Mechanical Brakes

[William Kelchner]

I have hydraulic brakes on my 30 Roadster - car was bought with them already installed. I replaced everything years ago, m/c, brake shoes and lines. The brake lines that were on the car were copper .

I have entertained going back to mechanical brakes from time to time and if I recall the price tag would be at least $5k. The car stops ok but single master cylinder systems scare me - had a brake line under the body of my 64 convertible blowout rolling into an intersection right after I bought it - my knees still knock thinking about that episode.

Anyway going back to mechanical looks like a daunting undertaking not to mention a bit costly. I plan all my stops well in advance now with a bail out option.

[Phil]

Had that happen in a 64 convertible I once had. Lucky to have a green light drove 6 blocks made 4 turns rolled to a stop in to my driveway. My passenger had no idea what had happened till told her.
I am big on keeping the cars original. That being said what are the chances of adapting a dual chamber master cylinder? Perhaps one off a newer forget car. They are pretty compact. And split the front and back.
Goust a thought, Phil

[Brother Hesekiel]

William,

I translated your post into this: I have a Mercedes with a 6-cylinder inline motor. It runs fine, but it scares me that it has all the cylinders in one row, which is far from a V8, so I consider going back to a V4 engine.

My daily driver is a 1962 Volvo PV544 with single brake system. The car is quite famous in Volvo circles and has its own 7-page Web site:

http://www.californiaclassix.com/Bernard/PV544-1.html

With 400K miles on the clock, I did not feel unsafe a single time because I doesn't have a dual master cylinder. But I did hammer my Model T with mechanical brakes into a tree on Memorial Day 2013 because of total brake failure. Since that day, neither my wife nor I will ever ride in a car with mechanical brakes or rear brakes only again. Hence, my Model A has juice brakes and it was one of the main reasons for me to buy it.

That said, if you rather have a dual system, all you'll need is a $150 master and $100 worth of new lines and a few hours to install them. Problem solved.

The key to a well working brake system is maintenance, no matter what system you have. Luckily the Model A has two independent brake systems right from the factory.

[RonC]

$5,000 to convert back to mechanical brakes? How did you come up with that price? Seems very high.

[Patrick L.]

A dual master cylinder is nice, but, A single is fine while keeping the rest of the system in excellent condition, that is most important. It appears to me that you're kinda missing the most important thing on your car, and, thats the copper brake lines. They gotta go ! They are illegal, and, for good reason. Replacing them with steel and good flex lines is in order and probably the least expensive way to go. But, going back to good operating mechanicals is a good thought.
Ooopps, re read the post. I'm now assuming you have installed steel lines.

[William Kelchner]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by RonC

$5,000 to convert back to mechanical brakes? How did you come up with that price? Seems very high.

I inquired 3-4 years back and was quoted it would be in that ballpark and checking what parts of the system were available retail.

[William Kelchner]

Originally Posted by Patrick L.

A dual master cylinder is nice, but, A single is fine while keeping the rest of the system in excellent condition, that is most important. It appears to me that you're kinda missing the most important thing on your car, and, thats the copper brake lines. They gotta go ! They are illegal, and, for good reason. Replacing them with steel and good flex lines is in order and probably the least expensive way to go. But, going back to good operating mechanicals is a good thought.
Ooopps, re read the post. I'm now assuming you have installed steel lines.

Oh yeah they were replaced with steel...

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Brother Hesekiel

William,

I translated your post into this: I have a Mercedes with a 6-cylinder inline motor. It runs fine, but it scares me that it has all the cylinders in one row, which is far from a V8, so I consider going back to a V4 engine.

My daily driver is a 1962 Volvo PV544 with single brake system. The car is quite famous in Volvo circles and has its own 7-page Web site:

http://www.californiaclassix.com/Bernard/PV544-1.html

With 400K miles on the clock, I did not feel unsafe a single time because I doesn't have a dual master cylinder. But I did hammer my Model T with mechanical brakes into a tree on Memorial Day 2013 because of total brake failure. Since that day, neither my wife nor I will ever ride in a car with mechanical brakes or rear brakes only again. Hence, my Model A has juice brakes and it was one of the main reasons for me to buy it.

That said, if you rather have a dual system, all you'll need is a $150 master and $100 worth of new lines and a few hours to install them. Problem solved.

The key to a well working brake system is maintenance, no matter what system you have. Luckily the Model A has two independent brake systems right from the factory.

W O W Really?? It is my opinion NONE of this is really factual -nor applicable information for others to base their own decisions from.

For the record, not ALL Model-A's had two independent braking systems from the factory so we really shouldn't get that rumor started. I believe the exact circumstances of your accident was caused by a worn-out Ruckstell rear axle that malfunctioned as Model-T's came with a very suitable braking system mounted in the transmission. Many of us have added auxiliary mechanical brakes to supplement our driving and have toured many safe miles without hitting a tree!! The reason most add the aux. brakes is because we want to add speed too. I might add that it has always been known that when a Model-T is outfitted with an aux. rear axle or transmission, then aux. brakes must be fitted too. You chose not to include those. Therefore the mechanical brakes were NOT the cause of your accident! It was driver error being the primary cause!!


William, based on my own experiences, the cost for parts to do the actual conversion is closer to $3k, and based on most people's reports will tell you the performance of those is superior to hydraulics. Performance can be defined not only in braking ability, but also includes ease of maintenance, longevity, and upkeep. It also should be noted that many hydraulic conversions have been poorly installed where pedal ratio was incorrect, mounts were suspect, and even improper master cylinder sizing. These can still lead to unsatisfactory braking even if one were to install new lines or refresh the master cylinder.

[William Kelchner]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

W O W Really?? It is my opinion this really factual -nor applicable information others to base their own decisions from. For the record, not ALL Model-A's had two independent braking systems from the factory so we really shouldn't get that rumor started. While I do not know the exact circumstances of your accident, Model-T's came with a very suitable braking system mounted in the transmission. Many of us have added auxiliary mechanical brakes to supplement our driving and have toured many safe miles without hitting a tree!! The reason most add the aux. brakes is because we want to add speed too. Therefore I highly doubt the mechanical brakes were the sole cause of your accident without driver error being the primary cause!!


William, based on my own experiences, the cost for parts to do the actual conversion is closer to $3k, and based on most people's reports will tell you the performance of those is superior to hydraulics. Performance can be defined not only in braking ability, but also includes ease of maintenance, longevity, and upkeep. It also should be noted that many hydraulic conversions have been poorly installed where pedal ratio was incorrect, mounts were suspect, and even improper master cylinder sizing. These can still lead to unsatisfactory braking even if one were to install new lines or refresh the master cylinder.

Thanks - I'm sure whomever did the conversion is guilty of some of those items considering copper lines were used.. They were on the car all we did was get rid of the lines, new w/c's, master cyl, shoes & lines, etc.

I guess one of my motivating factors is the lingering vision of my 4,000 lb convertible rolling in on a little Subru wagon sitting at that red light..
High on the list, as you mentioned, is ease of maintenance, upkeep etc. Guess I'll start collecting components for this project - many of which are made of that metal "unobtainum" I'm sure.

[denis4x4]

Eight or nine years ago I sold all of parts necessary to install mechanical brakes on an A for $1200 and the buyer was very pleased with the price. I think he was assembling a car from parts and pieces and this gave him everything in one package.

I have one A with a dual MC and another one with a single MC and never give it a second thought. However, if you decide to replace the flex hoses, I would recommend that you put longer hoses on the rear wheels so that you can R&R the engine and transmission without breaking the hydraulic system. Eliminates a mess and having to bleed the system.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

If you are referring to your Model-A as the "4,000 lb convertible", I'm pretty sure you are off by more than 30%. Contact any professional Model-A part restorer and they should have what you are looking for to make the conversion. An option to that is to contact your local club too asking for the individual pieces. I can assure you that none of it is "unobtainable".

[William Kelchner]

Thanks Brent. No I was referring to the weight of my Impala convertible. Was just doing some cursory research and see a good portion of major parts is exchange. Just one question--are any of the cross shafts welded or are they bolted to the frame into bushings? Guess time to start making a list which appears will be a project in itself. Cheers

[silversink]

all you have to do is find someone that is doing a change to Hyd. and do some trading.

[William Kelchner]

Yes the hunt will be starting soon.

[Brian T]

Would it not be cheaper to find a rolling chassis ?, remove and go thru the brake parts at your leisure for needed repairs then do the conversion, you should be able to sell off the frame and the other parts for a few bucks.

[William Kelchner]

Originally Posted by denis4x4

Eight or nine years ago I sold all of parts necessary to install mechanical brakes on an A for $1200 and the buyer was very pleased with the price. I think he was assembling a car from parts and pieces and this gave him everything in one package.

I have one A with a dual MC and another one with a single MC and never give it a second thought. However, if you decide to replace the flex hoses, I would recommend that you put longer hoses on the rear wheels so that you can R&R the engine and transmission without breaking the hydraulic system. Eliminates a mess and having to bleed the system.

Wonder if he ever used the stuff

[William Kelchner]

Originally Posted by Brian T

Would it not be cheaper to find a rolling chassis ?, remove and go thru the brake parts at your leisure for needed repairs then do the conversion, you should be able to sell off the frame and the other parts for a few bucks.

Yes thats probably the way to go. I will be lurking locally..tnx

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Brian T

Would it not be cheaper to find a rolling chassis ?, remove and go thru the brake parts at your leisure for needed repairs then do the conversion, you should be able to sell off the frame and the other parts for a few bucks.

Doing a visual, the bulk of the $3k is actually paying for new parts, -or paying for the machine work necessary in restoring used parts. Just making a guess, I'd say that $250 buys all of the core parts outright.

[BlueSunoco]

Brent, is it worthwhile to have a machine shop weld up clevis pins and braze in the rod openings, and machine them back to spec? Are the available new parts from the 'ggod' parts houses (Snyder's-Bratton's-Bert's) up to the originals today, better than say 15 years ago?

Just wondering.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

My opinion is the restored originals are better however if you must pay a shop to make the fixtures and get set up for it, chances are the price is not worth it. At that point, the repros are probably a better value however the biggest issue is the original brake rods had rolled threads. Modern threads on brake rods are cut. Therefore one needs to make sure the threads are properly matched and jambed.