condenser I would run it with ZERO worries.

Also I may be thinking wrong, but I would only be concerned with these condensers if a person were not using the proper primary resistance as in too low...

[tubman]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

It´s not like that less cylinders need less capacitance...or something like that...
It´s about rpm and dwell mostly.
Low rpm single cylinder engines have condensers in the .5mF range.
Look at the condenser as a catch tank and the points leaking out spark as they open...lower rpm more time for leakage and you need a bigger condenser to not have it overflow causing points to arc...then you have to drain it back and if you have to much to poor in a to short time...not good either.
dual points depending on if 4 or 8 lobe gives you a better dwell (timespan to charge coil) and then that is also affecting value of condenser.
My guess is that ford on the early engines aimed more for good starting conditions since the coils don´t have a huge reserve then high rpm performance.

Murre,

This makes sense to me. In my "travels" I have been able to obtain a few larger "Trash Can" condensers. They are very similar to the regular Mallory units, but are about 30% larger and have what appears to be stainless steel cases. The top insulated "cap" looks like reddish fibre-board rather than the black plastic (bakelite) used in the regular Mallory's. When I asked on the H.A.M.B., I was told that they were also made by Mallory and were intended for use in trucks and buses. They all tested in the .45-.47 range. Truck and bus engines tend to rev lower than contemporary automobile engines, so this seems to be in line with your statement.

Determining proper condenser capacitance is kind of a "black art". Several things, however, lead me to the conclusion that the exact value is unimportant. First is the fact that over the years I have seen all kinds of odd combinations of condensers hanging off the side of all kinds of distributors on cars that ran just fine. Second, Mallory supplied the same condenser (.36 micro-farads) for years on all of their performance ignition systems; 4, 6, or 8 cylinder, 4 or 8 lobe cam, and conversion plates for stock distributors, and designed to run in all kinds of RPM ranges. Third The fact that I have never heard of anyone having to "tune" a condenser to an ignition system, not even during the "Super Stock Wars". Fourth, my own experience in developing my units.

If anyone as any concrete information pertaining to this, I would sure like to know about it. We are looking for a suitable capacitor in the mid-thirties range that will fit our packaging and have the suitable characteristics required to survive under hard use and bad conditions, but so far no luck.

[JSeery]

There is more to this than protecting the points. The condenser and the coil form an LC circuit.

"The LC circuit produces a damped, oscillating current which bounces energy between the capacitor’s electric field and the ignition coil’s magnetic field. The oscillating current in the coil’s primary produces an oscillating magnetic field in the coil. This extends the high voltage pulse at the output of the secondary windings. This continues beyond the time of the initial field collapse pulse. The oscillation continues until the circuit’s energy is consumed."

These systems (circuits) are designed to meet specific criteria. You can get an ignition system to work with odds and ends components, but that doesn't make it a well designed system. Is it a major concern on an early Ford car? Guess everyone needs to decide where the trade off is between good enough and better. But, these ignitions were originally designed with the better in mind.

[tubman]

That's all well and good Mr. Seery, but I am not aware of any way to quantify it and make judgements on what is good and bad short of analyzing the deposition pattern on the points. The stuff "Bubba" posted is interesting as well, but what's good and what's bad? A quicker rise on the graph? A slower one? A higher peak value. A lower one? There was a discussion on the H.A.M.B. about a year ago about increasing engine performance by making condenser changes. It slowly ground to a halt, because no one seemed to have any definitive knowledge and the general consensus ended up where I am now.

I will still maintain that all other things being equal, and engine will run fine over a large range of capacitances. You may end of paying for it in point life. Or maybe not. I know I'd rather change points every 10,000 miles as they slowly deteriorate rather than have a condenser expire quickly any old time it feels like it.

If any of you electronical geniuses out there can set me straight, I sure would like to know more about it, but as of now, I'm stickin' to my guns.

[JSeery]

That's what engineers are for, if it was simple anyone could and would be doing it! The best reference point is to look at what the factory engineers did. They spent a lot of time, money, effort and smarts developing the original systems. The point was IMO just arbitrarily changing components is not always the best approach.

[flatheadmurre]

Originally Posted by JSeery

There is more to this than protecting the points. The condenser and the coil form an LC circuit.

"The LC circuit produces a damped, oscillating current which bounces energy between the capacitor’s electric field and the ignition coil’s magnetic field. The oscillating current in the coil’s primary produces an oscillating magnetic field in the coil. This extends the high voltage pulse at the output of the secondary windings. This continues beyond the time of the initial field collapse pulse. The oscillation continues until the circuit’s energy is consumed."

These systems (circuits) are designed to meet specific criteria. You can get an ignition system to work with odds and ends components, but that doesn't make it a well designed system. Is it a major concern on an early Ford car? Guess everyone needs to decide where the trade off is between good enough and better. But, these ignitions were originally designed with the better in mind.

What you call bouncing is usually refered to as ringing dealing with transformers and is something we really don´t need or desire...we would like an instant transformation of the magnetic energy to a spark...the ringing eats up some energy since like all systems there is resistance involved here to converting energy to heat.
Think of a breakerless system where there is no condensor just a solidstate part operating like a lightning fast set of points...letting all the magnetic energy in the coil go to the plugs at once...is that a less good performing ignition ?
Main reason the condensor is there is to keep voltage down under the level where glowdisharge starts which turns into arcing.
Condensor has to be large enough to store the energy over the points until the gap is large enough to prevent arcing itself.
Arcing would use up some of the energy stored in the coil and give you a weaker spark.
Is there ringing in the system...of course...but it´s not a goal we designed for it came with the package...

[philipswanson]

Never had a problem with plain old Napa Echelin condensers for my '40 or shoeboxes. Been running them for 50 years! Don't know what all the fuss is about.

[Terry,OH]

I believe this posting started about the early style 33-36 condenser which is not offer by NAPA. One of the posters here is thinking about the need for the early condenser and this posting has morphed into the Spec. of the condensers, since all the V8 condensers prior to the war have the same electrical Spec.

[JSeery]

Agreed, and that would be the spec's I would be looking for in a reproduction.

[rotorwrench]

The coils changed at least 4 times during the evolution of the helmet type distributor production. It's hard to say how many other designs were tried during that period. They were all a bit different and certainly different than the can type coils. The back flow of energy from the collapsing field was what they were trying to control the best they knew how. The amount of back flow energy is what they chose the capacity of the condenser to meet. While other condenser capacities will work, they wanted to tune it to the system for best efficiency or at least as good as they could get it.

Anyone designing a cap to work needs to do the same thing. I always wondered if those guys had an oscilloscope. Those things were just starting to become a tool after 1931 so it was relatively new technology back then.

[tubman]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by JSeery

Agreed, and that would be the spec's I would be looking for in a reproduction.

I am curious what your reason for this would be. This is not to cause any conflict, but to find out what is actually needed and why. These does seem to be a void out there that needs to be filled.

[flatheadmurre]

The design of an ignition system has many variables...and most of us don´t have getting the car started at subzero as one today...
My thinking is aiming for optimum at cruise speed would be just fine.
And i have and can actually measure what happens so not just guessing..
You have to excuse the mess...i call it creative chaos

[rotorwrench]

The scopes will definitely show it. Sun used them on their later automotive engine analyzer sets so a person could verify how it was working in actual operation.

[tubman]

I guess I must be a little dense; Measure what? Show what? I am sure that you guys will get some readings from your impressive electronic gear, but what do you get and what does it mean? What does the scope show? Are there ranges that define acceptable and not acceptable? Can we put some numbers to this? Is there a direct correlation between the number on the scope and material transfer on the points?

I'm not trying to be "smart" here, but from my experience, just about any engine will run just fine with a large range of capacitance values. The variable must be point life. How does the reading on a scope give us an indication of how the material transference will occur and to what extent?

You two gentlemen are among those whose knowledge and opinions I most respect on this board, so please take this for what it is; a sincere quest for relevant information that I can use in further product development.

"Murre" - Simply put, could you put a helmet distributor with a rebuilt "Skip" coil and one of my .22 micro-farad condensers on that very impressive array of equipment you show and be able to tell me that it is X nano-farads short or long? Or just that the pattern "looks good" or doesn't?

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by tubman

I guess I must be a little dense; Measure what? Show what? I am sure that you guys will get some readings from your impressive electronic gear, but what do you get and what does it mean? What does the scope show? Are there ranges that define acceptable and not acceptable? Can we put some numbers to this? Is there a direct correlation between the number on the scope and material transfer on the points?

I'm not trying to be "smart" here, but from my experience, just about any engine will run just fine with a large range of capacitance values. The variable must be point life. How does the reading on a scope give us an indication of how the material transference will occur and to what extent?

You two gentlemen are among those whose knowledge and opinions I most respect on this board, so please take this for what it is; a sincere quest for relevant information that I can use in further product development.

"Murre" - Simply put, could you put a helmet distributor with a rebuilt "Skip" coil and one of my .22 micro-farad condensers on that very impressive array of equipment you show and be able to tell me that it is X nano-farads short or long? Or just that the pattern "looks good" or doesn't?

Ha.....Like the Judge in "My Cousin Vinny" said...…"I'd like to know the answer to that one, too!" DD

[35fordtn]

In my opinion there is not a base line sample for a scope test. We used a snap on scope when I work at the GM dealer, but every car was the same. Nowadays we run different compression ratios spark plugs skip coil, vs original coil , etc etc etc. sure the graphs are neat to see the coil charge and discharge and the burn rates, but that’s just it, it’s neat to see. We have nothing relavant to compare to.

For example Jim plans to use a 60hp for these tests. It will have a different burn rate that a 85, however the coil charge and discharge should be the same.

[tubman]

Michael, I still need a distributor/coil, I'm just waiting to get back to you until this thread runs it's course. I'm kinda hoping someone can put some definite numbers on this.

[Terry,OH]

For the electrical Tech.:
https://sites.fas.harvard.edu/~scphy...E1b/E1b_3b.pdf

[tubman]

Excellent read, Terry. Two things have become apparent to me. The first is that the capacitance in the circuit is a function of the characteristics of the coil, while the second is that an ideal capacitance can be calculated, given one can know (or calculate) several esoteric characteristics of said coil. Therefore, it appears to me that unless all coils are made identically, each individual type would be optimally served by it's own special capacitance level. In theory, this would be an expensive and time consuming exercise, meaning that most commercially available condensers are a compromise to be able to serve in a variety of situations. It appears we are fortunate that ignitions will operate over a wide variety of capacitances. I find it interesting that the cited tome concentrates on maximum voltages, with no mention of material transference or point wear. I have no knowledge of how maximum voltage relates to this, but would not be surprised that the two might be directly related, requiring further compromise in the practical ideal capacitance in the circuit, to balance point life and performance.

At this time, I am not able to to do the required research to come up with the desired capacitance for the condensers I build. What I have to do is rely on the work done by the multitudes of ignition component manufacturers out there. Just about every commercially available condenser today is in the mid .20 micro-farad range. I have to believe this is because the engineers at those companies have done the required work with the resonance characteristics of currently available coils and have settled on this, which is good enough for me. While it may seem to leave the old Ford coil group out in the cold, I believe that there is enough tolerance in the resonance characteristics of the systems to tolerate the slight difference in capacitance that is more than overcome by the reliability of the current unit.

Earlier in this thread, a member posed the question of whether a "Skip's Coil" would require the older higher capacitance condenser or would be better with the lower value. This is a good question. Does he just rewind the coils using original type materials to the original specs or has he incorporated some modern technology into his process? If the latter, the newer, lower capacitance condensers may be a better choice. Too bad (for us) he doesn't get involved with these boards. It would be interesting to hear what he has to say.

I am still looking for a mid-30's micro-farad capacitor for you early Ford guys, but I haven't found an acceptable candidate yet.

[rotorwrench]

Originally Posted by 35fordtn

In my opinion there is not a base line sample for a scope test. We used a snap on scope when I work at the GM dealer, but every car was the same.

The check runs of any automotive ignition systems that are designed to peak efficiency will all look about the same on a scope unless something is wrong. It only takes a quick check to see if all is well or no.

Peak voltages will vary with coil winding ratio differences.

The educational study link describes it all and a basic way to calculate a capacitor value for any individual coil design. A person can try the two most prevalent values Ford used on an existing early Ford system and see what the difference might be. Even though Skip rebuilds the coils with his own materials, I would imaging that he still uses the same number of turns of the two windings as Ford designed them to have. The insulating material shouldn't effect any noticeable change in the induction process.

Modern equipment use gets away from the old cathode ray tube type scopes and uses more of a lap top technology. The peak spike voltage shows the start of the ignition event and the burn shows the actual energy release at the spark plug and tells you how the capacitor does its job by the length of burn and how stable it is. This link explains it somewhat. https://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/...g-diagnostics/ Even the oscillation pattern at the end has some meaning as to the function of the capacitor in the circuit.

Since scopes weren't in common use back then, a person has to set up their own baseline depending on what they have to work with. The engine should have good compression or at least consistent compression readings between cylinders and components in good working order.

[35fordtn]

Originally Posted by tubman

Michael, I still need a distributor/coil, I'm just waiting to get back to you until this thread runs it's course. I'm kinda hoping someone can put some definite numbers on this.

You say when and I'll send whatever you need. I am sure we will all (especially me) learn something new by the end of this.

[34fordy]

[QUOTE=

Even though Skip rebuilds the coils with his own materials, I would imaging that he still uses the same number of turns of the two windings as Ford designed them to have. The insulating material shouldn't effect any noticeable change in the induction process.[/QUOTE]

I have a Skip rebuilt Ford coil that I have never mounted that I keep for a spare. I also have 3 other coils, 2 that are used and presumed good, and 1 older USA that is NOS. I have a Perry-Davis condenser/coil tester. I wonder if the PD tester would show any difference between these various coils and if so what would it mean? If anything?

[34fordy]

[QUOTE=tubman;

I am still looking for a mid-30's micro-farad capacitor for you early Ford guys, but I haven't found an acceptable candidate yet.[/QUOTE]

Does this mean you are looking for a supplier of an appropriate capacitor that will fit into your "Trash Can"? Or is it that the materials to build the mid .30's capacitor are not available?

[rotorwrench]

Modern materials for capacitors are superior to what was used in the 1930s. A lot of the really old stuff has likely deteriorated by now. It's basically the microfarad value that is important. Early ones had a bit higher value than the later ones after the war. Ford went back to the can type coils in the 8BA era. If the old original coils still work, they should work as well as Skips rebuilds unless they have gone bad for one reason or another. Skip's will last longer due to better materials but the function should be the same unless he changed the internal design.

[BUBBAS IGNITION]

I love and use skips coils and suggest we all do .

I dont believe skips rewinds anything , i feel as if he has sourced a good coil winding and bobbin , cleans up the old coil (throws the windings and laminate away) and inserts his known good new one ......

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

Modern materials for capacitors are superior to what was used in the 1930s. A lot of the really old stuff has likely deteriorated by now. It's basically the microfarad value that is important. Early ones had a bit higher value than the later ones after the war. Ford went back to the can type coils in the 8BA era. If the old original coils still work, they should work as well as Skips rebuilds unless they have gone bad for one reason or another. Skip's will last longer due to better materials but the function should be the same unless he changed the internal design.

The original early Ford coils, from say '32 to '48, were wound with inferior insulation on the magnet wire as compared to insulated magnet wires available today. Even the pouring resins, or other potting compound's were inferior to the material available and used today. If I had an NOS '32 to '48 coil that I wanted to use on my car, I would have it rebuilt using modern insulating materials. Actually, I wouldn't go much beyond the end of my driveway without a coil being built with modern insulations, and I use Skip Haney to rewind/rebuild my coils because I've personally seen his operation, and he's the best I know of at what he does.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by 34fordy

Does this mean you are looking for a supplier of an appropriate capacitor that will fit into your "Trash Can"? Or is it that the materials to build the mid .30's capacitor are not available?

A capacitor with the values I would like to have do not fit in my "trash can" case, much less a case that would fit into a '33-'36 distributor/coil (or a '37-'41 for that matter).

As to "materials to build the mid .30's capacitor", it is impractical (and probably impossible) to make a better capacitor than is commercially available. I definitely would not attempt it.

It is interesting that several have speculated about how "Skip" may or may not do his coils. It is informative that even the most knowledgeable among us use the terms "imagine" and "unless he changed" when referencing his work. I have never considered what "Bubba" suggests, but now that he has, it makes perfect sense. It would be interesting to know. I would expect he has a much better insight on this that the rest of us.

Anyway, until one of my condensers fail or someone complains about excessive pitting on their points after X,000 miles, I'm gonna "keep on keepin' on".

[Tinker]

I've have not used your condenser yet tubby. Was hoping you would send me one to try out. I'm "limpin'" around with a napa ih200. It took 3 to find a decent one. 3 of them probably 15$ over one of yours.


Coils to condensers or apples and oranges. Skip is the man.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by tubman

I have been working off and on with "Karl" in New Zealand on a replacement condenser for his 1934 Ford. As we all know, he has gotten extremely busy lately, and I don't want to interrupt him or his very important work. (Dealing with the problem of sending parts around the world didn't help either.) .........

Still here - You guys are my salvation.


I hope to get some miles on the V8 soon and to try the new condensor out .
The issue with the first one I tried was that the screw in end was a little weak.

I find it easiest to install the condenser by removing the coil and installing the condenser and then refitting the combination to the distributor Because the condenser is screwed to the coil and you have to jiggle things a little to bolt the tab to the distributor bolt you can break the screw end of the condenser as I did.

I tested it before installing at 220 nanofarads and when i had the miss I felt that perhaps this was a little low for the helmet as people talk about 330 nanofarads being ideal but i suspect it was the damage i did to the screw end that was the problem.

Certainly having brought heaps of NOS condensers I can testify that they are all garbage - We need a long term solution -Karl