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Old 05-24-2021, 05:35 PM   #1
Marshall V. Daut
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Default Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

Yes, hydraulic brakes in a 1932 Coupe! Please read my earlier posted thread today about the 1932 Coupe clutch chattering follow-up before wading into these brake questions. That will provide some background information to help answer my questions.

In a nutshell, my friend’s newly-acquired ’32 five-window Coupe had been converted to 1939-42 hydraulic brakes – and it wasn’t a pretty job, nor a functional one. Despite adjusting the brakes per past “Fordbarn” postings, on-line videos and Ford’s own instructions, we still have ZERO brakes. They have been bled multiple times with no improvement. Today I removed all four drums to see if perhaps brake fluid was leaking from the cylinders. All four were dry. I did note that all eight brake shoes are badly worn, which may be a contributing problem if the drums have been turned too many times. But using the top adjusters, I was still able to lock up the brake drums while turning the wrench. So, we should have at least SOME braking action. We don’t. The brake pedal goes to the floor with no resistance.

Please look at the four accompanying photos of each backing plate. While one person pushed in the brake pedal, I watched the shoe action. Only the left rear showed any signs of significant shoe movement – and only the back shoe moved. On the other three backing plates, it was the forward shoes that moved, but they barely moved - and I mean BARELY! I had to watch the action a couple times to discern even that little motion. Obviously, unless the shoes move outward, there will be no brakes.

O.K. Now for my questions – and please remember that I am Model A and T guy, not early V8, especially not where hydraulic brakes are concerned. This is all new territory for me. I'm just trying to help my friend.
(1) Shouldn’t BOTH shoes move outward at the top when the brake pedal is depressed? Only one shoe per backing plate makes any kind of an attempt at movement.
(2) How far should the top of the shoe(s) extend when activated?
(3) Why do the front shoes try to move on three of the backing plates, but only the rear shoe on the left rear plate?
(4) Should we replace all four cylinders?
(5) What obvious installation problems do you see in these photos? Are the backing plates oriented correctly?
(6) What can you suggest is causing the brakes to behave like this, if the previous observations are not the reason?

Let’s start with these questions before I move on to nitty-gritty adjustment questions.

Thanks!
Marshall
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Old 05-24-2021, 06:20 PM   #2
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

Just so we have all of the information we need to start with, do you know what kind of master cylinder you have? '39-'48 Ford, something else? Also be aware that there are some replacement wheel cylinders out there with improperly drilled fluid passages that cause beaucoup problems. Those look new enough to have been replaced recently (which could be good or bad).
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Old 05-24-2021, 06:37 PM   #3
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

With the drums off, which shoe moves first when pressing the pedal depends on which shoe offers the least friction resistance. Hold of block the shoe that moves and the other shoe will move with additional pedal. So, to answer your questions:
1) No. With the drum off the shoe with least friction will move. With all drums off probably only one shoe of the whole lot would move.
2) With drums off, the question is irrelevant. Total of all shoe movement equals the total hydraulic fluid movement from the master cylinder.
3) See answer to 1
4) No. Brake cylinders are not leaking
5) Something does not look right on the third picture - left rear; e-brake lever is out of place, and the lower shoe bolt with a cotter key is not right.
6) I suggest you do the full brake adjustment, including the shoe eccentric at the bottom. Leave the top adjuster at the point where you hear just a little scrape. Do not use full stroke bleeding the brakes. Be sure the brake pedal comes full up and the push rod to the master cylinder gaps a bit from the master cylinder piston. Use speed bleeders and/or be sure to close the bleeder on the cylinder while fluid is still coming out, certainly before the brake pedal is allowed to return up.
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Old 05-24-2021, 06:57 PM   #4
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

I can see a few issues, none of which would stop the brakes from working, but they just aren't "right".
Both rear wheel cylinders are back to front (and need to be swapped side to side).
One rear brake assembly is a 42-48, all others are 39-41.
It would be nice if the front wheel that has the bolt on steering arm could be fitted with a grease shield.

As the 32 is not naturally a hydraulic equipped car, the master cylinder installation is more likely to be the problem area. All the wheel cylinders/drums/shoes etc are common to all hydraulic fords of the era and should be easy to troubleshoot. Basically for this exercise adjust them all up tight for the bleeding procedure.
So please show the master cylinder setup, the type of cylinder, the bracket, the mods to the pedal, the pushrod etc.
Has the 32 pedal been retained? Is it modified? Are relay levers involved.
Without seeing that end of the setup it is impossible to suggest what might be the problem.
I would suggest the car needs to be gone through by an expert on the subject at hand.
Mart.
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Old 05-24-2021, 07:12 PM   #5
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

.

Hey Marshall....No reason to feel badly, especially your first time around. Of course, these are Henry's infamous "Lockheed" type brakes. They are not 'self-energizing' like the later "Bendix" types are.

I see a couple of problems with your set-up right off the bat. On Lockheed brakes, the LARGE half of the wheel cylinder ALWAYS faces the FRONT of vehicle....your rears are BACKWARDS.

The linings on the shoes are normally a long lining and a shorter lining on the brake shoes. On Lockheed brakes, the LONG lining goes toward the FRONT of vehicle...and SHORT to REAR! To make it simple to remember, the LONG shoe and the BIG end of cylinder toward the FRONT of vehicle.

Your linings are very thin, to the point that they NEED to be replaced. That is part of your problem. Plus, when you adjust the shoes, they need to be adjusted where they JUST drag (touch) the drum....very little clearance. Below is a CORRECT, RIGHT REAR backing plate. Left rear would be a mirror image.




The second picture is a FRONT, LEFT backing plate, correctly set-up. The RIGHT, Front would be a mirror image.





Get those bits properly oriented, along with some newly re-lined shoes, and let us know how it's going. These brakes can SOMETIMES be a pain in the butt to get properly adjusted and properly bled, but persistence pays off. We're here to help!

One more little hint....DON'T be applying the brake pedal without the drums in place to limit the piston travel in each cylinder. It is possible to shoot the pistons and cups right out the end of each cylinder. The drums MUST be in place to get a firm pedal when shoes contact and push against the drum. DD





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Old 05-24-2021, 08:44 PM   #6
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

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Marshall,
The pictures show how I mounted my '39 master cylinder without any additional holes. I used a stock '32 pedal assembly and bolted a steel plate to the K member so I didn't have to weld to the frame. This might give you something to think about. I relocated the battery to the passenger side but with todays smaller batteries I might have put it elsewhere.

Charlie Stephens
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Old 05-24-2021, 11:41 PM   #7
Marshall V. Daut
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

Wow! My brain is in overload mode! Terrific information from you guys. Thank you all! I have a lot to mull over - and even more to correct on this car before we can expect good brakes.

I'll take more photos tomorrow of the master cylinder and the relocation of the later brake and clutch pedals, which have been a pain the *ss because of their placement. Both pedals come ("flop" is a better verb) all the way back without the upper floorboard in place. Apparently the "mechanic" who made the conversion decided the upper floorboard would be the upper stop to the pedals. Is that correct? The brake pedal goes so far down that it hits the bellhousing. I'm not even sure it travels far enough to provide a firm pedal.

When I pulled the drums and saw the short brake linings, I figured that was part of the problem: broken shoe linings. But then I read in V8COOPMAN's reply that a short and a long lining is correct. Why did Ford give up that extra brake shoe surface area? 'Seems like a lot of lost braking efficiency when all backing plates are considered.

I guess I understand about only one shoe moving when the drums are off and the brake pedal is depressed. By why? Isn't the point of the wheel cylinder with two ports to move both brake shoes outward? Why would that only happen with the drums in place? And why did only one brake shoe move at all when we depressed the pedal? Worn linings notwithstanding, shouldn't there be SOME noticeable movement of at least one shoe? Truly, it was near impossible to see any movement of any shoe on three backing plates. Why would the shoes magically be pushed out when the drums are in place, but not when they are off? As you can see, this hydraulic brake system is absolutely alien to a Model A/T guy like me.

We will order new brake shoe linings from Dennis Carpenter. I have the tools needed to remove the old linings and install new ones, the same as I have done many time on Model A shoes. We'll also have to swap the rear wheel cylinders to get their proper orientation. Is there a problem that one of the backing plates is a 1942-48 design while the other three are 1939-42? Perhaps after viewing the photos I'll take tomorrow, it will be recommended to replace an incorrect master cylinder?

Marshall

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Old 05-25-2021, 02:20 AM   #8
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut View Post
Wow! My brain is in overload mode! Terrific information from you guys. Thank you all! I have a lot to mull over - and even more to correct on this car before we can expect good brakes.

I'll take more photos tomorrow of the master cylinder and the relocation of the later brake and clutch pedals, which have been a pain the *ss because of their placement. Both pedals come ("flop" is a better verb) all the way back without the upper floorboard in place. Apparently the "mechanic" who made the conversion decided the upper floorboard would be the upper stop to the pedals. Is that correct? The brake pedal goes so far down that it hits the bellhousing. I'm not even sure it travels far enough to provide a firm pedal.

When I pulled the drums and saw the short brake linings, I figured that was part of the problem: broken shoe linings. But then I read in V8COOPMAN's reply that a short and a long lining is correct. Why did Ford give up that extra brake shoe surface area? 'Seems like a lot of lost braking efficiency when all backing plates are considered.

I guess I understand about only one shoe moving when the drums are off and the brake pedal is depressed. By why? Isn't the point of the wheel cylinder with two ports to move both brake shoes outward? Why would that only happen with the drums in place? And why did only one brake shoe move at all when we depressed the pedal? Worn linings notwithstanding, shouldn't there be SOME noticeable movement of at least one shoe? Truly, it was near impossible to see any movement of any shoe on three backing plates. Why would the shoes magically be pushed out when the drums are in place, but not when they are off? As you can see, this hydraulic brake system is absolutely alien to a Model A/T guy like me.

We will order new brake shoe linings from Dennis Carpenter. I have the tools needed to remove the old linings and install new ones, the same as I have done many time on Model A shoes. We'll also have to swap the rear wheel cylinders to get their proper orientation. Is there a problem that one of the backing plates is a 1942-48 design while the other three are 1939-42? Perhaps after viewing the photos I'll take tomorrow, it will be recommended to replace an incorrect master cylinder?

Marshall
Marshall, When the hydraulic fluid enters the wheel cylinder under pressure the piston with the least resistance will move out pushing that brake shoe out. When the resistance increases the other piston will start to move outward pushing the other shoe out.When both shoes touch the drum the pressure will rise and be equal on both pistons.

If both piston and shoes had the same resistance they would move at the same time.
Once all the shoes contact the drums the pressure will equalize on all pistons, that's why there called "self equalizing".

Anyone as sharp as you are on A's and T's is not going to have a problem with hydraulic brakes.

Bill
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Old 05-25-2021, 03:33 AM   #9
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

.

Marshall.....Here is but one good example of some of the weird situations that you can find (or NOT find) that can cause you grief, and also cause for scratching your head. Some folks are finding the BIG, lower 'locating' hole to be punched in the wrong location in SOME AFTERMARKET shoes. Try to make sure you get original shoes marked with "Ford" script, which have been re-lined. The 'goofy' ones will never center themselves correctly for proper drum contact. And, not ALL aftermarket shoes are bad, either.





The Hydraulic LOCKHEED backing plates used on Fords came in TWO styles....1939-'41 (Middle AND LOWER shoe adjustment points), and the 1942-'48 (MIDDLE-plate shoe adjustment points ONLY).


EARLY 1939-'41 on LEFT....LATE on RIGHT






1939-'41 BOTTOM Adjustment PINS in Plates





The '42-'48 are easier to adjust as a result of doing away with the LOWER adjustment points. I have never seen "MIXED" adjustment style backing plates used on one car, but they ought to 'work' OK if both are precisely adjusted. Myself, I would look for a "fourth", matching backing plate. They are easy to find.

Lockheeds are NON-Self-Energizing. They are dependent upon hydraulic pressure ONLY for the force applied to the drum. It is said that the FRONT shoe does the majority of the braking with Lockheeds while in FORWARD motion, hence...the LONG Forward shoe.


"BENDIX" 'Self-Energizing' Brakes


"Bendix" brakes work on a whole different principle than the "Lockheeds" do. And they are a whole lot more-efficient than Lockheeds, too. Henry Ford was frugal (cheap), and only used the EXPENSIVE "Bendix" brakes on his early, HEAVY Lincoln Zephyrs because the Lockheeds wouldn't stop the Lincolns. Henry had to pay royalties to Bendix to use EACH set on a car. Ford was the last 'Major' to switch over to hydraulic brakes, and one of the last to go to "Bendix" brakes entirely.

If you'll look at a "Bendix" set-up like BELOW, you'll see that there are several features that differentiate the "Lockheeds" and the "Bendix" brakes. Note how high the wheel cylinder is on the Lockheed plate. On the Lockheeds, the wheel cylinder is all that separates the top of the shoes. On a Bendix backing plate, the cylinder is lower, with a large, 'fixed' anchor pin separating the shoes at the top. That ANCHOR Pin is strategically located so that it precisely centers the two shoes in the drum.

The BOTTOM of the shoes are not 'LOCATED' at all. They are separated (yet connected) by a floating "STAR" adjuster wheel which is free to move circumferentially around the imaginary center of the axle, as brake pressure is applied. With "Bendix" brakes, the FRONT shoe will be SHORTER than the REAR (Long) shoe. The REAR shoe is the shoe that does the most braking in a "Bendix" set-up. As pressure is applied to the shoes, the FORWARD-Rotating drum (via the shoes making contact with the drum) begins to 'ROTATE' the FRONT shoe in an arc...DOWNWARD...which pushes the 'Star-wheel' adjuster toward the REAR, which forces the BOTTOM of the REAR shoe against the rear of the drum, and sort of JAMS the REAR shoe aggressively against the drum, increasing friction when more pedal pressure is applied. You must remember that the TOP of the REAR shoe CAN NOT move at all because it is located 'HARD' against the stationery ANCHOR Pin at the top of the plate. It is this 'WEDGING' of the rear shoe against the rear of the drum, and the rotation of the drum itself driving that REAR shoe hard against the drum, that constitutes (and causes) the brilliant "SELF-Energizing" feature of "Bendix" Brakes. Here's to hoping that my meager, 2nd-grade explanation is comprehendable. DD


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Old 05-25-2021, 06:22 AM   #10
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

V8: Thanks for posting that great information about braking.
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Old 05-25-2021, 11:59 AM   #11
Marshall V. Daut
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More very helpful information to edumacate me. Thanks. I am learning how little I know about these monsters.

I apologize if I am beginning sound like a broken record (remember those???), but I need to get straight in my mind how the hydraulic action operates the upper brake shoes. In post #3 by Drolston, he states: "With all drums off probably only one shoe of the whole lot would move." Recall in my original posting above, I mentioned that I saw only one brake shoe move to any significant degree when the pedal was depressed. That was the back shoe on the left rear backing plate. The other seven either didn't move at all or only minutely did so. Drolston says that's what is to be expected. Does that mean I should only expect one shoe out of eight to move significantly while the other seven do nothing? Will it always be the left rear back shoe or does it change? Should I expect to ONLY see one shoe move when the pedal is depressed? Of course, what I am after here is whether the wheel cylinders are doing their job.

I have requested that the shop mechanic remove the two rear wheel cylinders so that I can photograph them and post the photos here for comment. Tubman suggested these may be defective or incorrect wheel cylinders. The Dennis Carpenter catalog from 2018 states each wheel cylinder costs about $49.00, which I assume has increased in price since then. The shop owner says he can buy wheel cylinders for around $15 locally. I am guessing they can't be correct and knowing how the previous owner of this '32 Coupe showed very little interest in spending money on his car, he probably bought those $15 cylinders. If I post photos of the removed cylinders, can anyone here tell me if they are correct? Or do they need to be disassembled in order to tell? I have found that in life, the cheaper parts never work. I suspect these are the wrong wheel cylinders.

New brake shoe linings have been ordered from the Dennis catalog.

I can't go to the shop today to take the requested photos of the pedals and master cylinder due to other plans. But I will do so tomorrow morning.

Marshall

Last edited by Marshall V. Daut; 05-25-2021 at 01:04 PM. Reason: forgotten word
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Old 05-25-2021, 12:48 PM   #12
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

There is a thread around somewhere that shows the defective wheel cylinders. Since yours are almost new, it might be worth while to disassemble one and check it if we can find that thread.

My personal opinion is that $15 cylinders purchased locally (from a place like NAPA) have a better chance of being correct than a set from one of the commercial Ford parts dealers who have them made in China and then charge a premium price.
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Old 05-25-2021, 01:26 PM   #13
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

I get why you are stuck on this. With mechanical brakes, when the pedal goes down, all shoes move at the same time.

Thought experiment: If you were blowing on two straws, one in water and one in molasses, where would the bubbles come out? The fluid (air in this case) would all come up in the water, none in the molasses. It would follow the path of least resistance.

As the pedal is pushed down the pressure in the whole system will go up. The resulting flow will follow the path of least resistance. When the pressure gets high enough to over come friction within the shoe with least friction, that shoe will move. It will continue to move until it hits something that offers resistance, like a brake drum. The the pressure within the system will then rise until it overcomes the shoe with the next weakest friction; then that shoe will move until it hits resistance (the drum). In short order, all shoes are pushing against the drums and friction within the wheel cylinders is not a factor. With the drums off you could easily push the lowest friction wheel cylinder piston completely out of its cylinder before another shoe moves. But that is completely not an issue with the drums on and all shoes meet the drum after very little brake fluid has moved.
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Old 05-25-2021, 02:53 PM   #14
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

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I get why you are stuck on this. With mechanical brakes, when the pedal goes down, all shoes move at the same time.

Thought experiment: If you were blowing on two straws, one in water and one in molasses, where would the bubbles come out? The fluid (air in this case) would all come up in the water, none in the molasses. It would follow the path of least resistance.

As the pedal is pushed down the pressure in the whole system will go up. The resulting flow will follow the path of least resistance. When the pressure gets high enough to over come friction within the shoe with least friction, that shoe will move. It will continue to move until it hits something that offers resistance, like a brake drum. The the pressure within the system will then rise until it overcomes the shoe with the next weakest friction; then that shoe will move until it hits resistance (the drum). In short order, all shoes are pushing against the drums and friction within the wheel cylinders is not a factor. With the drums off you could easily push the lowest friction wheel cylinder piston completely out of its cylinder before another shoe moves. But that is completely not an issue with the drums on and all shoes meet the drum after very little brake fluid has moved.

drolston ......Great example (water/molasses), and an even better explanation about the shoe(s) movement/friction! DD



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Old 05-25-2021, 03:04 PM   #15
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

Marshall

You have gotten some tremendous help from a lot of experienced/great guys. The only thing I can add here is from my "personal" experience and hardship: Note V8Coopmans very first picture in his first post and the one thing that is right on both rear's pictures you posted and that is the installation of the pin and horseshoe clip on the rear most shoe that holds the EBrake arm. Note that the "Pin" installs from the "inner side" (nearest the backing plate) of the shoe and the horseshoe clip on the outer (drum side) of the shoe. It makes the installation/connecting of the spring Wwaaayy easier that way. NOTE "My" photo and ask me how I know!!!! ALSO the lower adjuster/eccentric washers can be finicky sometimes and not fully seat on the studs so also make sure and loosen the nut and spin the studs and make sure the lower half of the shoes move like they should before slipping the drums back on.
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Old 05-25-2021, 09:35 PM   #16
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

Marshall, not to sound harsh, but the major reason you are only seeing one shoe move is because you are doing something you really shouldn't be doing with hydraulic brakes. They are not intended to work correctly with the drums removed. The whole systems depends on the pressure of the shoe against the drum to work. When the first shoe (of the eight) moves and contacts the drum the system pressure increases and each shoe begins to move in the order of each ones resistance. The order this occurs in doesn't matter and it occurs in a fraction of a second if everything is adjusted correctly. The pressure in the brake fluid equalizes almost instantly, but not until there is resistance of the first shoe to move against the drum. That is one of the major advantages of hydraulic brakes over mechanical brakes, the ability of the brake fluid to equalize the braking pressure on each wheel. BUT, none of this will work with the drums removed or without the brakes being adjusted properly to begin with.
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Old 05-25-2021, 10:29 PM   #17
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Marshall, you are doing something you really shouldn't be doing with hydraulic brakes. They are not intended to work correctly with the drums removed. BUT, none of this will work with the drums removed or without the brakes being adjusted properly to begin with.

Just as I suggested at the end of post #5. DD
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Old 05-26-2021, 05:28 AM   #18
Marshall V. Daut
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

Coming from the mechanical brake world of Model A's and the almost-no-brakes world of Model T's , the hydraulic brake system on these old V8 Fords is quite alien to me and almost everything about these brakes runs counter to what I know about antique Ford braking operations: partial shoe linings, no shoe movement upon application of the pedal, don't push the pedal down to check the physical movement of the shoes without the drums being in place, etc. Yikes! After reading all the posts so far multiple times and disabusing myself of what I thought I knew how brakes work, I think the crystalizing moment came in JSeery's comments in post #16. They summarized what you other guys were telling me. I think the part I was missing in order to understand how these brakes work is that when one brake shoe moves upon application of the brake pedal, it "jump starts" all the other shoes in a nanosecond. The one shoe moves, which triggers the other shoe in that drum to move which then triggers the hydraulic pressure in the other three drums to move. I envision a domino effect jump started by the movement of just one shoe. But the drums must be in place for this to happen. Is that the basic operational concept? If so, that would explain why only one shoe noticeably moved when the brake pedal was depressed with the drums off. Had the drums been in place, the domino effect would have occurred in a flash. Is THAT correct? And if both of those premises are correct, you couldn't test the hydraulic action in a static situation, i.e., up on jack stands. The car would actually have to be moving with the drums spinning to start the braking action. If all of these observations are correct, then I think I got the theoretical "hang" of the thing.
As stated earlier, after multiple bleedings and with the brake shoes adjusted to give a slight drag on the drums, our pedal still went to the floor, even when the clutch was let out slightly to set the car in motion. I understand that our shoe linings are very thin and new ones have been ordered. But thin linings notwithstanding, shouldn't there have been more brake pedal resistance under those conditions than bottoming out against the bell housing with no appreciable brakes?
The new shoe linings should be here at the end of the week, but I won't be able to reline our shoes until next week so that I can finish up a friend's Model A over the weekend. I'll report back next week once the new shoe linings have been installed. Later today I'll also post photos of the modified pedal placement and the master cylinder for comment.

Hang in there with me, Guys! Don't stop trying to help me STOP this car.

Marshall

Last edited by Marshall V. Daut; 05-26-2021 at 05:41 AM.
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Old 05-26-2021, 06:45 AM   #19
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

Marshall
After reading your last post, The shoes need re-lining for sure SO you are on the right track so far. Everything you are asking here "STARTS" with the master cylinder, IF its not 100% then everything else is moot. As others have asked here in this thread, post pictures and how it is mounted as others have posted, that is a very important FIRST step. Others can determine IF there is ANY issues with its mounting and direct you on the year/model of it. I myself would start with it, rebuild it OR replace it KNOWING that it is 100% right, before I moved down the line to other components!!!
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Old 05-26-2021, 07:27 AM   #20
Marshall V. Daut
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Davenport, Iowa
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Default Re: Hydraulic brake questions - 1932 Coupe

Yup. Photos of the ad hoc master cylinder addition later today.
M.
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