Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Early V8 (1932-53)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-18-2022, 06:58 AM   #1
Charlie ny
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,019
Default Ackerman steering

This is a reach out for advice on steering geometry for my '32 p/u. When
I installed the dropped axle I heated & bent the steering arms for tie rod
clearance and messed up the geometry. It is evident by observation that while negotiating a turn the
'inside' wheel is not angled sharper than the 'outside' wheel. With a bare
chassis it would be relatively easy to reconfigure the arms to achieve the
Ackerman principle. Any way to do this with the body on ??
Many thanks,
Charlie ny

Last edited by Charlie ny; 05-18-2022 at 07:11 AM. Reason: added....while negotiang a turn
Charlie ny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2022, 07:23 AM   #2
1931 flamingo
Senior Member
 
1931 flamingo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: new britain,ct 06052
Posts: 9,389
Default Re: Ackerman steering

I would thing removing the tires and wheels would give you adequate access.
Paul in CT
1931 flamingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 05-18-2022, 08:59 AM   #3
TJ
Senior Member
 
TJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Napa,California
Posts: 6,007
Default Re: Ackerman steering

For bending the arms I would remove them and send them to Nostalgia Sid in Oklahoma City. He has a page on Facebook. He does them all the time and I believe he has a fixture to get the right bend.
TJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2022, 09:35 AM   #4
deuce_roadster
Senior Member
 
deuce_roadster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Shelton, WA
Posts: 3,777
Default Re: Ackerman steering

Use a plumb bob and make a mark on the concrete floor where the arms should point to at the rear. Then using the plumb bob again, use a snap line to draw the lines up to the front axle where they should land. Of course have the car on jack stands with the wheels off. then you can see where the arms should point. As you already know the Ackerman is just a simple triangle.
deuce_roadster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2022, 10:42 AM   #5
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 16,369
Default Re: Ackerman steering

While the angle certainly could be off, keep in mind that the steering gear has built it play anytime the steering wheel is off center. Some of the offset happens in motion due to road drag. The farther off center the steering gets the more play is there to allow the further dissymmetry to happen.

If the car is in the shop and up on stands, a person would have to pull on the inside of the turn road wheel to illustrate the movement of the individual wheel during a turn of one direction or the other.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2022, 01:11 PM   #6
1931 flamingo
Senior Member
 
1931 flamingo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: new britain,ct 06052
Posts: 9,389
Default Re: Ackerman steering

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
What did I know as a 15 year old when I split the wishbone on my 32 5W, didn't heat and bend at the axle, We just heated and bent the arms. Now I know what "bump steer" is, and boy did I have it at times. But I was only 15 and relied on the "Little Books (still up in the attic).
Paul in CT
1931 flamingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2022, 01:36 PM   #7
Mart
Senior Member
 
Mart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 8,732
Default Re: Ackerman steering

Draw a straight line from the kingpin to the center of the rear axle. Your tie rod end should lie along that line.
Mart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2022, 01:44 PM   #8
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 11,106
Default Re: Ackerman steering

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart View Post
Draw a straight line from the kingpin to the center of the rear axle. Your tie rod end should lie along that line.

"Like this" Mart says! Coop


__________________
Click Links Below __


'35-'36 W/8BA & MECHANICAL FAN


T5 W/TORQUE TUBE
V8COOPMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2022, 08:16 PM   #9
Charlie ny
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,019
Default Re: Ackerman steering

Many many thanks for all the replies. The '32 is sans tires and wheels and on blocks
so the suspension is loaded. I'm going to attempt deuce roadster's method with
assistance from a very limber 56 year old buddy. I briefly fired myself....both steering arms are about parallel ...far from intersecting over the banjo....so much for my care
whilst using the flame thrower initially.


Charlie ny
Charlie ny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2022, 11:01 AM   #10
Flathead Fever
Senior Member
 
Flathead Fever's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Yucaipa, CA
Posts: 1,091
Default Re: Ackerman steering

This was 25-years ago on a 1932 with '32 spindles. It was my first- and only-time bending arms for a dropped axle. I made a bracket that bolted to the top two axle housing bolts (one on each side). The bracket had a centered stud that I could tie a string to. I made sure the rear end was centered with the frame. Tied a string from the stud to the center of the kingpin. Then I used a plumb bob from the string to where the tie rod arm hole should be, Then I measured how much the arm needed to be bent. This could have been done on the car except it had a chromed, drilled axle, with the recess painted red that I did not want to get a torch nearby. I bought the chopped '32 3-window partly finished, and the axle was already chromed. I welded up a fixture to hold the spindle while heating the arms just enough that I could bend them. This is a lot easier with second person helping, one heating and one bending.

I just remembered, I also bolted a bar between the two spindles front backing plate bolts. I kept shimming it until the spindles were perfectly parallel with each other and it locked them solid from turning. That assured the spindle were straight when I took the remeasurements to bend the arms. It was more work taking the spindles on and off to bend them in my holding fixture. It would have been so much faster bending them on the car. Bend them of the vehicles before you have anything painted or chromed.

I like the look of the original '32'-34 spindle's built in drag link arm. If you look at vintage hot rod photos ( I have hundreds of them) they almost all used the stock '32-'34 spindles because there were no aftermarket bolt on drag link arms until the Tornado arm came out around 1948. The first dropped axles (Dago's) for V8 Fords was in late 1945 on early 1946. I heated my drag link arm and bent it down to follow the curve of the dropped axle. It looks nice but there is a purpose to it. You're trying to get the draglink arm, which moved up with the dropped axle, back down so the drag link is parallel with the wishbone. It will never be completely parallel with the dropped axle, but you can at least get it closer, so you don't end up with bump steer.

I was so proud of myself when I was done but I had made a mistake. I did not bend the tie rod arms down far enough. I didn't take into consideration that when you turn the wheels the tie rod does not stay parallel with ground, the ends swings in an arc. They ends move upwards as the wheel; turns because of the axles' caster. My tie rod moved up and hit the center of the crossmember. So, I had to heat and bent them a second time and I didn't feel they were safe heating them the first time.

The second time I try this I will be a lot smarter. I have photos (the vintage 35mm kind from the 1980s on actual photo paper) of me doing it. I'll try and find them tonight and post them

There is a factory Ford employee training manual on what happens to metal when you heat it and forge it. The forging process tightens the grain structure. Smack a forge axle wit hammer and it rings like a bell because sound can travel better through that tight grain structure. Forging also aligns the grains in one direction and stops metal crystals from growing larger. Smaller. tightly pack grains, aligned in a direction are a lot stronger. It hust about impossible to break a forging. The trick is to heat that arm but still preserve the original forgings' strength. "Absolutely" no hotter than necessary to bend it. Too hot and the metal crystals will start to grow, and it will no longer be a forging. The next one I do I will find out what the safe temperate to heat a forging is and use an infrared thermometer on it.

Bending steering arms is serious stuff. Not good if one of your arms cracks and falls off while driving. It's definitely not a good idea to bend them and its illegal in some countries, but on a traditional hot rod using period correct parts you don't have much choice. Don't overheat them and let them cool slowly, quenching them could make them brittle I figure if you are bending the arms, you are pulling the tightly packed forged grains of metal a part and also, since you only heated part of the spindle, now it's not going to be uniformly the same, it will never be as strong as it was.

I have never heard of arms breaking after heating and bending them, I asked a lot of 1940s hot rodders if they had ever seen it happen bac kin the day and none had, but since some countries have laws against it has probably happened. I definitely would not take the liability of bending them if I had a hot rod shop. Only on my own traditional hot rod projects.

Something else to thing about is the end the drag link hole on the spindle arm. If you bend the steering arm down to get the draglink parallel with the wishbone again (to prevent bump steer), the end of the arm will be at a bad angle. So it will need to be heated and bent back up, same with the tie rod ends. A giant crescent wrench works great. Using the stock spindles, lay an angle finder across the tops of the holes and record your findings. When you bend the arms down to clear the dropped axle, heat and bend the ends back up to their original angle.

I'm not trying scare anybody from attempting this. Just think about what you're doing and be smart about it. My dad worked at Kaiser Steel, a giant place that manufactured steel. Back when we made stuff here in the USA. You would now know it now as Nascars' Fontana Speedway. Back then train loads or ore from Eagle Mountain went into the blast furnace at one end and steel came out the other end, a mile away. He worked in the Forge and Weld Shop. I learned a "little" from him about safely heating and cooling metal, but I am definitely no metallurgist.

Last edited by Flathead Fever; 05-19-2022 at 11:31 AM.
Flathead Fever is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:35 PM.