white steam from breather and water tailpipe

[Rfd456]

hey guys, I have a fresh Flathead big bore in a 32 roadster. it has less than 70 miles on it. I noticed right after changing the oil that I'm getting white steam from the breather, especially after I shut the motor off. Antifreeze is also pushing out the overflow more than I would expect. There is little to no smoke from the exhaust,. But today an awful lot of water came out the right side tailpipe after I started it hot (I had just driven it for about 15 minutes.). I ran the test in the radiator to check for combustion. IT was clean. Edelbrock heads are toqued at 55 lbs. Everyone I know keeps telling me I'm just paranoid. But is seems like something is going on. Im at a total loss here.
any help is appreciated.
thanks in advance

[Tinker]

Maybe a 60 or 80 over would have been better? Block was pressure tested?

[Ggmac]

Pull the plugs and check for moisture . Are you sure its steam and not just oil vapor ?
Have you retorqued your heads , usually 3 hot cold cycles .
More info , your location , motor specs , who built the motor, when , type of gaskets , radiator should find its own level and stay , dontkeep refilling , check temp it runs at , vacuum gauge reading , is it steady ? Sorry , no coffee yet .

[richard crow]

re torque the heads

[Rfd456]

I retorqued the heads after 3 heat cycles. Car runs teady at 165 while driving. I will climb to 185 at idle. I used copper head gaskets. Let’s face it. I’m scared shirtless there is a crack in the block. But again, there is NO combustion gases in the radiator

[alanwoodieman]

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copper gaskets on aluminum heads?? do as Ggmac stated and see which one is leaking. are the head gaskets made for big bore?

[flatjack9]

Short drives can lead to moisture buildup. Drive it long enough to heat things up to evaporate any moisture. It doesn't sound like you really have a problem. You've read too many tales of woe.

[JM 35 Sedan]

This sounds exactly like the combustion/compression leak that I had last year on my way to Auburn, Indiana, driving my '35 fordor sedan. After dealing with this problem while in Indiana for the EFV-8 Club's CNM, and then driving back home to Maryland, I had to stop to add about a gallon of coolant every 75-100 miles. We later found the problem to be caused by a blown head gasket at #5 cylinder. Coolent was getting into that cylinder on the down stroke, super heated on the compression stroke, and forced out between the head and deck of block at the front of left side head as steam. This was apparent by seeing an area on the block and head that had been steam cleaned to a bare cast iron surface.
After removing the head, cleaning the deck, and mating surface of head, we used a Best Co. composition head gasket and bolted everything back together. I've put over 100 miles on the car since then, and all is now doing well. No coolant is being pushed out of the radiator overflow, and the engine is running much cooler at idle and when driving at normal highway speeds.

[deuce_roadster]

I've never had problems with Best brand composite head gaskets. I have 2 cars with Edelbrock heads, 1 car with stock aluminum heads, and 2 with stock iron heads.

You may be putting too much water in the radiator and the excess is getting pushed out.

Antifreeze coming out the tailpipe is not a good sign. Are your head gaskets correct for the bore? How big is your "big bore"?

[51 MERC-CT]

You say antifreeze is coming out the over flow, but is the liquid coming out the tailpipe antifreeze?
Touch your finger to the liquid and see if it is sweet.

[Rfd456]

UPDATE...last plug on passenger side appears oil soaked

[Rfd456]

I’d post a pic but have no idea how

[Rfd456]

Here is the plug. I hope it goes though

[Rfd456]

E132551D-C962-4F49-8397-E78B7F7B0E0A.jpegHere is my oil. It is champion, which is normally blue in color. Just the top of the bowl is blue now. The rest is green

[alanwoodieman]

well it is not that cylinder, water will wash off all the carbon. we had a 40 engine which the owner insisted on changing to aluminum heads, had leak problems on one side-we used best gaskets and used them again but torqued to a higher number and then we had no problems

[alanwoodieman]

do tell us the year of the engine and your general location

[51 MERC-CT]

Could be miss firing plug loading with unburned fuel.
Did you check to see if the liquid coming out of the tailpipe is antifreeze?

[Ggmac]

Originally Posted by Rfd456

hey guys, I have a fresh Flathead big bore in a 32 roadster. it has less than 70 miles on it. I noticed right after changing the oil that I'm getting white steam from the breather, especially after I shut the motor off. Antifreeze is also pushing out the overflow more than I would expect. There is little to no smoke from the exhaust,. But today an awful lot of water came out the right side tailpipe after I started it hot (I had just driven it for about 15 minutes.). I ran the test in the radiator to check for combustion. IT was clean. Edelbrock heads are toqued at 55 lbs. Everyone I know keeps telling me I'm just paranoid. But is seems like something is going on. Im at a total loss here.
any help is appreciated.
thanks in advance

If you have a compressor , rig up a tool made from a old gutted spark plug to an air line ( or use the hose from a compression tester ) add air to the cyl and listen in the oil galley , intake and tailpipe . To test tailpipe and intake both valves need to be closed . I usually add 80 lbs , but start low . Dont forget to look in the rad and have its cap off .

[Rfd456]

Sorry. I’m from upstate NY. The engine is a 51 8BA.
I did a compression test. All cylinders are at about 185 lb. I put new oil in it. Started it for like 5 minutes and oil is getting milky. Also antifreeze came out of right tail pipe

[Bruce_MO]

Just had to replace both head gaskets on my '51 8BA. Had a smaller problem than what it sounds like you're seeing. My first sign was foaming coolant, and it would always push a bit of foam out after a pretty hard run. But it never ran hot, and never saw any signs at the tailpipe. Did the "bubble test"... disconnected fan belts so water pumps weren't turning and filled the radiator to the neck. Started and revved up a bit and saw a number of large bubbles, indicating combustion gases getting to coolant. I had read that the analyzer system that looks for hydrocarbons in the antifreeze is not reliable, so I skipped that test. Found about two areas per side that looked like the sources of leaks. Also saw 3 cracks from water passages to bolt holes... ignored them. Fortunately, no other cracks worthy of concern. New gaskets and all is great. Hope you're fix is without further headaches!

[Rfd456]

It’s a wait and see thing now. I have new big bore gaskets coming. However, if I was a betting man, I’d. DY there’s gonna be a major catastrophic failure in the block.. is a crack

[Rfd456]

It sucks because of the time and money I have in vested in this engine. The guy who built it is t going to cover anything. Probably 70 miles on the damn thing.

[lotsagas4u]

Ceramic Block sealer

[flatford8]

“I retorqued the heads after 3 heat cycles.“ Did you torque after each time you got it hot or once after you heated 3 times?..... I’m hoping for the best outcome...... Mark

[Rfd456]

I’m pretty convinced the block is cracked in a cylinder wall. I’ll be pull the heads this week and will let you guys know. This was a 9k motor.

[Rfd456]

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Retororqed again yesterday. They are at 55lbs

[richard crow]

get a can of zotight problem over

[JSeery]

Have you done a compression test and a leak down test? Much easier than guessing.

Update: Ok, see you did the compression test (which looked good), now you need to do the leak down.

Was the block pressure tested before you started the machine work?

[flatjack9]

For 9K if someone didn't pressure test the block, I would be very upset.

[Rfd456]

It was supposed to have been tested and crack free. I think I have a crack in a cylinder wall. Pulling the heads will tell
More

[Bored&Stroked]

The one plug looks like it is not firing - change it and see what it does.

If you're getting milky oil, that is a bad sign -- either cracked block or blown head gasket or both. What overbore on the block? Hopefully you have just a blown head gasket - usually the plugs will be washed down as a result.

If you find a blown head gasket, then switch over to the composite Best Gasket head gaskets - they are really good (other then when you need to change a set! LOL). If you need additional review, feel free to DM me or give me a call - be happy to try to be your "Virtual Flathead Doctor".

[flatheadmurre]

I´m kinda amazed over all this low mileage high $ builds that people try and troubleshoot on distance.
If i had built the engine it was back to me for free and i sort it out...what i don´t accept is engines coming back in a basket with a warranty claim.
Doesn´t the engine builders take any kind of warranty repairs for 9K ???

[Rfd456]

Can you tell I’m pissed? Lol

[flatheadmurre]

Ouch didn´t know that guy was involved...
Eric must be carrying 4 sparetires whenever he parks out of sight nowdays...
Maybe you should have someone go over it and verify what is done and if correct...atleast pressuretest and verify boresize and clearances before worse things happen and you have to spend serious $ again...

[tubman]

Do we have an emoji for shaking your head?

[Ggmac]

Was it sleeved ? Hopefully its easy fix especially with the $ spent . Wishing you the best .
Keep us posted .

[Rfd456]

Thanks everyone. I’m thinking of selling it as is and building a nice merc motor.. It’s too bad that we have people like that in our hobby who take advantage of people. I’m not a rich guy who has a spare 9 grand lying around. Carla will get that cocksucker some day.
In the meantime if anyone wants a Skat crank and rods, Ross pistons, and a 400jr cam let me know.

[flatheadmurre]

Don´t give up yet !
Some of the known good guys to the rescue here ??
A couple of days work will probably sort this out...just has to be done right...
And even if the block is the issue it must be cheaper to adress it then start over from scratch.

[Rfd456]

Here is the cylinder with the issue. No visible crack but it had water in it and is all washed including valves

[Tinker]

Could be just a head gasket issue. Best gaskets are the best.


Could be something else. Where is your rebuilder at this point? Not involved? Usually not how it's done. You won't see a crack or an issue by eye.


Long block or short block from the builder? (heads and intake on or not)



.

[B-O-B]

Looks like head gasket to me.

[Rfd456]

Long block. It’s go cat. I told him and he’s not really interested. Would coolant get into the oil if I had a bad head gasket?

[Rfd456]

Also. I pulled my lower hoses off and only the drivers side of the engine drained. The passenger side is still full of coolant. Could the passages be clogged?

[Rfd456]

Here are a couple more photos of the cylinder in question

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by Rfd456

Long block. It’s go cat. I told him and he’s not really interested. Would coolant get into the oil if I had a bad head gasket?

Well go cat go dadeo.

No, less the rings were bad and you had a leaky headgasket. or a crack.


Milky oil??? You never mentioned the bore?



.

[Rfd456]

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Head gaskets are Best. They look perfect

[Rfd456]

My new oil turned to mayonnaise just doing a compression check on the motor

[Tinker]

You might have a internal issue. Sorry


Buy a set of new gaskets for 30$ and run them out. If it's still the same, well. Cheaper then a new rebuild at this point. If still bad, well... 30$ is the least of it.


Still strange you have decent compression? Might want to a leak down or name the builder.



.

[flatheadmurre]

If the coolant doesn´t drain there must be a serious clogging in the pump or something...
At this point some kind of "block bandaid" aproach comes to mind...not much to loose if you have a crack..
Whatever you descide don´t run the engine with water in the oil for any extended period of time.
I would pull the pump where coolant don´t drain and check what´s going on.
Then caustic cleaner in the block to get rid of oil...a lot of flushing...evaporust for whatever rust is left...a lot of flushing...block sealer !
Done right this won´t hurt your internal engine parts and may save the block...if not it´s mostly your work involved and not to much money.
Fingers crossed you can save the block...

[Rfd456]

thanks a lot. I will try this. Could this be an issue that cause all these problems I am having?

[Tinker]

Try a new overbore best gasket and spray tac it. Then go from there.

A block sealer may work too. Not that you spent 9k on a rebuild.

You may will still have issues. It's life dude.


.

[flatheadmurre]

Start by getting the coolant passages clear...get pump off...check that the block has been cleaned in the waterjackets.
One step at the time verifying what has been and not been done.

[flatheadmurre]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Try a new overbore best gasket and spray tac it. Then go from there.


You will still have issues. It's life dude.


.

If the coolant doesn´t drain out of one blockside adressing the coolantflow first maybe ??
You are way to fast here man

[Tinker]

You also. I edited my post as you were posting Still hopeful a gasket change might do it. Milky oil is subject. Think not


I'm going off this is a total rebuild. Clean tested block.

[flatheadmurre]

But as i read it coolant is still in one side of the block after bottom hoses was removed ?
That means there is a serious blocking in the pump or block on that side...that must be adressed before anything else.

[Tinker]

I agree. I think there is a lot of issues going on here for a rebuild. They keep changing. One thing at a time would be my suggestion. I might think the block was never cleaned or checked (for a rebuilt block).

[Rfd456]

Ill be pulling off the pumps tomorrow and will post results. I am at a total loss for words. I WAS a total rebuild. I will post the receipt for the motor.

[Tinker]

Water pumps aren't putting water in the cylinder, one thing at a time. Only way water gets into the combustion chamber ever is a head gasket or a crack. Best of luck.

[Rfd456]

Here is the receipt for the rebuild

[Tinker]

I'm not clicking on a pdf nor should anyone here. Besides it doesn't matter. Best of luck!!!

[Rfd456]

I am pulling the pumps first in order to figure out the coolant problem. Starting with that seems to be the most imperative problem. I can’t address anything else until that is done

[Rfd456]

Sorry I’ll try taking a pic of it

[Rfd456]

How’s this

[Tinker]

Picture is small. Very quick though.

Motor is leaking into the cylinder. Not sure how that is relevant to the water pump. When you run hot maybe.

[Rfd456]

I went to drain the block of the coolant and the passenger side didn’t drain. The guys a couple replies earlier said to address that first

[petehoovie]

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* $9,000 Total, Shipping by GCS (720) 284-1790 2019 Go Cat Speedshop LLC, Denver, Colorado.

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by Rfd456

Here are a couple more photos of the cylinder in question

This doesn't look like a rebuild motor, not even new pistons and rehoned cylinders. Maybe a go cat issue, maybe I would not. I hope you get this solved. Hate crooks. I'd be inclined to be disappointed. Best of luck!

[flatheadmurre]

Starting to think a bit looking at the buildsheet...you are running aluminum pumps i suspect from seeing polished pumps...
So pure water and aluminum...maybe that is one of the issues clogging.

[Ggmac]

One pic looks like the head gasket was leaking . But you shouldnt have oil in the water unless the rings werent gapped properly or are cracked , but you have decebt compression ?
Blocked water passage , got me on that one , do you have a temp gauge on each cyl head ?
DONT give up . It could be any easy fix . Easy being a possible sleeve thats not sealed , and a head gasket .
The pic is the one with the studs removed . Were your heads checked for warp ? If you have a straight edge check the head from the bad cylinder side .

[richard crow]

look at those studs there some type of after market the shoulders seem very long are you using stock heads or alum heads if the shoulder is to long you will get torque reading but gasket will not be crused enought make sure you have enougnt pull down on those threads drop the heads on & see how much thread is exposed some times there is a simple answer .

[Rfd456]

Those are ARP studs.

[Bored&Stroked]

How long ago was this engine built and how many miles on it? To me it does not look like a fresh new build - but hard to tell with the size and resolution of your photos. Also, I don't believe I see any 'relief' being done between the valves and the bores - this was in the build sheet, but it wasn't done. I wonder how many other things were not done - or maybe you have a used engine? If you blow a head gasket, you can still get water down into the oil - as the rings have end-gaps and the water will run through them if it blows and then the engine sits.

I'd love to see some bigger and better/hi-resolution pictures of the intake ports, the cylinder walls and the deck surface. If it was mine, I'd pull all the studs and really clean the deck surfaces well - they should be super clean before you start the new head-gasket assembly process. Make sure you use a high-quality stud sealer on the studs as you put them back in, with anti-seize on the sides of them and thread torque-lube on the fine threads.

Note: You have ARP studs - they are the best you can run with one of these engines.

Where are you located? If you need additional help, just send me a PM.

[flatjack9]

There is a small drain hole in the water pump that must be clogged. Maybe poke in there to see if you can't open it up. Shouldn't be clogged in a new build. Very suspicious.

[deuce_roadster]

I don't see how the cylinders could look that bad after 70 miles. I think you were given an engine that was not rebuilt but were charged for one that was. Maybe even a junk one to begin with. Take the pan off and see how clean it is and if there are H beam rods in it. Sorry that it appears you dealt with a crook. Sounds like the person is as bad as the one in Oregon.
If indeed there is a new 4 1/4 crank and rods etc in there I would harvest all the parts I could and start over from scratch checking the block first with a reputable builder.. All the parts even if new need to be checked since oil/water was run for lubrication so take it ALL apart. If it were me I would have to see everything in there.
Good luck, it seems you used up your bad luck.

[Rfd456]

I appreciate the honesty. And I agree it has to be torn apart. So far the only thing I know for a fact is that it has the big pistons in it.

[Ggmac]

No way that head gasket was sealing . Please clean and recheck with new gaskets . Take a pic with the gaskets laid on . Water will find its way to the pan . If it was mine i would not tear into it completely . You had good compression , oil pressure , no nocks or noise . Clean everything , lube the cylinders after cleaning and try the large bore gaskets .

[petehoovie]

I've never had good experiences with metal clad head gaskets....

[B-O-B]

What's with the peened block, also Best brand head gaskets? As stated earlier ported & relieved . Something isn't right.

[P F Rooney]

The combustion chamber doesn’t look like it is ported and relieved. I’m sure more knowledgeable guys on here can speak up and confirm or not.

[Black Fifty]

Unfortunately, this "shop" has been discussed previously on the Barn.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...cat+speed+shop

Fingers crossed that it works out OK.
Mike

[Bored&Stroked]

Now this is going to sound bad . . . but given all that we've heard as of late about your engine builder, you may be "lucky" to have an engine at all. Seems many guys have paid for engines and have received nothing - for years.

So I'll be positive - with a bit of work, maybe this will turn out okay in the end! Best of Luck!

[Black Fifty]

Tinker had put together a list of vendors that probably live up to our expectations regarding services and products for our beloved Fords. I saved the URL to my bookmarks for future reference. It's not all inclusive, but between the list and the add-ons in that thread it could save many us from headaches down the road.

Happy Memorial Day, All!
Mike

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=269580

[Rfd456]

Thanks again.. and you are right. At least I have the internals. He’s a piece of shit for not reaching out. Like I said earlier, I don’t expect any money back. How about helping me with a bare block ffs?

[JSeery]

Are you sure what the internals are? Based on the photo posted of the top of the block, it doesn't seem to match the billing sheet posted. You are going to have to check to see what you have. Or, repair the head gaskets and see if you can drive it. One check you can do is measure the stroke, that is fairly simple to do.

[flatjack9]

I'm curious as to why you went with this guy when you were warned about him in one of those posts that Black Fifty highlighted?

[Rfd456]

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pan is coming off this week

[tubman]

Good Luck. I hope things turn out well for you.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Rfd456

pan is coming off this week

Be sure to keep us updated. I know this is not pleasant for you, be it is an interesting thread!

[Lanny]

* New Scat 4-1/4” Crankshaft
------------------------------------


It would only take a minuet or so to measure the stroke, to see if is 4 1/4".
Please let us know what it measures. It would help clarify what he sold you.





.

[Black Fifty]

Originally Posted by Rfd456

I am pulling the pumps first in order to figure out the coolant problem. Starting with that seems to be the most imperative problem. I can’t address anything else until that is done

Rfd456,
Did you remove the passenger side water pump? Was there coolant behind it?

Plenty of good people here to try to help you out. As B&S stated, keep us updated.

Regards,
Mike

[Will D]

Originally Posted by flatjack9

I'm curious as to why you went with this guy when you were warned about him in one of those posts that Black Fifty highlighted?

As am I, something seems odd here... Rfd456 after inquiring about Eric you even advise people not to go to him, then you take your motor to him to rebuild?

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...cat+speed+shop

Hope you get it all figured out.

[Rfd456]

Hi. Sorry it took so long to get back. I took the water pumps off. The water did indeed drain. I’d like to stare something here before getting into that. I, in my embarrassment, had already given Eric the money for the motor and hadn’t gotten it. Being humiliated for my stupidity of prepaying caused my deceit and I apologize for that. I did finally get the engine after I drove 1600 miles to pick it up even though I paid for shipping. So that’s the story about that.
Back to my other problem. After taking off the pumps the water did drain. However, I noticed he plugged the top hole on the pumps. I have the newer style heads. I thought the older style were the ones that you are supposed to plug up.

[Rfd456]

The it is a 4 1/4 stroke. I measured

[Black Fifty]

I looked at the Go Cat site and the guy from Oregon a couple of years ago. These flashy sites tell us what we want to hear and believe, so they suck us in. You had the stones to admit it, so hats off to you.

Sounds like you have the newer 8BA pumps. I believe the top hole was added to aid cooling on these engines over the earlier designs. Don't know why that was plugged on yours. The older ones used oil from the block to lubricate the bushings on the pumps, hence the holes in the front of the older blocks that would need to be plugged if using newer pumps.


As stated earlier,

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

Start by getting the coolant passages clear...get pump off...check that the block has been cleaned in the waterjackets.
One step at the time verifying what has been and not been done.

Mike

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Rfd456

The it is a 4 1/4 stroke. I measured

Well, at least that is good news!