modernize my 31 A

[dew the 31 tudor]

what is the best way to add electronic igition to my 31 A ?

[Logan]

Call up FS ignitions and talk to them. Google them, and you will find the website. They are the best in the game with electronic ignitions, and they have many different options to choose from. I have had one in my car for two years without a problem, and my brother has had one for about a year without a problem. Someone on this forum will most likely try to talk you out of getting one, but they are a really nice set up and reliable. I would recommend it to anyone.

[Steve Wastler]

John LaVoy may have some good insight into Elec. ignitions for A's

[1931 flamingo]

Do a search here and read the pros and cons. Most important point with any of them is a good ground. Also it's probably advisable to buy 2, and carry the spare with you. JMO
Paul in CT

[Milton]

Originally Posted by dew the 31 tudor

what is the best way to add electronic igition to my 31 A ?

That all depends on what you want. 6 or 12v, complete dist or module, manual or centrifugal advance?

[glenn in camino]

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Leave it in the box. The stock distributor works just fine.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by glenn in camino

Leave it in the box. The stock distributor works just fine.

Spend the money on gas instead!

[George Miller]

My Model A has points for over 80 years they work great.

[Frank Miller]

For what it is worth. I would suggest running an alternator as you can get errant voltage spikes on a generator that will fry the unit. If you are going to convert to an alternator you might want to consider 12 volts. This is in case you plan to run any accessories.

I assume you have made your argument for installing an electronic unit. They work better and require less maintenance. The only downside is you cannot repair them with a screwdriver and a nail file.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

The biggest downside a few years ago was finding distributor cams that were quality enough to allow a points-equipped distributor to provide the same amount of spark and precise timing. Now Bill Stipe has made a cam that allows for more dwell time (stronger coil saturation which equals hotter spark) and more precisely ground cam lobes (more equal timing between all four cylinders) which has greatly equaled the playing field in my opinion. Couple that with a modern coil along with a top quality set of modern points & condensor, and both types of systems are pretty equally yoked in my opinion. What I have found is that may folks have tried to use an electronic set-up to mask issues such as a distributor that is in poor condition (worn plates and loose bushings). Regardless of which direction you choose, take the time to rebuild the distributor so you have a good foundation to work off of.


Oh, ...and Frank my friend, are you sure about all of that regarding alternators and how the electronic works better?? Not so sure I can 'buy-into' those thoughts of yours.
.

[jerry shook]

Put the fs ing and a high comp head on. And if you really wont power put the 2 barrel carb on. That is if you wont to drive with the rest of the traffic. And enjoy your a . I know a lot people disagree with me,and that ok. We all love our a and have different openions,

[Tom Wesenberg]

The idea of changing the ignition to modern is pointless!! PUN intended

My stock ignition with the slant pole coil, original points, and generator puts out more spark than the plugs need. If the plugs don't miss under the most adverse conditions, such as hill climing, what's to be gained by increasing the spark, which pointless ignition may or may NOT do.

Keeping lube on the points cam and checking the gap every 3 to 5 thousand miles is just part of the fun of maintaining an antique car. Modern cars are more maintainence free, but they are also more of a throwaway automobile.

[John LaVoy]

We installed one in the sedan in 2008. It now has about 15,000 miles on it and is working great. We ordered one for the roadster pickup build that we will be installing once we get the body back from the paint shop. The folks at FS are good to deal with and make a great product.

[Seth Swoboda]

Buy a pertronix ignition and bolt it in......it's that easy. And works BETTER than a points system any day of the week. There are a ton of nay sayers on here that cry about electronic ignition systems but I have never had a problem with one. Most likely operator error & just too stubborn to change.

I have installed and ran the pertronix ignition in the following:
1. 1931 Model A Victoria
2. 1967 mustang coupe (289 engine)
3. 1939 ford pickup (59AB engine)
4. (2) John Deere 3020 gas tractors

[jan bogert]

i ran an F&S on my '31 coupe, also weber alum. intake with a two barrel weber carb, reds header two outlet with dual exhaust, and a t5 5speed trans. still a model a with todays upgrades. i installed the motor in my nieghbors '29 sedan. he bought it and loves it. now i up graded to a flathead. its still a model a with up grades JAN.

[HoarseWhisperer]

Last year on tour, one of our members won the "Rubber Chicken" award with electronic ignition.

Fortunatley, someone had a spare original dissy to get him going again, and it only delayed us 45 minutes.

[TinCup]

Mel and JD at FS are great guys to work with. We had them down for a hands on demonstration at one of our monthly club meetings. Many really like the units including their new unit that looks like a stock distributor.

I would put the money someplace else. I also am running stock points and like Tom says it's part of the experience with an 81 year old car.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Seth Swoboda

Buy a pertronix ignition and bolt it in......it's that easy. And works BETTER than a points system any day of the week. There are a ton of nay sayers on here that cry about electronic ignition systems but I have never had a problem with one. Most likely operator error & just too stubborn to change.

I have installed and ran the pertronix ignition in the following:
1. 1931 Model A Victoria
2. 1967 mustang coupe (289 engine)
3. 1939 ford pickup (59AB engine)
4. (2) John Deere 3020 gas tractors

Seth, please let me ask you to qualify your statement above.

I know you say there are a lot of "neysayers" here but many of us have spoken based on our personal experiences with them. Again, if you would be so kind, could/would you explain why you feel they are better?

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by dew the 31 tudor

what is the best way to add electronic igition to my 31 A ?

WHY???? don't you want a Model A the way it was intended...Seems to be working fine for the last 80 years +.....JMHO!!

[Purdy Swoft]

I don't see the advantage of electronic ignition. There is too many little things that can render electronic ignition useless. The original distributor is very simple to repair on the road. The only time that I ever had to be towed home was because of the so called modern points. If you want hotter spark I recommend the pertronix flame thrower coil, 1.5 OHM for six volt or 3.0 Ohm for twelve volt. I also recommend the Bill Stipe points cam. This will save some money and give hotter ignition that is way more forgiving to the home model A mechanic.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by dew the 31 tudor

what is the best way to add electronic igition to my 31 A ?

Simple--- DON`T..

[jerry shook]

I have said it before and will say it again. If points, generators, up draft carbs ext. Were the best would we not still have them in to days cars.and i can only say in my a the modern stuff works a 100% better in every way. Common sence should tell us that. If they were working fine for the last 80 years , we would still have them in to days cars. It should be the choice of the owner what he does to his a. Just saying.

[jan bogert]

Jerry i agree JAN. only because my middle name is Jerry. no its up to the owner, after all he or she has to drive it and enjoy it. which ever way it is JAN.

[Purdy Swoft]

Whatever makes you happy. My thought is that computer controled electronic ignition is best for modern cars. Model A's don't have computers and were made simple for the common man to be able to repair, not so with electronic. I don't work on the modern vehicles. I have been working with original type distributors for over 50 years and know how to fix them. Modern cars are mostly throw aways when they wear out. Model A's if properly maintained have lasted over 80 years. I like to keep it simple so that I can fix it on the spot ,when needed. There are easier and less expensive ways to get hotter spark, that is more user frendly.

[jan bogert]

with electronic you don't have points and condencer, or the spark advance rod to play with. but if you turn your key on without the motor running, for more than 45 seconds, you will burn out the module. keep that in mind if you go that way, and one day you can't start your car.

[Fred]

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Originally Posted by jan bogert

with electronic you don't have points and condencer, or the spark advance rod to play with. but if you turn your key on without the motor running, for more than 45 seconds, you will burn out the module. keep that in mind if you go that way, and one day you can't start your car.

Yup, And I know everybody on that weekend tour has a spare one because you dont, while 80+ miles from home..

[Frank Miller]

Oh, ...and Frank my friend, are you sure about all of that regarding alternators and how the electronic works better?? Not so sure I can 'buy-into' those thoughts of yours.
.[/QUOTE]

I believe the generator can produce voltage spikes that will make no difference with a conventional system. Electronics are not so tough. The electronic will give you more consistent operation over the long run and need no maintenance. There are no wear parts. The original question asked what type of electronic to install, not which is better? I am a big believer in making the stock stuff work and keeping it going. I was just pointing out what I believe to be a problem with electronics and a generator.

[Milton]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Seth, please let me ask you to qualify your statement above.

I know you say there are a lot of "neysayers" here but many of us have spoken based on our personal experiences with them. Again, if you would be so kind, could/would you explain why you feel they are better?

Brent, Your request is really valid to the point that, if Seth is occupied with other matters currently, I will try to answer with, what I feel are, the qualifications.

1. Points must be adjusted. To wide, weak spark. To close, burnt points.
2. Points are operated by a friction block that rubs on a cam.
3. New points are prone to lose adjustment until the friction block is seated.
4. Point gap varies with any play in the distributor shaft.
5. Points transfer material with operation which causes pits and peaks on the point surface and can cause difficulty in gapping.
6. Points use a condenser to control the arcing when the coil field collapses. That wad of tinfoil separated by a sheet of paper can fail and stop the car just as good as any electronic ignition failure.

Oops, I was going for three strikes and I damn near closed out the inning. Again, these are my feelings based on my electronic and mechanical training and experience, but it just ain't like Henry made it, and it never will be.

[MrTube]

Though this may not apply to aftermarket systems for the "A" I have owned many cars with electronic ignition all with over 200K miles on them and have had ONE failure and that was a pickup coil failure after over 220,000 miles and almost 19 years.

Good luck trying to get that from a mechanical ignition system. Not to mention NO HUMAN can properly control ignition advance in real time.


Both my commute as well as my wife's commute are 45 miles each way. Each of us driving 90 miles a day we must be out of our minds not to have spare ignition parts in both vehicles eh?

[George Miller]

There is nothing to be gained on a 4.2 compression engine with electronic ignition other than trouble.
My hill climb car has had the fastest time with point ignition a few times. If I'm wrong please explain why it is better and how it makes more power.

[Logan]

I can change an electronic module just as fast as i can change points and condenser, and if you have the centrifugal advance distributor its even easier and faster. The only reason i know this is because i recently switched my car from 6 volts to 12 volts, and so i had to switch out modules/coils. It's one wire to ground, one wire to positive side of the coil, and one wire to negative side of the coil. I do carry a spare module and coil everywhere i go, but to get the spares its only like $60 extra i believe? give or take a few dollars. people easily can spend an hour on the side of the road trying to fix an original ignition system, or trying to figure out what is wrong. For electronic ignitions its quite simple, if the fuse is blown, you have a loose connection, or an exposed wire. If the positive side of the coil has no power getting to it, then it is a bad module and you switch it out. FS ignitions pretty much make their systems idiot proof, as long as you hook them up following their instructions. I know of one person who has had a module go out, and it is because they hooked it up WITHOUT the inline fuse they provided. Some people get power from alternators/generators for the electronic ignitions, which this causes voltage spikes, which will fry the module. You have to get the power supply strait from the battery.

There is no question that point systems work great, but electronic ignitions do too. Just because they are not original doesn't make them a bad product.

[anteek]

If points were so good ford would still be using them and mechanical brakes. Hell,many cars are back to 16 inch tires; what retro steps will Detroit take next;maybe 3 speed trans?

[31Tudor]

On a club tour with my speedster the electronic ignition ignitor failed. Of course there was nothing I could do on the road, but put in a stock distributor to run the rest of the tour. I had maybe 6,000 miles on it. I since put in a points distributor and have been running strong since. My own personal expericence was not real positive with the electronic ignition.

[Steve Wastler]

Interesting thread, the only points to electronic conversion I have done and was super pleased with was not a model A, but a petty radically built 74 Harley sportster. The crap points Harley was making, the point blocks were wearing in like 25 miles, got tired of always adjusting on the side of the road, put a Crane single fire electronic system with dual coils, best thing I ever did to that thing, never another ignition issue. With that said, I myself would never change any of my A's, but could see why some would want to.

[Jordan]

I have an electronic ignition from FS and i love it. Would never go back. I drive about 10,000 miles a year in a model a, so I like reliability and performance over a stock car. I've never had a problem, and plan to keep my car the way it is.

[sonny30coupe]

Hey Steve, My first Harley was a 74 sporty, I too changed the points to an electronic unit. It worked great there. But I would not change my A.

[azmodela]

Originally Posted by Jordan

I have an electronic ignition from FS and i love it. Would never go back. I drive about 10,000 miles a year in a model a, so I like reliability and performance over a stock car. I've never had a problem, and plan to keep my car the way it is.

I love the reliability and performance of the points and condenser my cars! I've never had a problem, and have never spent an hour chasing the problem. It may take me an hour to chase the problem I don't know, I've never had a problem to begin with!

Of course should there be a problem, I just carry an extra distributor that's timed and ready to go. I can't see why that would take an hour to change out.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Ditto what azmodela said. Either system can work fine, but there is nothing to be gained by changing. You won't gain mileage and you won't gain horsepower, so you may as well save your money for good original parts needed somewhere else on the car.

[ford31]

how do I get the Bill stipes cam

[modeleh]

Think about this for a minute.
When you take someone for a ride in your A, they will surely ask "What are those levers on the steering wheel for?"
You can either say "The left one is to advance or retard the timing, and the right one is a hand throttle". They will say something like "Wow, that's neat!"
OR you can say "The right one is a hand throttle and the left one doesn't do anything anymore".

[Purdy Swoft]

Phone 920-467-2895 Ask for the improved B distributor cam, part number SMC 0033

[Jordan]

Originally Posted by azmodela

I love the reliability and performance of the points and condenser my cars! I've never had a problem, and have never spent an hour chasing the problem. It may take me an hour to chase the problem I don't know, I've never had a problem to begin with!

Of course should there be a problem, I just carry an extra distributor that's timed and ready to go. I can't see why that would take an hour to change out.

I've never spent a second on my distributor since i installed it.

[Herb Concord Ca]

When I installed a FS electronic module on my 31 p/u, the first thing I noticed was how quickly it started.
The other thing I noticed was an increase in gas mileage.
Herb Neumann
Concord CA

[jcheshire31]

At the end of the day, it's still their car. Not everyone is the same. It's not like they're chopping it up and putting a flatty in it, which i'm not to crazy about, but like I said it's their car. They pay the bills. They make the decisions. I respect the work that is put into any car no matter what is under the hood or what modifications it has. In this case, they're modifying how the electricity gets from the coil to the plugs. They're not painting it like the Mystery Machine or GOD FORBID putting those "terrible white walls" on it. Each distributor has it's pros and cons and everybody has their own oppinions. It's not that big off a deal and in my oppinion it's not a topic worth fighting over. jmho

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by dew the 31 tudor

what is the best way to add electronic igition to my 31 A ?

Hm, 'best way'. Well, about 6 yrs ago , I installed an electronic module setup in my model a dizzy...and have never had to touch it since. Try it, you will never regret it....IF DONE RIGHT!
BTW- for those that cry foul/fowl..whatever..don't waste my/your time!
I've driven Model As stock as ford built them 80 years ago..for decades. I changed... for same reasons as some here have accurately explained...and more.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

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Originally Posted by Herb Concord Ca

When I installed a FS electronic module on my 31 p/u, the first thing I noticed was how quickly it started.
The other thing I noticed was an increase in gas mileage.
Herb Neumann
Concord CA

With all due respect Herb, if that was the case then you likely had some issues with your points ign. system that was creating your hardship. In reality, you should be able to hit the starter and in less than one revolution of the engine it should start with either type system. If not, then something probably is not adjusted correctly however that probably is not the fault of the system IMHO. The same applies to the mileage. The electronic ign. (contrary to popular myth) does not necessarily make a hotter spark over a points triggered ignition system unless the there is a defect in that points system. Dyno tests will confirm there is not any discernable difference in horsepower between an electronic ign. system vs. a points triggered system.

I also think jcheshire makes a valid point in that it really doesn't matter which unit you use (providing you have the skills to repair it, ...which many folks don't!), HOWEVER I think the main reason why folks come to a forum such as this is to gather facts that will help them make the best decision for themselves. I would venture a guess that even the most 'purist-minded' folks here do not have an issue with modernization/upgrading if it is done for the right reason however facts --not opinions really should validate the reason for the upgrade, --and not just making a change because it "seems plausible based on someone else's opinions or beliefs".

As a FS Dealer I too have installed quite a few units over the years and warrantied/replaced some too. Many of those I have no idea why they failed as I probably never heard the accurate story from the customer. I guess that is why I subscribe to the mindset that if you want electronic ignition on your engine, that is fine with me and I will gladly promote FS and do the installation however please do not manipulate the facts with unsubstantiated opinions, --or use myths to convince others that electronic is superior in all ways, ...because as you can see, the vast experiences of many others (-including myself) just cannot substantiate that. If someone has accurate test data, or scientifically-made comparisons showing why one system is much superior to the other system, then I think we are all truly interested.

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by Jordan

I've never spent a second on my distributor since i installed it.

Whats a distributor?
If / when I can finally afford my own "A" my preference would be a 4 coil system with CPS and I'll relax while everyone else cleans and adjusts their reliable points or trys to find out why they have a short inside the stock "A" distributor. Is it a shorted condenser? Is it the cheesy wire in between the bottom and top plate?

Like I said previously. 200+K miles and almost 19 years without EVER being worked on other than spark plugs. I'd love to see someone get 200,000 miles out of a set of points.

[ford31]

my pickup had not been started in several months,my grandson (10 years old) ad a play Jazz theme around the 30's,we planned taking Jace to school play,he was dressed the part,went to garage model a always started with a bump of starter,well it spun several times nothing and only about 1 1/2 hours before time to be at school and had to wash model a and now would not start,it is original dist carb ect,pulled dist cap off ran piece of thin cardboard between points,put cap back on,started with usual bump,was a big hit at school took Jace to front door people gathered around taking pictures it was grandma Jace and my very proud night and our area has very few model a's and the little piece of gardboard made it

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by MrTube

Whats a distributor?
If / when I can finally afford my own "A" my preference would be a 4 coil system with CPS and I'll relax while everyone else cleans and adjusts their reliable points or trys to find out why they have a short inside the stock "A" distributor. Is it a shorted condenser? Is it the cheesy wire in between the bottom and top plate?

Like I said previously. 200+K miles and almost 19 years without EVER being worked on other than spark plugs. I'd love to see someone get 200,000 miles out of a set of points.

Surely this is meant in jest because I would like for someone to show me where they got 200,000 miles on anything mechanical in a Model A without working on it!!

I will say that maybe we sometimes forget to consider what the 'serviceable life' is for anything Model A related. Should we really expect every original component to compare to 21st century engineering or manufacturing? If not, then why are we??

.

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Surely this is meant in jest because I would like for someone to show me where they got 200,000 miles on anything mechanical in a Model A without working on it!!

I will say that maybe we sometimes forget to consider what the 'serviceable life' is for anything Model A related. Should we really expect every original component to compare to 21st century engineering or manufacturing? If not, then why are we??

.

Wasn't on a model A. I've had quite a few modern vehicles with electronic ignitions.

Don't know about others, but I wasn't expecting original components of the model A to compare to stuff from the 21st century, I'm simply saying why I feel electronic ignition is superior. I have seen many many people on here claim breaker points are more reliable and it simply is not true.

[HoarseWhisperer]

This thread is brought to you by,

"Never let the facts get in the way of a good story".

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by HoarseWhisperer

This thread is brought to you by,

"Never let the facts get in the way of a good story".

Everything I have said was honest and respectful to others.
I don't appreciate being called a liar.

[HoarseWhisperer]

Psst... take it easy Mr. Tube.


No one call you a liar. It wasn't directed at you.

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by HoarseWhisperer

Psst... take it easy Mr. Tube.


No one call you a liar. It wasn't directed at you.

Eh, better to respond with what I was thinking and find out I was wrong then to stay upset, right?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by MrTube

Wasn't on a model A. I've had quite a few modern vehicles with electronic ignitions.

Don't know about others, but I wasn't expecting original components of the model A to compare to stuff from the 21st century, I'm simply saying why I feel electronic ignition is superior. I have seen many many people on here claim breaker points are more reliable and it simply is not true.

See, this is my point, ....you say this because you feel like it is believable in your own mind. No where can you find facts (scientific research or test data) that can back up your statement that it is superior. Equal too? Yeah maybe. More reliable? I think in the case of retrofitting a Model A engine the statistics and testimonials would prove otherwise.

Mine and other's point is that in the grand scheme of things, by percentages there are very few electronic ignition systems in use in Model A's compared to point-styled systems that are in use today, and have been used for the past 80+ years. Therefore are we really comparing Apples-to-Apples?

Also, is it fair to compare worn out point-style ignition systems to a new electronic system? I don't think so. I also think that there are quite a few folks that have personally experienced an electronic ignition system failure that rendered their trip back home fateful. Even with a faulty set of points, or condensor, or coil, I find someone can usually limp their car back home albiet they may need to pull over a few times to allow the component to cool long enough for it to function again.



One other thought on this entire thread. I wrote this on another thread but maybe it applies here too.

The automotive engineering world began +/- around the year 1900. If we were to fast-forward about 28 years from that beginning, you had the latest technology, --the Model A Ford. Add another 28 years to that date and you experienced Ford's latest engineering for 1956. Add another 28 years and you saw 1984 technology, ...and forward another 28 years you have the 2012 technology of which many are trying to expect our Model A to be like.

By comparison to the above timeline, the Model A technology is equal to the first 25% of today's automotive engineering or technology. Our brand new modern cars should in essence be 400% better than what the new Model A was, ...but in reality if we accept the Model A for what it was in that timeframe, and return it to the exact condition it was when it rolled off the assembly line, I'm not so sure we could say that the new cars are indeed 400% better or more reliable!

So if we tell people our Model A is original, ...and we know from experience that 1927 engineering technology still gets the job done adequately and reliably, then why do we feel compelled to re-engineer our cars to be just like a 2012 car is? Is this being done to compensate for our own shortcomings or inadequacies, and not necessarily that of our Model A's??

.

[Seth Swoboda]

I just took my fiance's car back to the dealer this morning, had them take out the electronic ignition and put in a points system, I can't imgaine what would happen if she got stranded on the side of the road with a bad electronic ignition? I'm also going to throw away my cell phone, TV, refridgerator, disconnect my electricity & indoor plumbing, heat and A/C, wash machine and dryer, I can't take the risk that one of them may quit working at some point in time........oh my this thread cracks me up!!

[bobpo]

Originally Posted by HoarseWhisperer

This thread is brought to you by,

"Never let the facts get in the way of a good story".

We can always count on our neighbors to the North to come up with a comment like this. Thanks HoarseWhisperer, ya gave me a real chuckle....... Amen.....

[Seth Swoboda]

Originally Posted by modeleh

Think about this for a minute.
When you take someone for a ride in your A, they will surely ask "What are those levers on the steering wheel for?"
You can either say "The left one is to advance or retard the timing, and the right one is a hand throttle". They will say something like "Wow, that's neat!"
OR you can say "The right one is a hand throttle and the left one doesn't do anything anymore".

Just for the record, with my pertronix ignition, I still retard and advance the spark manually, like the points system. I have the stock ford distributor body with the pertronix inside. You guys would never know the difference without opening the cap. I still tell the folks "the lever on the left advances the timing" because it does, lol.

[jerry shook]

Brent. With all due respect. I agree with herb, the start is quicker , better millage and more h/p . I have an original that a well known gentlemen in ga tuned it up an it does great. But nothing like with the modern stuff. An dont manipulate the facs or use myths, electronics is superior in ever way . Get the test data from the ford engineers that have changed over the years to make cars better. Ford .com and the 1927 engineering technology is not still adequate and reliability . Ask the engineers why they re-engineered our cars. We are not living in 1928 to 1931. Lol

[Jordan]

Originally Posted by jcheshire31

At the end of the day, it's still their car. Not everyone is the same. It's not like they're chopping it up and putting a flatty in it, which i'm not to crazy about, but like I said it's their car. They pay the bills. They make the decisions. I respect the work that is put into any car no matter what is under the hood or what modifications it has. In this case, they're modifying how the electricity gets from the coil to the plugs. They're not painting it like the Mystery Machine or GOD FORBID putting those "terrible white walls" on it. Each distributor has it's pros and cons and everybody has their own oppinions. It's not that big off a deal and in my oppinion it's not a topic worth fighting over. jmho

couldn't have said it better myself

[Frank Miller]

The original question was about how to install an electronic ignition, not whether it is better. Not matter what is done there are drawbacks but each individual decides which ones he wants to live with. Our technology is changing exponentially. There are things that were invented and have become obsolete in our lifetime. I just threw out a bunch of floppy discs the other day. Remember those? Most of the guys here are thinkers. They ask "what if" and a few of them are adventurous enough to find out. For whatever reasons they are pleased with their idea. I like the idea of the primitive driving experience and required knowledge to keep the car going. Others are happy to be driving something with wire wheels and a rumbleseat. They all contribute to our hobby. So now the thread is completely hijacked. Sorry.

[jerry shook]

Right on seth. Common sence is all it takes.

[Kevin in NJ]

The question was specific.

modernize my 31 A which electronic ignition should I spend money on?

His question was not asking how to get his car to run better or more reliable.

[Frank Miller]

Thanks Kevin. I knew I did not get it exact but was too lazy to look for the original post. Four pages and I am not even sure if his question was answered.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Frank Miller

Thanks Kevin. I knew I did not get it exact but was too lazy to look for the original post. Four pages and I am not even sure if his question was answered.

It was answered in the very first reply by me. People tend to over look the original question, and the correct answers to say what they would do.

Nothing personal against you Frank, just voicing what i have observed from others.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

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Originally Posted by jerry shook

Brent. With all due respect. I agree with herb, the start is quicker , better millage and more h/p . I have an original that a well known gentlemen in ga tuned it up an it does great. But nothing like with the modern stuff. An dont manipulate the facs or use myths, electronics is superior in ever way . Get the test data from the ford engineers that have changed over the years to make cars better. Ford .com and the 1927 engineering technology is not still adequate and reliability . Ask the engineers why they re-engineered our cars. We are not living in 1928 to 1931. Lol

Jerry, I sincerely trust your integrity however can you provide all of us dyno tests which provides unbiased proof where the electronic ignition made more horsepower over a points ignition on a Model A engine?

And one other question. What is the purpose of owning a 1928-1931 Model A if one does not want to temporarily live in, --or experience that specific era in time?

[jerry shook]

We sale lawn mowers in our shop, when a customer comes in and ask which mower should i spend my money on. We tell then, and why they should. Does that make sense. We would not sale many if we did not.

[jerry shook]

You know some questions, are better not answered. With out common sense no answer will do.

[MALAK]

Originally Posted by dew the 31 tudor

what is the best way to add electronic igition to my 31 A ?

Since this got way off subject, as posts of this nature typically do, I'll share the schematic of my A. I know this is gonna be sacrilege/blasphemy to some. An many are gonna wonder why an "MSD"? And for those who say it's unnecessary/no advantage I'd agree but I had 2 of these sitting on the shelf collecting dust from other cars I've gotten rid of or converted to Distributorless Ignition System (DIS). If you study my schematic carefully I have built in redundancy. The Petronix simply fires the MSD and is not exposed the the inductive feedback from the coil. In this system the MSD is the most likely culprit to fail although they are very reliable. Should the MSD fail all I have to do is reconfigure the way the 2 bypass connectors are plugged in and the Petronix will drive the coil directly, bypassing the MSD. If the Petronix fails all I need do is simply put the points back in and away I go.

Is the MSD way over kill? For a low compression, A engine? YES. Will it mask other conditions (like lean mixture)? YES. This could be advantage/disadvantage depending on how one looks at it.

For me it boils down to this: Unless your 100% restoring (as close as possible) then we all accept some level of compromise as to modifications from the original and these modifications are as individual as the individual. Personally I have no problem using modern tech but don't like doing permanent mods like drilling holes/welding. My A has enough extra holes already!

I'm a Techie guy with a background in electronics/computers and am therefore comfortable with the mods I've done. When I finally get the engine back together I'll be using an Innovate LM-2 O2 meter to dial in the Carter W-1 carb and may eventually upgrade the MSD to a programmable unit that I can use a PC to program a timing curve.

Go ahead let me have it. I can take it.

[Seth Swoboda]

Originally Posted by MALAK

Since this got way off subject, as posts of this nature typically do, I'll share the schematic of my A. I know this is gonna be sacrilege/blasphemy to some. An many are gonna wonder why an "MSD"? And for those who say it's unnecessary/no advantage I'd agree but I had 2 of these sitting on the shelf collecting dust from other cars I've gotten rid of or converted to Distributorless Ignition System (DIS). If you study my schematic carefully I have built in redundancy. The Petronix simply fires the MSD and is not exposed the the inductive feedback from the coil. In this system the MSD is the most likely culprit to fail although they are very reliable. Should the MSD fail all I have to do is reconfigure the way the 2 bypass connectors are plugged in and the Petronix will drive the coil directly, bypassing the MSD. If the Petronix fails all I need do is simply put the points back in and away I go.

Is the MSD way over kill? For a low compression, A engine? YES. Will it mask other conditions (like lean mixture)? YES. This could be advantage/disadvantage depending on how one looks at it.

For me it boils down to this: Unless your 100% restoring (as close as possible) then we all accept some level of compromise as to modifications from the original and these modifications are as individual as the individual. Personally I have no problem using modern tech but don't like doing permanent mods like drilling holes/welding. My A has enough extra holes already!

I'm a Techie guy with a background in electronics/computers and am therefore comfortable with the mods I've done. When I finally get the engine back together I'll be using an Innovate LM-2 O2 meter to dial in the Carter W-1 carb and may eventually upgrade the MSD to a programmable unit that I can use a PC to program a timing curve.

Go ahead let me have it. I can take it.

MALAK, you may have just sent some of these guys into cardiac arrest!! Thanks for posting useful/helpful information and not a bunch of pessimistic garbage.

[MALAK]

Originally Posted by Seth Swoboda

MALAK, you may have just sent some of these guys into cardiac arrest!! Thanks for posting useful/helpful information and not a bunch of pessimistic garbage.

I think your right. About the cardiac arrest that is.

[hardtimes]

Malak,
'Techie guy'...Nah, don't believe it !!
OK..how much and how soon can you make me one up ! You sound like my 20 year old grandson.....

[marc hildebrant]

Brent had the best answer "And one other question. What is the purpose of owning a 1928-1931 Model A if one does not want to temporarily live in, --or experience that specific era in time? "

I'm an electrical engineer with way to much experience from working with "state of the art" stuff. For me, the Model A is a car and an experience into a different and for me better time. I like living back in time via the hobby, and using today's technology also. This hobby allows me to have the best of both worlds !

Sure, I could add all the improvements to the car, but why ?

Marc

.

[hardtimes]

[QUOTE=marc hildebrant;365860]Brent had the best answer "And one other question. What is the purpose of owning a 1928-1931 Model A if one does not want to temporarily live in, --or experience that specific era in time? "

I'm an electrical engineer with way to much experience from working with "state of the art" stuff. For me, the Model A is a car and an experience into a different and for me better time. I like living back in time via the hobby, and using today's technology also. This hobby allows me to have the best of both worlds !

Sure, I could add all the improvements to the car, but why ?

Marc

Marc,
You asked..so I'll tell you why..in my case.
I haven't a clue how long you've owned Model As. I've owned them for many decades, mostly because they were what I could afford and partly because they were so cheap/easy to keep going. Never owned anything pretty, like what you are sitting in. And, lots of time my Model As wouldn't start up immediately, for a variety of reasons( old battery,old wiring, worn points/whatever) Well , back when, I could actually 'push start' my A , and could for years. Couldn't do that today, even if I wanted to. Ergo, make that A more reliable...and I have and it is

[marc hildebrant]

Hardtimes,

Thanks for your comment. I can understand your point, and I hope that you can see things from my perspective too.

Marc

[jerry shook]

Marc you or for to smart and experience to ever understand (why). The model a is to simple. Hardtimes we are wasting time we could be enjoying our modern a . I just love these threads.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by MALAK

I think your right. About the cardiac arrest that is.

Not me because in my early youth I was a factory rep for several aftermarket performance companies, ...one of which was Autotronics in ElPaso. (Go look it up.) I also want to question you when you made the comment that a MSD will mask a lean condition. I think you are likely in error there because using a MSD in that condition would likely exacerbate the condition. I think in reality what you were implying is the MSD works well in masking an overly rich fuel mixtures as it has a better chance of "lighting the load" with the multiple plug sparks. I guess the three questions I would pose for you is:

A) Are we really comparing Apples-to-Apples comparing a single-spark ign. system to a multi-spark system? I say NO. Is there a Hp advantage with a multi-spark system over a single spark? I say MOST DEFINITELY.

B) Can a MSD system be operated by a points-triggered system and produce the same exact intensity of spark as what it can with an electronic triggered system? I know for a fact that answer is YES.

My point is we are not making equal comparisons because I can do anything with my stock points-equipped Model A distributor connected to a MSD that you can do with an FS electronic triggered system.



Seth, to answer your comment "pessemistic garbage" is a slam that I feel is undeserved for many who have WAY more experience than what I feel you possibly have. Remember, as a FS Dealer (go look on their website for my name) I have probably installed more of these units than anyone else who has posted in this entire thread. I am not implying I know better than everyone else but my first-hand experience should account for something. JD will tell you that as one of his dealers I have warrantied many units because for whatever reason simply because they failed on the customer. I truly do not know why, -nor did I inquire however these folks had units they had installed that created issues for them. FS has a great reputation for standing behind their merchandise and providing a warranty. My intent as a dealer for them was to uphold their reputation.

Therefore, I personally do not care whether someone has an electronic triggered system or a stock system however I do desire for any posted information to remain factual so others can make prudent decisions. Therefore my only involvement with this thread was to help ensure unproven opinions do not overshadow the facts. Citing a MSD unit is way beyond what the spirit in which this thread started as, ...and for me it really should not be too much to ask someone to provide proof to corroborate their stated opinion. If someone does that, then I can factor that in with knowledge I already have to make an informed opinion, however to imply "common sense" should be proof enough for what they want us to believe, --or stating "some answers are best unanswered" really does not prove anything to any of us. All I respectfully asked of you was could you prove your opinion with accurate data to back up you claims of why you say a Model A electronic ignition system is better any day of the week. Since you did not, may I politely ask you again to do so? Again, not possibilities or hypothetical situations but real-world verifiable data.

For the record, I have personally dyno-ed the two systems and I know what the performance differences are. Regarding reliability comparisons, I also know what I have personally experienced, and what many have stated their own personal experiences have been in this thread. I might also add that James Rogers and I are about to go do some more dyno testing, and if anyone here wants to come participate as an impartial judge, I would welcome that.

[MALAK]

Oh yea I forgot to mention; no Model A's were hurt during the installation of my "electronics". I used all existing holes for mounting everything.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by jerry shook

Marc you or for to smart and experience to ever understand (why). The model a is to simple. Hardtimes we are wasting time we could be enjoying our modern a . I just love these threads.

Talking of enjoying...I just a got a ph call from my 93 year old father in law! I just got another 'reason' to be enjoying...as he needs my help. I'm in the roadster and outta here..whoohoo
BTW- Silver lining to this thread....yeah, it's that most can/are giving seat of the pants type input. When someone starts introducing 'statistics'....well we all know that figures don't lie, whereas liars figure Course no one here would ever try that one on us,eh

[jerry shook]

Brent. Would you please post your imformation from the dyno test i am sure you got a print out. I and others would love to see it. I know you wont mind doing this, will you. Cant wait to see it.

[MALAK]

Autotronic Controls Corp = MSD.
I agree with you Brent, there where some missed comparisons along the lines. I only put the MSD in because it's been sitting on the shelf for the last couple years with nothing to do. Figured I might as well us it. As far as mixture goes I believe it would help (mask) rich or lean (within reason) if said mixture was right at the point the stock ign had trouble firing it. How do you think it would "exacerbate the condition" in a lean condition. Just wondering.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by anteek

If points were so good ford would still be using them and mechanical brakes. Hell,many cars are back to 16 inch tires; what retro steps will Detroit take next;maybe 3 speed trans?

In this discussion is that really what you want to hang your hat on?

I guess we should change to independant front suspension instead of the straight axle, struts in place of the rear springs. Pull the engine out because what car has a flat head engine? Remove the carb and use fuel injection, how about a computer. Don't all the cars now have computers? and the styling, Detroit doesn't make any car with the the front area of an A.

I don't want a Ford Focus I want a Model A. This site is supposed to be about the restoration of Model A's.

[HoarseWhisperer]

As the United Nations General Assembly finally reaches resolution agreement on Syria, they now turn to an "ignited" hotspot in the ol' barn regarding "ignition" systems, after sparks flew in "heated" discussions.

It is hoped that diplomatic efforts will continue.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by HoarseWhisperer

As the United Nations General Assembly finally reaches resolution agreement on Syria, they now turn to an "ignited" hotspot in the ol' barn regarding "ignition" systems, after sparks flew in "heated" discussions.

It is hoped that diplomatic efforts will continue.

I hear they have asked NASCAR for help !!..

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by MALAK

Autotronic Controls Corp = MSD.
I agree with you Brent, there where some missed comparisons along the lines. I only put the MSD in because it's been sitting on the shelf for the last couple years with nothing to do. Figured I might as well us it. As far as mixture goes I believe it would help (mask) rich or lean (within reason) if said mixture was right at the point the stock ign had trouble firing it. How do you think it would "exacerbate the condition" in a lean condition. Just wondering.

Well that is just it, ...let's say if the fuel/air mixture is 12.0 or less (rich), then the multiple sparks will help light the mixture as it is in turbulence where it will still have time to burn cleanly at TDC. That to me means it will "mask" the problem of being too 'fat' or rich. If the mixture is too lean (i.e.: < 13.4+) then with one spark you are depending on flame travel (under pressure) to light the rest of the entire fuel load which would be much slower than if there are multiple sparks allowing the swirling mixture to explode faster as it passes by the spark plug. Remember that ignition within the cylinder is much like pouring gasoline on the ground and then throwing a lighted match at it. That gasoline on the ground does not all ignite the moment the lighted match reaches the fuel. The flame takes a millisecond to travel throughout the entire area of fuel to light all of those vapors.

Compare that if you had two buddies with lit matches and all three of y'all threw your matches into different areas of the same amount of fuel. The entire amount of fuel on the ground would light faster with the three matches because the flame would have less distance to travel before all of the vapors were ignited. Fuel inside of a combustion chamber is swirling around and so with multiple sparks, a different area of fuel is being ignited which allows the entire load of fuel to be lit sooner.

Now with the above said, if the lean fuel mixture were to completely ignite slower because of the singular spark, this would possibly result in enough time for the piston to near TDC where the power loss would not be as detrimental however if the entire mixture were to completely ignite earlier (because of the MSD) before the piston reached TDC, not only would there be a loss in power but there could be bearing damage as a result. Granted we are speaking of milliseconds, but this would be noticable on a dyno graph, --especially in an unefficient chamber design. That is why I say that a lean fuel mixture is worse with an MSD than what it would be with a single spark.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

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Congrats, FordBarners, no one got real "TWISTED" during this discussion! Great reading to practice my reading and comprehension skills.
If I have a sleepless night, I'll read this thread backwards and see what I glean from it. Also, among my "hidden talents," I can read upside down from years at the parts counter ordering stuff from the now obselete parts catalogs. Bill.W.

[jerry shook]

Brent. Please post your dyno test i would love to see it.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by jerry shook

Brent. Please post your dyno test i would love to see it.

Nahh, I'm done. Posting those graphs would prove nothing to you as you were not there to validate. For all you knew I could show you two pulls on a Vega engine and claim one was a Model A engine with, and one was without electronic ignition and who would be the wiser? Dyno testing results are only as honest as you are when performing the actual test. James & I are not scheduling dyno tests to have something to boast or brag about, we are doing it as a means to confirm theories he & I have discussions about. Therefore posting any of that info is just hearsay and really means nothing unless an unbiased party can substantiate what actually took place. This thread has pretty much run its course where I'm bored with it so it is time for me to move on.

.

[columbiA]

After 59 years & 16 A,s & many miles,I have yet to have a breakdown caused by an obsolete ign system.

[jerry shook]

Brent. I agree graphs prove nothjng , the word and experiance of men mean more dont you think. When you and james do the test would you let us know the results, we here respect and look foward to your comments.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Just the facts mam!

The first picture shows a machine I made about 10 years ago to check the Model A ignition system, mainly to help check the accuracy of a rebuilt distributor. I have a degree wheel to check the accuracy of the cam first, then I connect my scope to check the pattern.

The pattern shows that the stock ignition system does NOT just produce a single instantaneous spark, but a spark that continues for a period of time. The first high spike on the left shows the energy needed to ionize the air gap between the spark plug electrodes. Once the spark path is established it takes less energy to continue the flow of electrons. The coil and condenser form a tuned circuit as represented by the oscillations on the scope. You can see the spark continues for several oscillations until the energy has dropped to the point it can no longer jump the gap. When that happens you will see a jump in the spike which is actually higher than the line where the plug quit firing. This however is not enough to ionize the gap and start the spark again, so the coil and condenser continue to oscillate until the energy dissipates as shown by the long lower line. On the right side you will see a drop in the line, which indicates when the points close to reenergize the coil. The left side of the scope shows when the points open and the rapidly collapsing magnetic field in the coil starts the electron flow.

So, you can see that the stock ignition has plenty of energy to reliably fire the plugs in a Model A. Modern cars have high energy ignition needed to fire the much wider gap used on the spark plugs. The wider gap is needed to better fire the lean fuel mixtures modern cars use. As long as the stock ignition fires the plugs I don't see where having an electronic trigger replacing the points is going to improve the reliablity, fuel mileage, or horsepower, so I see no point in changing from a very reliable stock system.

My 28 Phaeton gets just over 22 MPG on the highway trips, and driving a Phaeton with the top up and no side curtains is just about like pulling a small parachute down the road.

I don't expect to change any minds here, as it's plain to see from the posts so far that both sides have their heals firmly dug in. If the electronic ignition can add fuel economy or horsepower it would have to be shown on a dyno. I just wanted to present a few facts to help the undecided make an informed decision. Just the facts mam!

BTW, the red plastic sleeve on the #1 plug wire is so the inductive pickup will work. It won't work when touching a bare spark plug wire.





Here's a picture of the degree wheel and dial indicator being used and a picture of them stowed in the bottom of the cabinet.

[jerry shook]

Tom you wrote. The modern cars have high energy ing needed to fire the wider gap plugs.when i was considering the ing system the one thing i heard was you could run your plugs at a wider gap for better millage, like modern cars. (you have just supported that). No one on here has said the stock points system does not have enough fire for a model a. Just that from there experience they have got better h/p millage and relibility. We use a 1976 ford f-600 for many years it was in the shop repairing the dist new points or condenser or just adjustment, cost a lot for repairs and down time. We had a electronic chip installed 5 years ago , it cranks and runs great has not been back it shop for this . Try this test hold the plug of a stock a and you will get a jolt then try one with ign in it , mabe you can get of the ground afterword .

[Tom Wesenberg]

Jerry, but a wider gap doesn't give better fuel mileage. Computerized fuel injection can give better fuel mileage. I run with my GAV fully closed and it runs fine. This is as lean as I can make it and still have it run right.

[HoarseWhisperer]

As always, interesting post and photos Tom.

You're the man!

[jerry shook]

Tom. I dont have any data to prove . All i have is what experienced mechanics and other a owners have told me about the difference in there a when they changed to electronic ign . And with a wider plug it helps on fuel. And the difference i have seen in my a. Thanks and god bless

[Purdy Swoft]

The spark comes from the coil. If the right performance coil and a wider gap at the spark plug is used, you can have as hot or hotter spark than electronic. The only problem with original style points that would cause them to have to be replaced to make it home would be if the rubbing block wore off completely. I have read enough posts here and on ahooga about module failure with electronic ignition that tells me that I don't want it. I agree that electronic is better for modern cars that were designed with safe guards to use it, not necessarily so with model A's . I'm not a purist, so that has NO bearing with me. In the worse case, I could replace points or whatever, easier than I could replace the electronic module and wiring. I get good milage use from original points, I have been using the same points in my 31 tudor for the past 12 years and have never had a problem. I really don't claim to know much about electronic ignition. I prefer to run a system that I can fix. Having to buy two electronic systems so that I will have parts to repair it when it fails, just don't make common sense to me. Just my thoughts and I'm not trying to tell anybody what they should do. I just know what works for me and thats all that i'm going to say about that!!!

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Jerry, but a wider gap doesn't give better fuel mileage. Computerized fuel injection can give better fuel mileage. I run with my GAV fully closed and it runs fine. This is as lean as I can make it and still have it run right.

Tom,
Nice pics of your creation and explanation. When I look your work/input, I see, in my minds eye, a very meticulous, organized, smart guy!
However, using too many words sometimes they (words) get in the way of common sense. I'd bet that you would agree that something/anything with MANY parts would be prone to 'more problems' with RELIABILITY than something with FEWER parts, no Common sense,eh.
Well, that's all that I have ever claimed , and think that most here are claiming, with installation of elect ign module setup. No moving parts to be lubed/adjusted to wear out versus points/condenser. Yeah, if either system is NOT properly installed you can not expect them to work as intended. But, to say that points system ...has more "reliability" defies common sense.
BTW- Anyone claiming 'better horse power and better gas mileage' should qualify that with testing results....or...state flat out that that is their feeling/opinion only, IMO.
Lastly, it is my experience that my model a engine starts much quicker/better with elect ign vs stock that I've used forever priorly. And, when I run my engine rpms up real HIGH occasionally...my elect ign has never missed a beat vs stock ign that I couldn't get to handle that situation (point bounce/etc) satisfactorily.

[jburessr]

I just can't understand people wanting to fix something that isn't broke!!! Or they try to make the car into something that it wasn't!! Maybe they shouldn't have bought a Model A then???? If I'm on the road or any where and something goes wrong I want to be able to fix it with a screw driver and a match pack, Not having to buy or try to find odd ball parts!!! If you want a Jag, or a new car then just go buy one then!!!! Leave the classic's alone!!!!!!

[Kevin in NJ]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Tom,

However, using too many words sometimes they (words) get in the way of common sense. I'd bet that you would agree that something/anything with MANY parts would be prone to 'more problems' with RELIABILITY than something with FEWER parts, no Common sense,eh.
Well, that's all that I have ever claimed , and think that most here are claiming, with installation of elect ign module setup. No moving parts to be lubed/adjusted to wear out versus points/condenser. Yeah, if either system is NOT properly installed you can not expect them to work as intended. But, to say that points system ...has more "reliability" defies common sense.
BTW- Anyone claiming 'better horse power and better gas mileage' should qualify that with testing results....or...state flat out that that is their feeling/opinion only, IMO.
Lastly, it is my experience that my model a engine starts much quicker/better with elect ign vs stock that I've used forever priorly. And, when I run my engine rpms up real HIGH occasionally...my elect ign has never missed a beat vs stock ign that I couldn't get to handle that situation (point bounce/etc) satisfactorily.

Well let us get the rest of the story.

The points really do not have many moving parts. They also have a history of not really wearing very fast. They do not just fail without miles of warnings if you are listening. Rarely is the failure something you can not overcome with a few simple tools. They might limit you speed, but quite frankly the speed must be over 65 MPH cause I have never found a problem. Keep in mind my brother and I think nothing of running our A's at high rpm for extended periods of time. BTW, our experience shows you should expect to get in the low to mid 20 MPG with your Model A that has points.
The truth is, I do not think you will out live a properly rebuilt points distributer. 99% of the cars will probably run for several generations of the family with an untouched properly restored distributer (unless it is one of the rare cars that gets run thousands of miles a year). Keep in mind my brother 31 coupe is still running the same used points that came on the car back in 1970 so that is close to 40 years of running on a set of used points. Is 40 years unreliable?

As for the electronic ignition, it works great if the electrics are 100%. The electronics can not take over voltage, it will fail you get to buy a new one. It needs to have a certain minimum voltage or it will fail to make spark. No hand cranking a marginal battery, call your tow truck. If you are running 6 volts then you are very close to the cut off voltage for working and a marginal ground will give your system issues.
If they make the boards RoHS compliant then they are using Tin based solder then you have more problems.

So what you have are two systems that will do everything the A owner would want. The problems comes from the fail modes and the recovery. If the points or battery/ charging have an issue then the points system is most likely going to be repaired quickly on the road. You will be able to drive home.
If you have a battery/ charging problem or a failure of the electronic module (yes this happens) then you get a tow home. So when that battery gets down because the alt or generator has a charge problem you will hit a voltage where the electronics will cut off. The points will let you go till the battery is pretty low.

Keep in mind having an alternator does not mean more reliability. Mechanics loved the switch to the alt cause they failed more often so they made more money. Then you throw in most A alt installs have belts too loose to provide a decent charge rate you have more chances for the battery voltage to slide down.


In summary,
Both systems will run a fairly stock A the 60 MPH the car was designed to run all day long.
Both systems can be very reliable if they are properly installed.

BUT

The electronics do not like bad voltage conditions and can not be easily limped home. There are some conditions that can fail the electronics.
The points are more tolerant of bad voltage conditions and generally you can find a way to limp a points system home. It is rare to ever have a total failure of the points system that could not be fixed/ rigged along the road.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

My lord!! Dew's ONLY question was, "WHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO ADD ELECTRONIC IGNITION TO MY '31 A." He needed input from electronic systems users, not a lot of gobbeldy goop about the merits of "points" vs "electronic."
My opinion: Overall, electronic systems are far superior to old type rinky dink points systems.
Should I decide to do ANY upgrade to my "bone stock" '29, I won't "open a can of worms" by asking for advice, I'll just do it!
Confession: Mine is not totally "bone stock," as I have added a leakless/greaseless water pump and a 6 blade plastic fan, and I hope I don't get lectured! Bill Williamson

[Jordan]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

My lord!! Dew's ONLY question was, "WHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO ADD ELECTRONIC IGNITION TO MY '31 A." He needed input from electronic systems users, not a lot of gobbeldy goop about the merits of "points" vs "electronic."
My opinion: Overall, electronic systems are far superior to old type rinky dink points systems.
Should I decide to do ANY upgrade to my "bone stock" '29, I won't "open a can of worms" by asking for advice, I'll just do it!
Confession: Mine is not totally "bone stock," as I have added a leakless/greaseless water pump and a 6 blade plastic fan, and I hope I don't get lectured! Bill Williamson

It is no longer a Model A.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

I just went to the garage to look!! Guess what? "VERMIN" smiled and said, "Im still the most beautiful Lombard Blue & Black early '29 Standard Model A coupe on the block!!"
Yes, they DO talk!!! Bill Williamson

[rollingsculpture]

i want to go for a ride just to see if i get the plugs hot enough to burn off the oil from the bad rings

[Mike V. Florida]

Anyone else notice the original poster has not posted again?

I see this whole thing as three questions;

1) Can I ...?

2) Do I have to ...?

3) Should I ...?

The first one is easy yes you can it's your car and you can do anything you want to to it!

The second one, Do I have to...? Do you have to change to 12 volts, do you have to change to an alt, do you and to change to halogen bulbs. In the context of this site as a restoration site, No you don't.

And lastly Should I...? This depends on how you use your car. Is it a daily driver that you use as a regular car? Maybe you should change to 12 volts to easier connect modern accessories, radio GPS and the like. Maybe you should add A/C and a heater for better comfort, "touring" engine for better hill climbing, power and speed. You get the idea?

Before Ryan took over the site there was drama between the "as Henry built it group" and the "It's mine and I do with it as I want group". That drama is still here with us today even with Ryans statements that his site is for restoration and HAMB is for modifieds and Rods.

I for one would like to know the why when someone asks a car modifying question to see if it falls into "you should do that" column. I have on my favorites, sites that show how to modify/repair alternators, where to get adapters to convert an automatic tranny to fit your A, a list of all the parts for 12 volt conversion and other sacreligious things that if you search my posts you will see I have posted here.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by jburessr

I just can't understand people wanting to fix something that isn't broke!!! Or they try to make the car into something that it wasn't!! Maybe they shouldn't have bought a Model A then???? If I'm on the road or any where and something goes wrong I want to be able to fix it with a screw driver and a match pack, Not having to buy or try to find odd ball parts!!! If you want a Jag, or a new car then just go buy one then!!!! Leave the classic's alone!!!!!!

Years ago when Shelly had Fordbarn I asked almost the same question and sure got a lot of backlash for it. I asked "why do people buy a Model A for what it is, then try to make it what it isn't?" My butt is still smoking from that one!

Bill W. are you suffering from information overload? LOL
And now you admit to having a 6 blade plastic fan. Not only will you have to listen to lectures, you'll have to move to the back of the class.

Yes, I also noticed the original poster hasn't responded, but I just assumed it's because with all the information he has been given he was better able to make an informed decision and is too busy driving his Model A with the reliable points ignition.

Life's too short, just enjoy your A which ever way you go, and if I pass you on the side of the road, I'll know you made the wrong decision. LOL

[blgitn]

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Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Not me because in my early youth I was a factory rep for several aftermarket performance companies, ...one of which was Autotronics in ElPaso. (Go look it up.) I also want to question you when you made the comment that a MSD will mask a lean condition. I think you are likely in error there because using a MSD in that condition would likely exacerbate the condition. I think in reality what you were implying is the MSD works well in masking an overly rich fuel mixtures as it has a better chance of "lighting the load" with the multiple plug sparks. I guess the three questions I would pose for you is:

A) Are we really comparing Apples-to-Apples comparing a single-spark ign. system to a multi-spark system? I say NO. Is there a Hp advantage with a multi-spark system over a single spark? I say MOST DEFINITELY.

B) Can a MSD system be operated by a points-triggered system and produce the same exact intensity of spark as what it can with an electronic triggered system? I know for a fact that answer is YES.

My point is we are not making equal comparisons because I can do anything with my stock points-equipped Model A distributor connected to a MSD that you can do with an FS electronic triggered system.



Seth, to answer your comment "pessemistic garbage" is a slam that I feel is undeserved for many who have WAY more experience than what I feel you possibly have. Remember, as a FS Dealer (go look on their website for my name) I have probably installed more of these units than anyone else who has posted in this entire thread. I am not implying I know better than everyone else but my first-hand experience should account for something. JD will tell you that as one of his dealers I have warrantied many units because for whatever reason simply because they failed on the customer. I truly do not know why, -nor did I inquire however these folks had units they had installed that created issues for them. FS has a great reputation for standing behind their merchandise and providing a warranty. My intent as a dealer for them was to uphold their reputation.

Therefore, I personally do not care whether someone has an electronic triggered system or a stock system however I do desire for any posted information to remain factual so others can make prudent decisions. Therefore my only involvement with this thread was to help ensure unproven opinions do not overshadow the facts. Citing a MSD unit is way beyond what the spirit in which this thread started as, ...and for me it really should not be too much to ask someone to provide proof to corroborate their stated opinion. If someone does that, then I can factor that in with knowledge I already have to make an informed opinion, however to imply "common sense" should be proof enough for what they want us to believe, --or stating "some answers are best unanswered" really does not prove anything to any of us. All I respectfully asked of you was could you prove your opinion with accurate data to back up you claims of why you say a Model A electronic ignition system is better any day of the week. Since you did not, may I politely ask you again to do so? Again, not possibilities or hypothetical situations but real-world verifiable data.

For the record, I have personally dyno-ed the two systems and I know what the performance differences are. Regarding reliability comparisons, I also know what I have personally experienced, and what many have stated their own personal experiences have been in this thread. I might also add that James Rogers and I are about to go do some more dyno testing, and if anyone here wants to come participate as an impartial judge, I would welcome that.

I wanna go! Where and when will it ocur? I've been looking for a good excuse to visit both of you guys!

[hardtimes]

blgitn,
REMINDER, the original question asked was ...the best way to add elect ign to my 31A. I , for one, am CONFUSED as heck, by this latest entry!
For example...Check my responses and find that I told requestor that I installed my pertronix module kit and HOW ..as the best way in my opinion/experience. I did say how pleased I am with the results. This (pleased and no problems in years) was my PROOF of 'the best way'. Who else answered the original question?

Again, I say that I'm CONFUSED, because I've read here that it's claimed that someone has 'dyno-ed the two systems and I know what the performance differences are'.
Well, I'd think that if someone unequivocally knew the answer to the original question....and had EVIDENCE of the best way to install an electronic system...would'nt it be in the interest of brevity and spirit of sharing information on this site...to record that answer to begin with ??
blgitn...mabe if you go observe and get evidence of the 'best way' to install electronic ign in a '31A, mabe you could/would share that info with the rest of us.

I've heard here and priorly on the old barn, that ...if you don't pay your 'dues' that you don't DESERVE such information..ever heard that? Geeze, an unnecessarily long thread , if someone had the proved answer and withheld !

[blgitn]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

blgitn,
reminder, the original question asked was ...the best way to add elect ign to my 31a. I , for one, am confused as heck, by this latest entry!
For example...check my responses and find that i told requestor that i installed my pertronix module kit and how ..as the best way in my opinion/experience. I did say how pleased i am with the results. This (pleased and no problems in years) was my proof of 'the best way'. Who else answered the original question?

Again, i say that i'm confused, because i've read here that it's claimed that someone has 'dyno-ed the two systems and i know what the performance differences are'.
Well, i'd think that if someone unequivocally knew the answer to the original question....and had evidence of the best way to install an electronic system...would'nt it be in the interest of brevity and spirit of sharing information on this site...to record that answer to begin with ??
Blgitn...mabe if you go observe and get evidence of the 'best way' to install electronic ign in a '31a, mabe you could/would share that info with the rest of us.

I've heard here and priorly on the old barn, that ...if you don't pay your 'dues' that you don't deserve such information..ever heard that? Geeze, an unnecessarily long thread , if someone had the proved answer and withheld !

ok.