The Ford Barn

Synchro909 · 07-21-2019, 07:08 PM

Many of you won't know me (or my avitar dog!) because I am normaly over on the Model A forum. I'm asking this on behalf of a friend who has a T.
Yesterday, he "reconfigured" the front of his car (1915 version) when, he says the steering went over center and he couldn't control it. Both he and I need to know about the phenomenon, its cause and fix. I'm sure all I need to know is out there amongst you all.
BTW, he was VERY lucky. The incident happened when he was manouvering the car in a clifftop carpark. When he lost control of the car, he hit a Toyota, otherwise he and his passenger would have been over the edge, into the ocean. See, Toyotas are good for something!

J Franklin · 07-21-2019, 07:34 PM

That is an anomaly of the model T. I don't know off hand if there is a good reason or fix for this.

Synchro909 · 07-21-2019, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J Franklin

That is an anomaly of the model T. I don't know off hand if there is a good reason or fix for this.

Are there steering stops to prevent it?

J Franklin · 07-21-2019, 11:42 PM

I couldn't find where I had read about that specific problem. I would suggest jacking the front end off the ground and visually inspecting what transpires when turning sharply. It is just a sun gear setup at the top and maybe there are stops in that assembly that require a tight cover. Easy to check.

redmodelt · 07-22-2019, 12:58 AM

From sometime in 1921 Ford added a slot and longer pin in the gear box to prevent this. Could be a number of things. Did the wrong drag link get installed? They come in a number of different lengths. Does he have the toe end set to about 1/4"? If it is set the wrong way (toe out), would be like loosing control going to fast in reverse. Are the perches installed the correct way so the bottom of the axle sticks out further then the top, as in the axle got turned around. Does he have the over or under wishbone mount.

redmodelt · 07-22-2019, 01:02 AM

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Did the axle by any chance get turned around? The perches have a front and back. Is the toe in set to about 1/4"? If set for toe out would be like driving in reverse, loose control if going too fast.

redmodelt · 07-22-2019, 01:03 AM

Sorry about the double post.

Synchro909 · 07-22-2019, 06:00 AM

Thanks, Red. I'll pass all that on to him. Only 12 years to reralise there was a problem and do something about it 1909 till 1921! Speed was clearly not part of tghe problem - it happened while manouvering in a car park but I don't know whether he was going forard or back a the time.. Are there istructions (like Les Andrews' books) for the assembly of the front end of a T?

Royce P · 07-22-2019, 07:59 AM

If the steering is made up of all the matching, correct 1915 parts it cannot go over center. The drag link length changed many times over the years. The steering arm length changed many times. The tie rod changed several times, and this is a typical problem when brass era Model T's are restored using later steering components mixed with early ones.

The tie rod ball is about 1" different location on later tie rods. If this car has the removable / replaceable ball on the tie rod it has the wrong tie rod.

Steering arms are straight on 1915 Model T's. If they are the later curved ones it screws up everything.

Measure the length center to center of the drag link. Measure the length center to center of the steering arm on the end of the steering column.

redmodelt · 07-22-2019, 09:31 AM

Find out if he was backing up when this happened. Because of the design of the front axle this can happen and you go for a wild ride if moving too fast in reverse and turning. Been there done that!

RE the Les book, yes. "Model T Ford Service" would cover most everything.

Synchro909 · 07-22-2019, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redmodelt

Find out if he was backing up when this happened. Because of the design of the front axle this can happen and you go for a wild ride if moving too fast in reverse and turning. Been there done that!

RE the Les book, yes. "Model T Ford Service" would cover most everything.

Thanks Red, I'll pass al that on.

Scottio57 · 07-26-2019, 10:20 AM

This happened once when I was driving my dads T as a kid. I was in a turn and turned the wheel a little too hard after I was full turn. Then turning the wheel left the car went right. Dad just turned the steering wheel the other way and overcentered it back into position. I recently rebuilt my steering box and noticed that one pin is longer than the others and is in a position to stop this from happening.

07-21-2019, 07:08 PM	#1
Synchro909 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 7,495	Model T steering goes over center? Many of you won't know me (or my avitar dog!) because I am normaly over on the Model A forum. I'm asking this on behalf of a friend who has a T. Yesterday, he "reconfigured" the front of his car (1915 version) when, he says the steering went over center and he couldn't control it. Both he and I need to know about the phenomenon, its cause and fix. I'm sure all I need to know is out there amongst you all. BTW, he was VERY lucky. The incident happened when he was manouvering the car in a clifftop carpark. When he lost control of the car, he hit a Toyota, otherwise he and his passenger would have been over the edge, into the ocean. See, Toyotas are good for something! __________________ I'm part of the only ever generation with an analogue childhood and a digital adulthood.

07-21-2019, 07:34 PM	#2
J Franklin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon Posts: 5,959	Re: Model T steering goes over center? That is an anomaly of the model T. I don't know off hand if there is a good reason or fix for this.

07-21-2019, 11:42 PM	#4
J Franklin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon Posts: 5,959	Re: Model T steering goes over center? I couldn't find where I had read about that specific problem. I would suggest jacking the front end off the ground and visually inspecting what transpires when turning sharply. It is just a sun gear setup at the top and maybe there are stops in that assembly that require a tight cover. Easy to check.

07-22-2019, 12:58 AM	#5
redmodelt Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland OR Posts: 6,340	Re: Model T steering goes over center? From sometime in 1921 Ford added a slot and longer pin in the gear box to prevent this. Could be a number of things. Did the wrong drag link get installed? They come in a number of different lengths. Does he have the toe end set to about 1/4"? If it is set the wrong way (toe out), would be like loosing control going to fast in reverse. Are the perches installed the correct way so the bottom of the axle sticks out further then the top, as in the axle got turned around. Does he have the over or under wishbone mount. __________________ I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas!

07-22-2019, 01:02 AM	#6
redmodelt Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland OR Posts: 6,340	Re: Model T steering goes over center? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Did the axle by any chance get turned around? The perches have a front and back. Is the toe in set to about 1/4"? If set for toe out would be like driving in reverse, loose control if going too fast. __________________ I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas!

07-22-2019, 01:03 AM	#7
redmodelt Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland OR Posts: 6,340	Re: Model T steering goes over center? Sorry about the double post. __________________ I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas!

07-22-2019, 06:00 AM	#8
Synchro909 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 7,495	Re: Model T steering goes over center? Thanks, Red. I'll pass all that on to him. Only 12 years to reralise there was a problem and do something about it 1909 till 1921! Speed was clearly not part of tghe problem - it happened while manouvering in a car park but I don't know whether he was going forard or back a the time.. Are there istructions (like Les Andrews' books) for the assembly of the front end of a T? __________________ I'm part of the only ever generation with an analogue childhood and a digital adulthood.

07-22-2019, 07:59 AM	#9
Royce P Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Tulsa OK Posts: 476	Re: Model T steering goes over center? If the steering is made up of all the matching, correct 1915 parts it cannot go over center. The drag link length changed many times over the years. The steering arm length changed many times. The tie rod changed several times, and this is a typical problem when brass era Model T's are restored using later steering components mixed with early ones. The tie rod ball is about 1" different location on later tie rods. If this car has the removable / replaceable ball on the tie rod it has the wrong tie rod. Steering arms are straight on 1915 Model T's. If they are the later curved ones it screws up everything. Measure the length center to center of the drag link. Measure the length center to center of the steering arm on the end of the steering column. __________________ 1910 Touring 1914 Touring 1915 Touring 1917 Torpedo Runabout

07-22-2019, 09:31 AM	#10
redmodelt Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland OR Posts: 6,340	Re: Model T steering goes over center? Find out if he was backing up when this happened. Because of the design of the front axle this can happen and you go for a wild ride if moving too fast in reverse and turning. Been there done that! RE the Les book, yes. "Model T Ford Service" would cover most everything. __________________ I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas!

07-26-2019, 10:20 AM	#12
Scottio57 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: lancaster Ca. Posts: 107	Re: Model T steering goes over center? This happened once when I was driving my dads T as a kid. I was in a turn and turned the wheel a little too hard after I was full turn. Then turning the wheel left the car went right. Dad just turned the steering wheel the other way and overcentered it back into position. I recently rebuilt my steering box and noticed that one pin is longer than the others and is in a position to stop this from happening.

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