Wishbone question

[JayJay]

All: A new one for me.

I disassembled the front suspension on my '30 TS in preparation for cleaning, painting and rehab. When I removed the spring perches I noticed that the distance between the eyes of the wishbone is about 3/4" wider than the distance between the mounting holes in the axle. I don't anticipate any particular issue with reassembling (we love ratchet straps!) but I wonder: is this normal and/or acceptable, or has the wishbone been "sprung"? I can't see any indication that the wishbone has any damage, but the axle is bent like it has been hit at one point or another (gonna find a good axle). And two leaves of the spring are broken, so I need to deal with that.

If reasonable I'd like to re-use this wishbone as the radius ball is in pretty decent shape.

On a separate but related note: I recall several years ago that there were replacement radius balls available, I think that there were tabs to weld onto the wishbone. Don't see them out there any more. Am I imagining things?

Thanks.

JayJay

[Synchro909]

Interesting! Perhaps when the ball was replaced, the shrinking of metal around the weld caused the "arms" of the wishbone to open up. I think that is a real possibility.

[Joe K]

On a separate but related note: I recall several years ago that there were replacement radius balls available, I think that there were tabs to weld onto the wishbone. Don't see them out there any more. Am I imaging things?

Out there. Berts has the ball with the "tabs" (apparently designed to "straddle" the later T-shaped radius rod center.)

I have seen "weld on" balls similar to the drag-link balls.

I have seen "rings" that you turn down the ball stud and then weld on the ring.

I have seen the entire center portion of the wishbone available for those trying to "revert" a split wishbone.

I have seen those who weld "build up" the existing ball and grinding using a gauge made of a piece of aluminum flashing.

And they still sell the piece of metal "dished" to build up the ball cap.

I'm not sure the "spring" you're finding on disassembly is an item of concern. One side of the wishbone might have gotten "clobbered" from something on the road. And the actual alignment is taken from the axle beam itself. Cue in my pix of the Model T front axle "alignment test."

Joe K

[Bob C]

Here you go. https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/s...cht=A-3405-RK2

[rotorwrench]

With a shared distance of 3/8" per side, it's not too far off to be made to fit. Just make sure that both legs of the unit are still relatively straight with no obvious dents or malformation that could be from a rough service history or wreck damage. The perch pin tapered seat yokes should also still be close to a slip fit where the axle perch bosses fit in. Most of these old model As had a lot more years in service than a lot of more modern cars ever would have stood up to.

I've seen some very well worn units along with pretzel looking axles that folks had still been driving on.

[JayJay]

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Thanks, all. That's the replacement ball I remembered. Don't know why I couldn't find it in Snyder's catalog, senior moment maybe.

Photo of the wishbone displacement attached. The hole diameter is a bit less than 3/4", and the displacement is about half the diameter. So a total displacement of ~3/8", or 3/16" each side. I have no doubt that when reinstalling I can close that gap properly. And in looking at the wishbone more closely, I can see that one side is dead straight and the other side bows in very slightly (maybe 1/4" max). No signs of any trauma to the assembly, so maybe it was originally assembled that way. I may be able to find a press and straighten that leg out.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Not sure what your capabilities are, but buy a 1.500" ball from McMaster Carr ( https://www.mcmaster.com/9528K64/ ) and drill a 37/64th hole thru the ball. Then tap the hole to ⅝-24. I set the wishbone onto the front of my mill and machined the ball & stem down to 0.625" where I can thread the stem. Then thread the ball onto the stem and use threadlocker to keep the ball from moving. I am still working out the procedures on this operation but this does a clean repair that will last for another century at least.

[WHN]

Originally Posted by JayJay

All: A new one for me.

I disassembled the front suspension on my '30 TS in preparation for cleaning, painting and rehab. When I removed the spring perches I noticed that the distance between the eyes of the wishbone is about 3/4" wider than the distance between the mounting holes in the axle. I don't anticipate any particular issue with reassembling (we love ratchet straps!) but I wonder: is this normal and/or acceptable, or has the wishbone been "sprung"? I can't see any indication that the wishbone has any damage, but the axle is bent like it has been hit at one point or another (gonna find a good axle). And two leaves of the spring are broken, so I need to deal with that.

If reasonable I'd like to re-use this wishbone as the radius ball is in pretty decent shape.

On a separate but related note: I recall several years ago that there were replacement radius balls available, I think that there were tabs to weld onto the wishbone. Don't see them out there any more. Am I imagining things?

Thanks.

JayJay

Fine a new axel that is not bent.

I had a wish bone that did the same thing.

I had the axel straighten, everything fit fine.

Enjoy.

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Not sure what your capabilities are, but buy a 1.500" ball from McMaster Carr ( https://www.mcmaster.com/9528K64/ ) and drill a 37/64th hole thru the ball. Then tap the hole to ⅝-24. I set the wishbone onto the front of my mill and machined the ball & stem down to 0.625" where I can thread the stem. Then thread the ball onto the stem and use threadlocker to keep the ball from moving. I am still working out the procedures on this operation but this does a clean repair that will last for another century at least.

Thanks, Brent, I was thinking along these lines, sounds good. I have a small mill and could likely do this. Does the McMaster ball drill with standard high speed steel drill bits or do you need carbide bits (which I don't have)?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by JayJay

Thanks, Brent, I was thinking along these lines, sounds good. I have a small mill and could likely do this. Does the McMaster ball drill with standard high speed steel drill bits or do you need carbide bits (which I don't have)?

I have never drilled one with HSS since I do have Carbide but likely a mild steel ball could be used and drilled with what you have.

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I have never drilled one with HSS since I do have Carbide but likely a mild steel ball could be used and drilled with what you have.

Thanks. The McMaster catalog lists the ball you suggested as Rc 60, I suspect I'd burn up a lot of HSS drills on that.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by JayJay

Thanks. The McMaster catalog lists the ball you suggested as Rc 60, I suspect I'd burn up a lot of HSS drills on that.

Go cobalt in your selected size AND go slow with coolant.

I recently burned up a couple of HHS drills in a three speed drill press trying to drill the 1/2" hole required for the "steering arm tie rod ball replacement."

Those arms are some tough stuff - Ford quality.

So I swapped to Carbide using the same drill press. The burn-up was FASTER - carbide is "brittle" and "thermal."

So I've now purchased a LARGER drill press which will go down to 167 RPM on a double reduction.

And bought a set of drills in cobalt. Not that much more expensive than a quality HSS set.

Joe K

[Pete]

...

[Phil Brown]

Originally Posted by Pete

...

That is an interesting setup

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by Phil Brown

That is an interesting setup

Its the setup Henry WISHED he had - and later did - although the undercarriage geometry had changed a bit by then.

The change above does violate Ford's pretty cardinal rule of "backfitting." I.e. all subsequent changes HAD to be able to be applied back to beginning of Model without underlying modification to the model basic design. But by then the basic model design had changed anyway.

Question of the later design is did the geometry change drive the development of sealed tie-rod ends - or visa versa - did the development of sealed tie rod ends ALLOW the geometry change.

A question for the HAMB board.

Joe K

[CT Jack]

This a guess on my part but just thinking about how the wish bone was fabricated originally.
The wish bone is a weldment consisting of several forged details. The main tubes appear to be rolled and seam welded along their axis. All the components were probably placed into a fixture and then welded. The end result would produce some level of stressing within the assembly. This could cause a small amount of noticible distortion once the assembly was removed from it's fixture. Post heat treatment would reduce the welding stresses and minimize the distortion. This last step requires additional time which I am certain Ford did not want to add to the cost to manufacture.
If you are able to assemble using strapping I would not be concerned.

[Model "A" Fords]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Not sure what your capabilities are, but buy a 1.500" ball from McMaster Carr ( https://www.mcmaster.com/9528K64/ ) and drill a 37/64th hole thru the ball. Then tap the hole to ⅝-24. I set the wishbone onto the front of my mill and machined the ball & stem down to 0.625" where I can thread the stem. Then thread the ball onto the stem and use threadlocker to keep the ball from moving. I am still working out the procedures on this operation but this does a clean repair that will last for another century at least.

This is an excellent repair method, Brent!
I would assume if you threaded it, that the center was not hard, only the surface was 60RC.
I often use a carbide tipped masonry drill for hardened tooling. With a little hand grinding they can be made to work well for little cost.

McMaster Carr also has a 304 stainless steel ball 9291K67 that is only 25RC and is easier to drill. No need for carbide.

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by Model "A" Fords

This is an excellent repair method, Brent!
I would assume if you threaded it, that the center was not hard, only the surface was 60RC.
I often use a carbide tipped masonry drill for hardened tooling. With a little hand grinding they can be made to work well for little cost.

McMaster Carr also has a 304 stainless steel ball 9291K67 that is only 25RC and is easier to drill. No need for carbide.

Another way, which I might try, would be to use a carbide end mill to push through the surface hardening, then drill the rest of the way. I often use an end mill to create a flat spot on a curved surface prior to drilling to make sure the drill does not wander. This only works if you can clamp the work securely, as in a vertical mill.

Thanks, MAF, for finding that stainless steel ball. That's another option although if you wanted to weld the ball to the yolk, rather than thread it, that would complicate things.

I wonder if you could combine these two techniques by modifying the mild steel repair balls stocked by the suppliers - cut off the tangs and then thread it? Hmm... $100 for the vendor-supplied repair ball vs. $33 for the stainless ball vs. $8.50 for the hard steel ball???

[Bob C]

Brent, any chance of posting a picture of how you fixture the wishbone
to the mill?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Bob C

Brent, any chance of posting a picture of how you fixture the wishbone
to the mill?

I can if I took any pictures. I will look later today. In the interim, I can walk you thru it first, and maybe mock one up to take some pix.

I have a large 90° Angle plate that is probably 10" x 10" x 10". Clamp it to the front edge of the mill bed and then I moved it rearward by less than an inch if I recall correctly. This is because the stem of the ball is on something like an 8° angle to the centerline of the Radius Rods. When you have it pretty close, clamp the yoke at the top to the angle plate, and then use toe-clamps on the forward edge of the mill table to steady the legs of the Radius Rod (-Wishbone) to the Mill. Each leg of the Radius Rod straddled the knee of the mill. Then just use a boring head to machine the ball off of the stem. Follow-up by threading the stem and you are set.