83 yr old Technology , the Front axle

[19ED30]

Looking for information , opinion & experience !!
I have searched hear & on the Internet but unable to find what I'm looking for,
I have two car's , One is a 1930 Sedan , Hot Rod , Not a street Rod !
With a 4 bar front suspension , cross steer , I drive the car about 300 miles a week , & have been over 100 mph a time or so , With no issues ,
My second car is a 1932 Sedan , pretty much stock,
39 motor & train, 40 juice brakes , None split wishbone
Wheels are radial tires, 15x6 steel wheel with 205,75,15 25 psi in tires ,
Tires , Speed Balanced .
I dove the car with stock spring ,& around 55-60 I could feel the front start to shimmy (( not death wobble)
So I put a Posie reversed I spring in , it lower it 2 1/2 in front .
Shackle 45-50 degree
Test drove , Bump in road ,,,death wobble, at 35 or so,
Checked the to camber at backing plate , positive 1 degree
Checked caster ,positive 9 degree at kingpin
Checked kingpin seem ok , checked steering , about 1/2 inch play at steering wheel ,
Checked toe , it was 1/4 toe in ,so I changed it to 1/16 ,
Test drove , font end wondering now , set toe again ,
Now 1/8 th , Better , now back to 50-55, I can feel the front starting to shimmy,
Now my question , on a car with a 83 year old front Technology ,
Should I change the camber to negative 1 degree ,
I am also looking to cut a set of steel wheels down to 4.5 to 5 inch wide
Or a set of 16x4.5 for the front ,
I have drove a lot of different trucks ,cars , Equpmint , but driving
the 32 for about 30 miles , it's a work out on my arms ,
Front end feels so heavy !!!
Am I expecting too much from a 83-year-old technology,
My 30 drives Nice , but RIDES like a Hot Rod ,,
The 32 Rides like a Cadillac under 53 mph!!!
BUT STEERS LIKE A FARM TRACTOR & over 53 ??

I would like to be able to drive to 70 mph with no issues if needed !!!!

[Bassman/NZ]

7 degrees caster would be better, methinks.

[super flat]

Also air your tires up to 35psi. Gary

[19ED30]

I know more air will make it steer easier , ,
Will it also make it shimmy easier and @ a lower MPH,

[Lawrie]

My stock 33 with the rebuilt stock shocks will do 75 - 80 mph over bumps etc no shimmy. cross plys and all.
Lawrie

[Pete]

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My stock type front end handles fine at 154.7 mph and all speeds in between.

[FlatheadTed]

Get them re balanced Ted

[fordor41]

I basically have same front end set-up as you, with stock shocks, on my '41. Can go 75-80 all day, over all sorts of trashy roads, with no problem. I developed a "shimmy" after changing to radials 20 yrs ago. Make sure you have a good steering box and get a GOOD balance job with 32 PSI tire pressure. Solved my problem.

[32 ford barn]

what's the difference in a street rod and a hot rod? Jim

[Talkwrench]

Originally Posted by 32 ford barn

what's the difference in a street rod and a hot rod? Jim

Street rod usually has a scrub motor in it and cleaning equipment in the back.
A hot rod has flathead motor and tools in the back ; o )

[19ED30]

Originally Posted by 32 ford barn

what's the difference in a street rod and a hot rod? Jim

Whats the differnace by definition??
It seems to be more about attitude and how the car becomes what it will be determines what it is,
Seems a hotrod is usually a lower buck deal more backyard.Were as the parts are usually home modified and fabricated production parts.And all ideas are owner thought up.
And street rods seems more professionaly built and designed and fabricated.And use many aftermarket parts and kits.
But at what point is a hotrod a streetrod or viseverse?? I've heard the definition of horsepower determining street from hotrods,
In the 80s -early 90s a lot of Hot Rod where turned in to Street Rod's Cruiser !!
Not a Custom , Lead Sled ,
To me , my 32 is a cruiser , stock Full fenders with 40 brakes , & radial Tire's ,
My 30 is No bling , it is a hand Full !!! It was a 680 hp motor , I bump it back to 550hp it still ?? I only pull 1st & half of 2nd gear and lift

[19ED30]

Originally Posted by super flat

Also air your tires up to 35psi. Gary

Originally Posted by Pete

My stock type front end handles fine at 154.7 mph and all speeds in between.

So I raised the air presser , 35 psi , and now it start to shimmy at 60 mph,

What is yr toe,caster, camber , and typ of car @ 154mph ??

I have been ove 200mph in my Altered ,in 1/4

[dwick01]

I would recheck the balance of all the wheels. Out of balance wheels can cause shimmy for sure.

[Tim Ayers]

Check the HAMB and search for death wobble. Could be a bunch of things causing it. Super long thread on it over there.

[19ED30]

I have been reading about death wobble , when these cars were engineered and Built there was no paved roads they weren't Driven at 50 and 60 mph on smooth roads .
I want to know if I can get a Stock 1932 front axle , stock wish bone to drive like the
Cross steer 4 bar on my 1930 , I need to check the ball on the wish bone , that the only thing I have no checked,
I do Not have death wobble, A shimmy , car feel like it's following the seams in the road ,
But no seam seen,

[jimTN]

Start with reading the Ford Service Bulletins. Then throw away that P$%&^*( spring and put everything back original. After checking kingpins, tierood ends, tires, steering gear, then go to a good front end shop that can check the castor and camber. A stock ford with 16" rubber will easily go down the road at 80 MPH.

[Ol' Ron]

Check king pin inclination, if the front wheels have too much offset, it can cause this. This was popular to show off the Buick drums. bad idea.

[Tim Ayers]

Well, my father's '32 all-stock sedan except 16" wires will go 75-80 all day long without issue.

What ever you want to call it; shimmy, death wobble, etc., you've got something wrong or bad with your front end, rims, tires, etc.

[19ED30]

Yes I was thinking the wheels also ,
Tires I have balanced 3 times , different shops , two different set of tires ,
they are 6 inch wide , I was going to cut them down to
4.5 or 5 wide , My lathe is not big enough , No machine shop will cut them ,
Looking for a set of 16x4.5 local.
I checked both sides of Axle 8.5 positive caster , 1.5 positive camber , toe in .200 thousands
I have played with the Toe from 0 to 1/16 , 1/8 , .200 is the best
It states that Radial tire should be set at 0 on camber , 1933 ford

[Floyd]

What are you using for shocks? They need to be in excellent condition. Best if original type. If not then must be real shocks, not the cute little ones sold for easy installation.
Do check the rubber ball on the wishbone. If you do not know the condition then it is probably bad. Get a real one from Barnfind. A tight wishbone joint prevents the axle from going crooked which results from "wobble". It also sets caster.
Wheel offset- contact patch point- Very very important. If you have or can borrow a set of original wheels with correct offset and 6.00 16 tires, give them a test. Heavy ,wide oversize tires on wrong spaced rims will not work as to easy steering or high speed driving.
Rear tire pressure very important in this situation.
"Correct " size wheels and tires will allow you to go fast and steer easy.
Just an opinion

[Mart]

8.5 degrees is a lot of caster.

Mart.

[JSeery]

And a lot of caster can lead to problems like you are having.

[Fordors]

I'm wondering how you can get 8 1/2° caster with a lowered front end (Posie spring) and the stock wishbone. You had mentioned the spring dropped the front end 2 1/2", that would tend to add some negative caster, was there anything else modified?

[DavidG]

Is every last component in the steering system within spec, including the mesh between the worm and sector gears? If not, that's often the number 1 cause of front wheel shimmy.

[19ED30]

Originally Posted by Fordors

I'm wondering how you can get 8 1/2° caster with a lowered front end (Posie spring) and the stock wishbone. You had mentioned the spring dropped the front end 2 1/2", that would tend to add some negative caster, was there anything else modified?

my angle finder on axle at kingpin,
Car on leveal ground
I have built several cars with staight axle ,
But none with stock Parts,
I have no problem with working toward a solution knowing I can achieve a smoth ride @ 70 mph with stock suspension with a lower spring

No on any other modification,,

32 Ford friction shocks

Iwas reading the service bulletin for the steering Box to check the mesh

[rt34]

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Check your tie rod ends. are you running a panhard bar? All 4 bar front ends need a pan hard bar. I have a33 3wc hot rod. also check all shackles and bushings

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by rt34

Check your tie rod ends. are you running a panhard bar? All 4 bar front ends need a pan hard bar. I have a33 3wc hot rod. also check all shackles and bushings

? Not sure what 4 bar has to with this front end issue.

[19ED30]

Originally Posted by rt34

Check your tie rod ends. are you running a panhard bar? All 4 bar front ends need a pan hard bar. I have a33 3wc hot rod. also check all shackles and bushings

None 4bar ,
Stock 32 none split wishbone ,,,
I Replaced Spring & shackle bushings

[RalphM]

Are you checking caster on a direct kingpin axis, or just on the flat spot on the axle ?
I have a tool for checking it properly.

[Talkwrench]

I think its a curse of a solid axle.. Obviously there are technical things making it worse however in the early 2000's I was driving a 3.5T Mitsubishi truck daily , truck was new and put 150K + klms on it and on the freeway out of the blue one day it just started shaking violently , frightened the shit out of me, never happened again but geez! I put a steering damper on the pickup just recent just in case ; o )

[Lawrie]

Rob, the 33 does thousands of Ks,some with the caravan and some without,never a shimmy,
BUT my A,if the tyres are worn out or the steering is loose ,AND with and engine or two in the back coming down hill,hit a bump or the brakes and it gets a wobble, mind you the front wheels are not real true,that won't help.
My boy is over your way on the wheatstone gas job.
Lawrie

[19ED30]

Originally Posted by RalphM

Are you checking caster on a direct kingpin axis, or just on the flat spot on the axle ?
I have a tool for checking it properly.

On the Flat of axel & on level ground.

[Talkwrench]

Lawrie if he's on the Wheatstone project he's probably closer to you! : ) is he staying on the cruise liner?

[scooder]

19ED30, just to clarify. You say 1932 friction shocks. Are they stock 32 shocks or friction shocks? If 32 shocks, do you know the condition of them? Have they been rebuilt? Are they topped off with fluid?
If friction shocks, have you tried tightening the adjustment to increase resistance?
What kingpins are fitted? With later ones you can plop the angle finder on the top of the pin.
Martin.

[1931 flamingo]

Start with the steering box (tight/no wear and adjusted CORRECTLY), pitman arm TIGHT to strg box, No play in drag link/tie rod ends, wishbone ball not out of round and/or replace the rubber ball IF so equipped, adj front wheel bearings, correct toe in/out, caster, camber.
Lose the wide wheels, correct tire pressure. JMO FWIW
Paul in CT

[TJ]

How old are the tires you are using? Old tires with cord separations can contribute to the problem. Get rid of the wide wheels and set caster at 4 to 6 degrees. Check each and every steering component for wear.

[Krylon32]

I've built many 100's of straight axle chassis, with bones, hairpins and 4 bars. Mostly with Vega steering box's. I tell the customer to set the caster from 5 to7 degrees with 1/8 toe with radials and 3/16 with bias tires. I have always assumed the camber was correct on a new axle? Always a panard with cross steer but not with stock style side steer. Over the years I get no negative feedback on death wobble from my customers. If everything is adjusted right and tight there should be no problem. The only car I've experienced death wobble with was a fresh 32 roadster with Schroeder side steer, dropped CE axle, hairpins, and Excelsior radials. Everything was new and I adjusted and adjusted and could not get it to stop. I leaned toward what many on here refer to as a crutch and installed a P&J front stabilizer. WaLa the car went straight with no death wobble at any speed. I am seeing more and more cars with some brand of stabilizer at shows the past couple of years. Right or wrong they do help in certain instances.

[19ED30]

Originally Posted by Talkwrench

Lawrie if he's on the Wheatstone project he's probably closer to you! : ) is he staying on the cruise liner?

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

Start with the steering box (tight/no wear and adjusted CORRECTLY), pitman arm TIGHT to strg box, No play in drag link/tie rod ends, wishbone ball not out of round and/or replace the rubber ball IF so equipped, adj front wheel bearings, correct toe in/out, caster, camber.
Lose the wide wheels, correct tire pressure. JMO FWIW
Paul in CT

I do not know of any Cruise liner ( ship being built in Va ,Mabe Navy , @ Norfolk , I am four hr noth

There is about 1/2 of play @ steering wheel
& about 1/8 - 1/4 Play When turning steering wheel ( back & forth) with no movement @ pitman arm ,

Shocks , look to be Original , oil drip , car was Restord in early 90s

Tires new off shelf , But have not check made date,

I know more to be checked , I drive it every night , (no rain )
It drives good , just feel like you are chasing the front end back & forth , &
I start to fell a shimmy 55mph up ( I see it in the hood also , but not violent

[FlatheadTed]

If it was death wobble at low speed you can dampen this down by putting a bit more friction on by tightening up the tie rod end screws ,but sector play is a factor ,Ted

[transbytip]

I had a similar problem with a model A checked every thing talked to an old timer said to replace rubber ball on wish bone amazingly it cured the problem cheap fix something yu might try Cliff.

[19ED30]

Up date , I checked The ball seem's ok , no tear & not worn , but seems soft .
I removed the 15x6 205 /75/15 and replaced with 16x4.5 550 R 16's .
Test drove , still shimmies around 60 mph ,
Check the front end again , No prolblems found ,
Check the box , .025 thousands play at pitman arm end , " sector shaft " measured the play at the very end where hole is ,
And .010 thousands play "mesh at worm " side to side "
Adjusted , I can not beleave How much better it steer's , not chaseing the steering Now
But still Shimmy's at 60 mph ,
In the next week or so , I will be changing the Axel to One that is set at 0 on the camber,
To see if that solves the shimmy

[colin1928]

As Ron said King pin inclination or SAI causes 50% of shimmy with beam axles cars
check your scrub radius

[koates]

TIE ROD ENDS, TIE ROD ENDS !!! You stated that they had no play, but you may not feel any play. Remove the split pins and disassemble each end and make sure all the correct cups and springs are inside and assembled correctly. Read the ford parts book for the correct order. Fit new kits and springs if required. Those springs should be bloody strong and over the years they can become weaker. Don't forget the drag link ends as well. Regards Kevin.

[19ED30]

?????
correct cups and springs are inside and assembled correctly
What is Koates referring to ??

[rheltzel]

Originally Posted by 19ED30

I have been reading about death wobble , when these cars were engineered and Built there was no paved roads they weren't Driven at 50 and 60 mph on smooth roads .
I want to know if I can get a Stock 1932 front axle , stock wish bone to drive like the
Cross steer 4 bar on my 1930 , I need to check the ball on the wish bone , that the only thing I have no checked,
I do Not have death wobble, A shimmy , car feel like it's following the seams in the road ,
But no seam seen,

My dad used to tell about how his friend pegged the 90mph speedometer on his '32 3-window on a freshly-graded West Virginia S.R. 259. No "death wobble". It's like everything else on our beloved Flatheads...if they're not in good shape, they have problems. If they're in good mechanical shape, they are absolutely remarkable vehicles which can easily do things that are astounding!

[FlatheadTed]

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I had death wobble and found that A small bit of play in the box and a loose wheel bearing set up a oscillation in the wheel .I tightened the wheel and it went away .Ted

[Karl Wolf]

Originally Posted by rt34

Check your tie rod ends. are you ret rod. also check all shackles and bushings

As I've been reading this thread, I kept tryingto remember the "panhard bar" term. I think you got to have one if the shackles are not set up real tight from the spring to the axle...

When I set up my front end, I thought I was going to go for a dropped axle. I've decided not to. As a consequence, I am running about 9 or 10 degrees camber. I like it. Am also running a VW super beetle front steering shock.

I've had it up past eighty, solid as a rock.

Karl

[19ED30]

I was So surprised , That little as this movement in Box
Was a Jurassic change in Chaseing the wheel while Driving & Hard Steer!!!
I was Ready to Pull Box & Rebuild ,

CHECK YOUR BOX
Mine was , .025 thousands play at pitman arm end , " sector shaft " measured the play at the very end where hole is ,
And .010 thousands play "mesh at worm " side to side "
Adjust

[koates]

Originally Posted by 19ED30

?????
correct cups and springs are inside and assembled correctly
What is Koates referring to ??

I am referring to the type of tie rod ends that were fitted to fords from the model T to 1934. I see you don't know what I am talking about as it seems you have later ball joint type ends on your tie rods. Your car is a long way from being anywhere near an original 1932 ford. Its now a hot rod in which case it could have any type of components fitted. Im sorry but I tend to think of Fords the way they were built when new. This forum is not really directed to highly modified cars. Good luck with your project. Regards, Kevin.

[19ED30]

Originally Posted by koates

I am referring to the type of tie rod ends that were fitted to fords from the model T to 1934. I see you don't know what I am talking about as it seems you have later ball joint type ends on your tie rods. Your car is a long way from being anywhere near an original 1932 ford. Its now a hot rod in which case it could have any type of components fitted. Im sorry but I tend to think of Fords the way they were built when new. This forum is not really directed to highly modified cars. Good luck with your project. Regards, Kevin.

My 30 has original style end's.,

I do not think the 32 is Highly Modified ,
Full Fenderd all steel 32 with 32-40 Ford & Ford style Reproduction Part's ,
It's A Modifie ,

[rotorwrench]

With a radial tire, balance won't always solve problems like tread or belt separation. You can balance on a spin machine but it still won't roll straight. If you can take the tire/wheel off the car and test roll it by itself you may find that it won't track straight when you roll it across a flat surface. This is a good test for tread or belt separation. They will get a little puffy spot that will cause the wheel to wobble when the puffy spot hits the ground. A lot of times you can feel these spots with your hands.

When a stock axle is dropped, it changes the design a bit so a person has to sometimes change the caster and the steering linkage symmetry to get stuff back in to a good working order but it can been done successfully with just the right tweaking of parts. Whom ever drops the axle should be getting the camber into a good spot for the intended spindles to be used. Some Lincoln spindles have to have special camber adjustments to make them work correctly. Most of the dropped axles are set up for round back & square back Ford type spindles.

[B-O-B]

You say it is better but still wants to shimmy @ 60mph.
You may want to look into dyna-beads for balancing your tires.
Little ceramic beads that go inside your tire. I use them on my 34 Kelsey Hayes wheels. Big trucks & rock crawler jeeps use them. Seem pricey but you you only need to do your wheel tire once. They have a web site.
Best of luck getting your problem solved.
B-O-B

[19ED30]

Originally Posted by Krylon32

I've built many 100's of straight axle chassis, with bones, hairpins and 4 bars. Mostly with Vega steering box's. I tell the customer to set the caster from 5 to7 degrees with 1/8 toe with radials and 3/16 with bias tires. I have always assumed the camber was correct on a new axle? Always a panard with cross steer but not with stock style side steer. Over the years I get no negative feedback on death wobble from my customers. If everything is adjusted right and tight there should be no problem. The only car I've experienced death wobble with was a fresh 32 roadster with Schroeder side steer, dropped CE axle, hairpins, and Excelsior radials. Everything was new and I adjusted and adjusted and could not get it to stop. I leaned toward what many on here refer to as a crutch and installed a P&J front stabilizer. WaLa the car went straight with no death wobble at any speed. I am seeing more and more cars with some brand of stabilizer at shows the past couple of years. Right or wrong they do help in certain instances.

A Nother Up date , now with 16x4.5 wheels Radial Excelsior tires ,
Befor I installed a drop axel, I whent threw checking & adjusting steering & components, No problem found , I made up a pan bar ,
I thought I solved the death wobble , WRONG !!
But now I could Execrate threw the death wobble , ( when it occurred @ low speed's)
So I installed the drop Axel, and reused all part's , Test drove No death wobble or shimmy so far ,(up to 80)
The only thing I can see that is different is the wheel scrub ,
Camber from PLUS 1/4 ( Original ) to 0 or Neg 1 degree On new axle .
Now it seem a little darty , so I moved the drag link from the top of the the sterring arm to the bottom , It help a lot ,
By changing the drag link from top to bottom , it changed the angle 6 deg's ,
The darty feel might be because of the rake now , It seems that rear of the car has raised up 1 1/2 inches now , ( bigger gap between fender & tire )
I will try to dearch rear spring & take a few leafs out ,

Does any one know the correct clocking of the spokes for 1932 ford sterring wheel ?
I have checked Greenbook , 32 restoration book & Internet ,
Should the Spokes be @ 10 -2 -6
12 -8-4
1- 5-9

[Mart]

Not 1-5-9.

[19ED30]

Originally Posted by Mart

Not 1-5-9.

The only reason I included 1-5-9 is I see a lot of factory Ford Pic this way ,
I was thinking ,no spokes to interfere with viewing the gauges ,

[1937pickup]

How about a bent rim-my 37 pick up had a shimmy at speed and it turned out to be a bent rim.

[Kahuna]

In my opinion, if everything is correct:, there is no trouble.
My STOCK 32 front end, with a dropped axle, lever shocks
will run to 90 mph (as fast as I've ever had it). No issues at all
Very stable, no funny issues
Flathead powered 2 door sedan

[19ED30]

Originally Posted by Kahuna

In my opinion, if everything is correct:, there is no trouble.
My STOCK 32 front end, with a dropped axle, lever shocks
will run to 90 mph (as fast as I've ever had it). No issues at all
Very stable, no funny issues
Flathead powered 2 door sedan

Now there is no issue, ( shimmy / death wobble ) A stock 32 Axel has a PLUS .250 thousands/ 1/4 inch of Camber ,Built into the Axel from Ford ,
A stock 32 axle that has been dropped or a aftermarket ONE has a 0 zero or a minus 1 degree of Camber with = equals Less Wheel Scrub

[Floyd]

To your question about steering wheel orientation. Both 10 -2 - 6 and 12 - 8 - 4 are correct as Ford had 2 steering wheel vendors who placed the keyway in opposite sides. David G will know if this is an early /late issue or not.
To find center, use the key on the shaft for position.
My opinion