Oil Change

[MrWzrd]

Decided to change the oil in the A last night so I dropped by here to see what the favorites were on oil and found the same two camps set up that I have found on all of the other old car forums. Detergent or non detergent. (I was only checking to see if there was any brand that worked best with the motor in the A)

I have to toss in one rule of thumb I have learned over the decades and many engine overhauls.

If it has an oil filter use detergent oil, if it does no not have an oil filter, use non-detergent oil.

Detergent oils are designed to suspend the particles of crud so it can be filtered out by the oil filter. Non detergent oil will not keep the particles in suspension and will allow them to settle to the bottom of the pan and stay out of the friction points of the engine. In other words, gravity is your filter with non detergent oil. (it's also why the short oil change interval. You want to get the stuff out before it turns to sludge)

For an oil change, there is no advantage, other that viscosity, to warming detergent oil, but non detergent oil should be warmed so it can better carry the particles on the bottom of the pan out with it..... and... on non-detergent oils they should be changed frequently so, as stated before, sludge does not build up to the point that it is not removed during an oil change. (This means TIME as well as mileage. )

Anyway....my two cents. (did you ever wonder why it's your 2 cents worth but only a penny for you thoughts? What is the other penny all about??)

[Mitch//pa]

lol

[Kurt in NJ]

I have always used detergent oil, do not have a filter, sometimes I have used "used" oil too (last "used" oil change was with oil that had been used for 20 min)

The particles that detergent oil keeps in suspension mostly don't get caught in a filter---why do you think oil gets black, if the filter could catch them the oil would stay clesn---if you cut apart a spin on filter and let it drain the filter media still looks like paper --not black like the oil---actually the average spin on full flow filter isn't good at the really small particles, they are a compromise to allow the oil to flow through only catching 40% or so of the 2-10 micron debris , if you want to remove the really small things you need a bypass filter that will remove 90%+ of the 2 micron things.

Many of the engines that I have taken apart that used plain oil have acid pitting, holes in the dipper trays, pitting on the crankshaft, camshaft

I like a good quality diesel oil, it has more additives for coping with dirty running engines-(non computer )-better acid and particulate control.

No matter what oil you use it is important to get it hot, starting and letting it run for 10 min every week does no good for the engine, a thermostat helps keep the oil cleaner, it heats the engine quicker to evaporate condensation minimizing the formation of acids.

[jhowes]

My experience with used oil was an economical issue. In the early 50's my dad had a straight eight pontiac . When he changed oil it went into my model A which I ran the He-- out of and it never quit. The roads were dirt at that time that I ran on without a licience.

[marc hildebrant]

Sorry, but the stated rule on when to use detergent oil (oil filter) or non-detergent oil just doen't make sense.

Marc

[Patrick L.]

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Its my opinion to warm the oil before drainage, any oil. I only would use non-detergent oil in an oil squirt can.

[jkeesey]

I use oil. It usually comes in some sort of container. I have found it hard to run 4.5 quarts home from the store without it.

[Terry,NJ]

I've interjected my comments before, so here goes again. I recently "Refreshed' an engine that was worn out. Bearings were out to specs maximum. without going through the whole story, it was worn but not blown. Eventually, I got down to the oil pump and what I saw shocked me. The screen was almost 100% blocked with sludge (along with the oil pan and valve chamber. The question is why didn't it blow? Perhaps the dipper system saved it, I don't know. Probably the previous owner thought as many do, that they can control sludge with non detergent oil (Yeah, if you like sludge and want to build up some more of it in your engine) Me, I'm convinced! Nothing but detergent oil goes in my engine! Henry would have used it if he had it! And Remeber, The best oil of 1930 isn't as good as the worst oils of today!
Terry

[Randy in Illinois]

MrWzrd, I'm in your camp with use of oil, as a long time auto mechanic and certified car nut even longer. ( the other penny is for tax) lol

[Big John]

straight 30 weight....non detergent as intended by instruction book....

[Mike V. Florida]

ANY automotive oil will work just fine. Any specifications of brand or type is just personal preference.

[Fred K-OR]

My two cents worth is I use detergent oil because both of my rigs has fairly "fresh" engines. But I do use different weights of oils depending on the time of year. For example here in Oregon the temp ranges between teens to 100 or a little more. So I may use 10-30 in winter and maybe 10 or 20-40 in summer.

Have to add a stupid comment but do people know what 10-30 or 20-40 mean? Just to explain what I consider them to mean is that for example if you use 10-30, when you start your engine and it is cold, it would act like just a 10 weight oil and then when it warms up, it would be more like a 40 weight oil. Thus the reason I mentioned you need to consider the time of year it is and where you live.

Maybe I am all wet about this comment about oil weight so go ahead and throw oil at me!

[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by Fred K-OR

My two cents worth is I use detergent oil because both of my rigs has fairly "fresh" engines. But I do use different weights of oils depending on the time of year. For example here in Oregon the temp ranges between teens to 100 or a little more. So I may use 10-30 in winter and maybe 10 or 20-40 in summer.

Have to add a stupid comment but do people know what 10-30 or 20-40 mean? Just to explain what I consider them to mean is that for example if you use 10-30, when you start your engine and it is cold, it would act like just a 10 weight oil and then when it warms up, it would be more like a 40 weight oil. Thus the reason I mentioned you need to consider the time of year it is and where you live.

Maybe I am all wet about this comment about oil weight so go ahead and throw oil at me!

I did my college paper on oils. Example, 10W-30. Simply and basically, The oil flows as a 10 weight but has the film strength of a 30 weight. Some think that these oils get thicker as they warm. They don't, they still thin a bit as they warm but as long as the film strength stays at 30 is what matters.

[Fred K-OR]

Thanks Patrick. This is good to know rather than my guess as to what it means.

But would it still make sense to use 10-30 in winter and 10-40 in summer????
And also if your engine is "fresh", then the 10-xx would be best while a 20-xx would be better for an older used engine???? Opinion please.

[Brother Hesekiel]

Talking about engine oil is like talking about religion. I have read more about engine oil than I can remember, but if you have an hour time, here's the best article I have ever read. And, no, if you haven't read this, you can't possibly know this, unless you hold a Ph.D. in chemical engineering and own collector cars worth $20,000,000 or more.

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles

[Art Bjornestad]

I have been using diesel grade 15-40 Chevron Dello for some years now. It's available at Costco and diesel oils have a high zinc content.

[Allanw]

Originally Posted by Brother Hesekiel

Talking about engine oil is like talking about religion. I have read more about engine oil than I can remember, but if you have an hour time, here's the best article I have ever read. And, no, if you haven't read this, you can't possibly know this, unless you hold a Ph.D. in chemical engineering and own collector cars worth $20,000,000 or more.

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles

That is a great article! It explains the things that people don't get.

Anybody who insists on 30 weight certainly needs to read it.

[Fred K-OR]

Originally Posted by Brother Hesekiel

Talking about engine oil is like talking about religion. I have read more about engine oil than I can remember, but if you have an hour time, here's the best article I have ever read. And, no, if you haven't read this, you can't possibly know this, unless you hold a Ph.D. in chemical engineering and own collector cars worth $20,000,000 or more.

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles

Sorry Brother Hesekiel but I am still confused. Yes this was a great article but for a poor old guy like me that only understood maybe a very small part of it, could you give me a little more guidance.

From what I read, for a normal Model A that most of us drive, after getting it started, the all oil heats up to a temp, if I read it correctly was 212 F or there about. So the consideration is to get an oil that will be fluid enough to lubricate the engine on start up until it heats up to operating temp.
So the next question is what weight? In cold weather is it a 10-30 or ??? And in warm weather 20-40 or maybe then you could just use a 30 weight???

As you can see, sorry but I am still confused about what to use. And in my situation I have fairly fresh engines so I want to use just the old type detergent oil. Again if you don't mine, please help me out as to what weight oil.

Thanks

[Mitch//pa]

fred dont get lost up in the oil jungle. what you are doing now is just fine

[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by Fred K-OR

Sorry Brother Hesekiel but I am still confused. Yes this was a great article but for a poor old guy like me that only understood maybe a very small part of it, could you give me a little more guidance.

From what I read, for a normal Model A that most of us drive, after getting it started, the all oil heats up to a temp, if I read it correctly was 212 F or there about. So the consideration is to get an oil that will be fluid enough to lubricate the engine on start up until it heats up to operating temp.
So the next question is what weight? In cold weather is it a 10-30 or ??? And in warm weather 20-40 or maybe then you could just use a 30 weight???

As you can see, sorry but I am still confused about what to use. And in my situation I have fairly fresh engines so I want to use just the old type detergent oil. Again if you don't mine, please help me out as to what weight oil.

Thanks

Yup, I agree. Don't get too worked up over this or loose any sleep. I'm sure things/theories/facts have changed since I studied this back in the dark ages [ early days of multi-weights]. Dr Haas has written a good simple article,but, I don't agree with everything he has written, but, it just may be the way he wrote it. Its still a good article.
His article states that Ferrari wants the oil to be 10 weight[grade] at operating temps. OK, who is anyone to dispute what that prestigious manufacturer wants.
An engine does experience its greatest wear when it isn't being fully lubed, in most conditions that is upon startup.
I doubt our engines ever or rarely get to boiling [212F], at least they shouldn't. So if we want a 10 weight oil at our operating temps that means we need a pretty light oil. Most of us are pretty hesitant about that. And in real life, most engines lead a pretty easy life today so as long as one uses a good quality clean oil and takes it easy upon and right after startup you'll be fine and the engine should live a long life. The engine oil will start to warm quite quickly, the oil pump should do its job almost immediately. If the engine doesn't knock, there is an oil cushion.
What oil do you feel comfortable with ? It should be fine as long you don't use the old used car dealer trick of filling it with gear oil. About the only real recommendation I would make is to use a detergent oil and have the engine warm when you change it.
There is world of difference in the science and thoughts about oil since these old monsters were made.