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Old 09-16-2021, 12:37 PM   #1
AndrewZ
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Question Adding turbo to classic FE block

I'm interested in adding a turbo to an early Ford FE 361, '59 vintage. I'm wondering if anyone has suggestions for a kit. I see kits for Mustangs and more recent FE's, not so much for the older models.
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Old 09-16-2021, 06:00 PM   #2
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Post Re: Adding turbo to classic FE block

The 'kit' would be for the engine (FE) and would have to be able to be fitted into the chassis you have.

Where did you find a 59 361?
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One would need a period correct print date catalog to actually see the correct SERVICE PN as changes may have deleted original an SERVICE PN and showed only service replacement.
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Old 09-16-2021, 08:47 PM   #3
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Default Re: Adding turbo to classic FE block

Maybe an F600, Wasn't the 360 the first FE in the Edsel line? Thought 361 referred to HD truck engines. Not a rant or rave but lot's of possibilities. FE line is like genetic tree, lots of limbs.
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Old 09-16-2021, 10:14 PM   #4
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Default Re: Adding turbo to classic FE block

I thought 361's were available in '58 Edsels only. In '59 it was substituted with the 292. Ford trucks called it a 360. Not sure which years trucks had it.

Sal
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Old 09-17-2021, 01:09 AM   #5
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Post Re: Adding turbo to classic FE block

1959 EDSEL -

223ci
292ci (FYB) - RANGER
332ci (FE) - EXPRESS V8
361ci (FE) - SUPER EXPRESS V8

All 361 EDSEL -360 LT - FT 361 had the same bore and stroke.
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As for identifying actual service replacement parts in the MPC, it has to be understood that the cataloging was upgraded every quarter and superscessions/deletions most likely were dropped from text as time progressed and parts became unavailable.

One would need a period correct print date catalog to actually see the correct SERVICE PN as changes may have deleted original an SERVICE PN and showed only service replacement.
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Old 09-17-2021, 08:54 PM   #6
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Default Re: Adding turbo to classic FE block

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The 330HD, 361FT and 391FT were all truck engines. These were in F500 and F600 trucks, as well as a few F750's and many industrial applications.
They used an FE style block, but there are some differences. These engines had a larger oil pump drive shaft, consequently the pilot hole in the block for the distributor is larger than an FE block. The 361 and 391 blocks were sonic tested for cylinder wall thickness, just as an FE 427 was. I have rebuilt several blocks that were cast, but not drilled for the side oiler design as was used in side oiler 427's. The FT series also had steel cranks, but not cross drilled and the snout of the crank was much larger than an FE. These cranks can be used in an FE block by turning the snout down to the smaller diameter. The heads had sodium filled exhaust valves with a 7/16" stem. The exhaust seats were stellite and both intake and exhaust used one piece rotators. The intakes had 3/8" stems like a FE head, but the valve head diameter on both valves is much smaller. The pistons were much longer and heavier than an FE. The exhaust crossover in the heads is different than an FE and so the intake manifold is different too. These engines used either a 2 or 4 barrel Holley, with a governor controlled by the distributor.
Just like the Dodge 413 HD and Chevy 366 these were purpose built heavy duty engines that were not put in pickup trucks or cars
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Old 09-18-2021, 02:09 AM   #7
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Post Re: Adding turbo to classic FE block

Let me go further regarding the 1958/59 EDSEL 361 FE and/or FORD LT 360 FE. Either engine had a different bore size. The 1958 361 (4.0469" BORE X 3.50" STROKE) was a different casting from the 1968-1976 360 (4.052 " BORE X 3.50" STROKE).

The 360 LT (1968-1975) replaced the 352CI used in LT 1965-67. It was simply a 390 block with a 352 crank (4.052" BORE X 3.50" STROKE). Only one block casting was now necessary.

The 361 FE was also available as a one year only FORD POLICE ENGINE OPTION in 1958. It was also used in CAN PRODUCTION (1958-59) in lieu (Fr.) of the 352.
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As for identifying actual service replacement parts in the MPC, it has to be understood that the cataloging was upgraded every quarter and superscessions/deletions most likely were dropped from text as time progressed and parts became unavailable.

One would need a period correct print date catalog to actually see the correct SERVICE PN as changes may have deleted original an SERVICE PN and showed only service replacement.
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Old 09-23-2021, 02:03 AM   #8
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Default Re: Adding turbo to classic FE block

I'm the proud owner of a '58 Edsel 361, cast in Sept of '57. They were also in the '59 line up and were a 2 year only engine.

The stated bore size was always a mystery to me. It was called out at 4 3/64 (4.046875). But, you have to remember that it was 1958 and MANY things were still given in fractions. My assumption, is that Ford used the fractional bore size, thinking it would be better understood by the public. But all of Fords parts drawing are in decimals, usually 2 digits, like using .38, instead of 3/8 (.375). That goes back to 1932 and most likely model A's and T's before that (I don't have any of those drawings).

I had always thought that the bore on the '58 361 was 4.05, because if you run the math for the 4 3/64 x 3 1/2 engine, it comes to only 360.154 ci, where as the 4.05 x 3.5 is 360.71, not to mention that the '61 390 was 4.05 and I learned that bore first, as a mechanic in the '60's.

One other difference, on all '58 FE engines, is that there is NO front oil drain hole, into the timing area, like all other FE's from '59 on. I guess they found that the "Jiggler Pin" wasn't sufficient to oil the timing chain and gears. I have to drill one for mine.

Last, the '58 Edsel 361, had the highest CR of any Ford engine @ 10.5 CR, until the HP FE's came out later. The deck clearance, was only .008 with no valve relief and a .030 thick head gasket.

Here is the Edsel specs, from the service manual.
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File Type: jpg PC200175.JPG (436.2 KB, 10 views)
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Last edited by frnkeore; 09-23-2021 at 07:00 PM.
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Old 09-23-2021, 09:01 AM   #9
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Question Re: Adding turbo to classic FE block

I also a$$-u-me(d) the EDSEL 361 was an early FE de-stroked 390 (4.05) but a discussion on another forum about special size pistons for the EDSEL 361 woke me up.

If you ever have a chance, can you post all available CASTING ID and DATE CODES from your engine? I assume yours had HYD LIFTERS but did you ever pull the heads and noticed if the combustion chambers were machined? Did it come through with a SPIN-ON oil filter?

I never had or was around an EDSEL to learn. And of course, all service and parts info was in specialty print.
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As for identifying actual service replacement parts in the MPC, it has to be understood that the cataloging was upgraded every quarter and superscessions/deletions most likely were dropped from text as time progressed and parts became unavailable.

One would need a period correct print date catalog to actually see the correct SERVICE PN as changes may have deleted original an SERVICE PN and showed only service replacement.
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Old 09-23-2021, 01:31 PM   #10
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Default Re: Adding turbo to classic FE block

I was a mechanic from '62, until '70. Most of that time (2 years in the Army as a mechanic), I worked in SoCal and the shop had a tow service and a wrecking yard. I had access to all kinds of things. Loved it!

As a life time Ford guy, the FE (wasn't called that, in those days) was MY engine of choice In '63 I had a '60 Ford with a 300 hp 352 and in '68 I bought a '63 427 LR engine.

I always new about the machined chamber heads and that was one reason that I bought this 361 so, I could work with them. There was probably a transition period in '59 but, all '58 and '59's (332/352 included) engines had them. Most '58's had Welch plug holes (1 1/4) in the heads, front and back.

My block is pretty early but, only has Welch plug holes, in the back of the block, some also had them in the front of the block and you can see the bosses for them on my block.

One last thing about the early blocks, Fords minimum cylinder wall thickness was .170 for a std bore engine. At least from the '58 to the '60 model year, these blocks were not thin wall castings. Fords first thin wall block, was the 1960 Falcon 144 & 170 6 cyl engines. I've yet to determine when the change over was but, it was somewhere between '60 and '63. I had my engine bored .060 over (4.110) and there is still enough meat to go to at least 4.13. It was common, in the '60's to bore ALL engines 1/8" (FH's up to 1/4") and I didn't know of anyone splitting a cyl wall, not that it wouldn't have happen but, I was a mechanic and a racer and didn't know of any. 283 SBC were done, all the time. A 1/8" over bore on a .170 wall, leaves .108 wall, mostly acceptable today in this world of sonic testers. I even have one and will post my results, on this block.

In the pictures of my heads, I've machined them for 2.09 x 1.656 valves (Stelite Ex seats) and deburred the chambers.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P3150050.JPG (378.3 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg P3150055.jpg (29.9 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg P3150057.JPG (250.4 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg P3070033.JPG (354.8 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg P3070030.JPG (410.3 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg P3070035.JPG (270.9 KB, 10 views)
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Old 09-23-2021, 01:47 PM   #11
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Default Re: Adding turbo to classic FE block

Here's the sonic test, after it was bored to 4.110 and a before and after chamber picture.

I'm installing a Eagle, 428 crank and .060 over 410 pistons in it so, it will be a 423 CI engine now, with a 390 HP aluminum manifold and will go in my '54 Tudor Mainliner.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Utra 1.5.jpg (18.2 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg Utra 3.5.jpg (14.8 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg Heads 3.JPG (418.9 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg Heads 2.JPG (413.2 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg Heads 5.JPG (384.6 KB, 10 views)
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Last edited by frnkeore; 09-23-2021 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 09-23-2021, 05:26 PM   #12
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Thumbs up Re: Adding turbo to classic FE block

!!! WHEW !!!

You're a dead serious FE guy.

I really appreciate all that info. It is hard to find an EDSEL OWNER online that knows how to come across all of that. Do you still have the car or was it just an engine you came by?

Can you do me one more favor (standing in a bread line asking for toast). If you still have the original intake, can you post the CASTING ID NO.?
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As for identifying actual service replacement parts in the MPC, it has to be understood that the cataloging was upgraded every quarter and superscessions/deletions most likely were dropped from text as time progressed and parts became unavailable.

One would need a period correct print date catalog to actually see the correct SERVICE PN as changes may have deleted original an SERVICE PN and showed only service replacement.
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Old 09-23-2021, 06:56 PM   #13
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Default Re: Adding turbo to classic FE block

I must make a correction to the CR, it was 10.5, not 10.8 (hit wrong key) but, still the highest Ford CR for the FE.

I bought it from the guy that pulled the engine but, I didn't want the original intake, as I would have just thrown it away. I will not use a cast iron intake on any FE, not even a CJ intake. I changed to many when I was a mechanic!

I did get the door plate, here is a picture of that.


BTW, the car that I had, before the '60 Ford, was a '58 Edsel but, it was a Corsair, with the 410 MEL engine. My folks had a Citation, that they got in '59. They were also 410's. The Corsair & Citation, were on Merc chassis and the Pacer & Ranger (the FE's) were on the Ford chassis.
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Old 09-24-2021, 12:38 AM   #14
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Thumbs up Re: Adding turbo to classic FE block

OK ...

Thanks for all the info ... appreciated ...
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As for identifying actual service replacement parts in the MPC, it has to be understood that the cataloging was upgraded every quarter and superscessions/deletions most likely were dropped from text as time progressed and parts became unavailable.

One would need a period correct print date catalog to actually see the correct SERVICE PN as changes may have deleted original an SERVICE PN and showed only service replacement.
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Old 09-24-2021, 11:22 AM   #15
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Default Re: Adding turbo to classic FE block

We used to look for the black baldy non lettered valve covers on 58 Fords. Most of the time it meant machined chambers and solid lifters. Rumor was, it was for the first 90 days of Ford production then moved to FORD stamped covers and hydraulic lifters for the 332 and 352.
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Old 09-24-2021, 04:10 PM   #16
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Thumbs up Re: Adding turbo to classic FE block

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5851a View Post

We used to look for the black baldy non lettered valve covers on 58 Fords. Most of the time it meant machined chambers and solid lifters. Rumor was, it was for the first 90 days of Ford production then moved to FORD stamped covers and hydraulic lifters for the 332 and 352.


You spil't the beans!
.


Few know that. The cylinder heads were also used on some 1960 352CI 360HP engines also.
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As for identifying actual service replacement parts in the MPC, it has to be understood that the cataloging was upgraded every quarter and superscessions/deletions most likely were dropped from text as time progressed and parts became unavailable.

One would need a period correct print date catalog to actually see the correct SERVICE PN as changes may have deleted original an SERVICE PN and showed only service replacement.
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Old 10-02-2021, 07:51 AM   #17
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Post Re: Adding turbo to classic FE block

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5851a View Post

We used to look for the black baldy non lettered valve covers on 58 Fords. Most of the time it meant machined chambers and solid lifters. Rumor was, it was for the first 90 days of Ford production then moved to FORD stamped covers and hydraulic lifters for the 332 and 352.
My understanding is that of course the 352 was going to be used in NASCAR. FORD then signed the agreement with AMA to not participate in racing any longer.

That and the fact that FORD MARKETING was concerned about possible customer dissatisfaction with a solid lifter engine in the later released TBIRD were two factors in backing off in the engine design. It was simply de-rated.

EDIT - That and the cost of machining the cyl head combustion chambers.

So now the the beans have been spilled ... ...

Below is a shot of the early FE rocker covers -

...hmmph ...

Now that I have run my mouth, I cannot find the photo. Well. it's just like PREGO, it has to be in there somewhere.

I shall return ...

... flip ... flip ...
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As for identifying actual service replacement parts in the MPC, it has to be understood that the cataloging was upgraded every quarter and superscessions/deletions most likely were dropped from text as time progressed and parts became unavailable.

One would need a period correct print date catalog to actually see the correct SERVICE PN as changes may have deleted original an SERVICE PN and showed only service replacement.

Last edited by KULTULZ; 10-04-2021 at 08:11 PM.
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Old 10-02-2021, 08:01 AM   #18
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Question Re: Adding turbo to classic FE block

Quote:
Originally Posted by KULTULZ View Post

Let me go further regarding the 1958/59 EDSEL 361 FE and/or FORD LT 360 FE. Either engine had a different bore size. The 1958 361 (4.0469" BORE X 3.50" STROKE) was a different casting from the 1968-1976 360 (4.052 " BORE X 3.50" STROKE).

This CRS is really getting annoying ...

I just noticed on the SPEC SHEET posted from the 1958 EDSEL WSM that the 361 EDSEL bore size is given @ 4.0500 - 4.0524

Now I am really confused.

MEL DIVISION didn't release EDSEL INFO freely, only through dedicated WSM and MPC. Wish I had paid more attention back when ...

Back to SQUARE ONE ...
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As for identifying actual service replacement parts in the MPC, it has to be understood that the cataloging was upgraded every quarter and superscessions/deletions most likely were dropped from text as time progressed and parts became unavailable.

One would need a period correct print date catalog to actually see the correct SERVICE PN as changes may have deleted original an SERVICE PN and showed only service replacement.
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Old 10-02-2021, 10:56 AM   #19
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Default Re: Adding turbo to classic FE block

Fuzzy memory here too, but I think the front and back of the block had core plugs that were eliminated later on.
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Old 10-03-2021, 02:53 AM   #20
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Exclamation Re: Adding turbo to classic FE block

Quote:
Originally Posted by KULTULZ View Post

So now the the beans have been spilled ... ...

Below is a shot of the early FE rocker covers -

...hmmph ...

Now that I have run my mouth, I cannot find the photo. Well. it's just like PREGO, it has to be in there somewhere.

I shall return ...

... flip ... flip ...
!!! FOUND IT !!!

It was not misfiled as thought, merely misplaced ...
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As for identifying actual service replacement parts in the MPC, it has to be understood that the cataloging was upgraded every quarter and superscessions/deletions most likely were dropped from text as time progressed and parts became unavailable.

One would need a period correct print date catalog to actually see the correct SERVICE PN as changes may have deleted original an SERVICE PN and showed only service replacement.
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