Flatheads breaking off engine stands and falling.

[Jay in Mass]

I'm just wondering if someone has some pictures of flatheads where the bellhousing area broke off while they were bolted to an engine stand. Some say that it is OK to do it to the 49 - 53 engines.
Just need to show someone the pics because they think that it is an old wives tale. (I don't) In the past somewhere, I've seen pics of finished engines that crashed to the ground and the nice new heads and intakes got destroyed.
FWIW, I use the one that bolts to the exhaust manifold bolts.
Thank You

[JSeery]

The 8ba engines are fine, it is the earlier engines you need to be concerned about. The metal in the half-bell area is very thin and the extra distance of the center of gravity from the mounting surface increases the load in that area. I currently have a block that had the half-bell broken, but it was repairable. I have some photos that others have posted.

A lot of people will claim they have mounted them from the bellhousing for years and never had a problem. I'm sure that is true, but all you have to do is take a look at that area to see how fragile it is. Every casting is a little different, you might get lucky (in fact lucky on most blocks) but then when it fails it is often not fixable! Keep in mind, Ford authorized repair used the exhaust bolts to mount the engines.

[19Fordy]

It's just as important to make sure you use an engine stand that has 4 BIG casters touching the ground.

[larrys40]

I know there’s lots that have done it but it’s a risk . I have a Krw stand ( I realize they are expensive and hard to come by but I’m highlighting the mounting method) that has the mount for v8’s from the exhaust port and that is how I would mount them. Make a manifold plate and modify to your modern stand . There’s too much money involved in rebuilding them to take a chance on failure at the rear of the engine flange . Any fix would be weak at best .

[philipswanson]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

It's just as important to make sure you use an engine stand that has 4 BIG casters touching the ground.

I wouldn't say "Just as important ". All my engine stands have 3 castors, and I have several. I have rebuilt Olds 455s, Ford 460s, BBCs, SBCs and many other engines much heavier than a flathead. Hell I even did a 5.9 Cummins diesel on a 3 wheel stand. I have never had one tip. You just have to be a little careful with them and use common sense. The 4 wheelers take up too much room in my shop.

[19Fordy]

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Good points Phillip but. I liken a 3 point engine stand to a 3 point jack stand. All it takes is one little piece of stone, etc. on the floor.

[Newc]

Hi; I have a 59AB that broke and was welded back together.. It was CHEEP! Seems to be ok now, but it did break and fall on previous owner. Hard to see, but there is a bolted plate across the weld- shiny nickle rod weld. newc

[Jay in Mass]

Thanks to everyone that replied. It is risky business, and not worth taking any chances.
It would ruin my day if I ever had one get damaged like that.

JSeery I sent you a PM

[40 Deluxe]

The very first Hot Rod magazine I read in 1959 had an article on repairing a broken bellhousing on a 59A block for this very reason!

[19Fordy]

Not that it's pertinent but , in 1973 I had my present 8BA block roll off a 4 wheel tool cart while going down a ramp ,breaking off a corner near the bottom of bell housing flange. Welded it back together with nickel rod. Still holding. Imagine if it had been on a 3 legged engine stand!

[NealinCA]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

The very first Hot Rod magazine I read in 1959 had an article on repairing a broken bellhousing on a 59A block for this very reason!

I am pretty sure the repair done in that article was on a race engine that had a clutch explosion. Cooks Machine did those repairs on engines that had extensive port work done, so it was worth the expense of the repair. I have a stroker engine that has a bellhousing repair done, just like in the article. The engine does have a lot of port work done and they did very nice work on the block repair.

Now back to engine stand etiquette.

[Mart]

Hi Neal, I remember that article too, and that they stated (as you say) it was a clutch explosion. What impressed me is that they had a lathe big enough to swing the whole engine block!

Mart.

[philipswanson]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Good points Phillip but. I liken a 3 point engine stand to a 3 point jack stand. All it takes is one little piece of stone, etc. on the floor.

After over 50 years of engine building, I have never had a problem with a 3 wheel engine stand tipping over, etc.

[paul2748]

With the 5 or 6 engines I worked on with a 3 wheel stand, I never had any problems

[tubman]

I don't like the 4 wheel stands to build an engine on; the "front axle?" gets in the way and I trip over it occasionally. There is a picture of a stand earlier in this thread where it looks like you couldn't get near enough to the engine to work on it comfortably. I use these three wheel stands to build and store engines. If I have an engine I want to move around for some purposes, I have a 4 wheel "cart" that I use. There is no facility to rotate the engine on this stand, and the engines are carried quite a bit lower to the ground than on a "regular" stand. Two different types of stands for two different purposes.

[Tinker]

It's not that hard to get a exhaust manifold stand conversion for a flathead. Once you have it forever. Engine flips just as easily to work on. works for all flatheads.


Do what works for you. If you do more then one flathead it isn't a bad investment.


Whatever you have, stable is easy to know.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by NealinCA

I am pretty sure the repair done in that article was on a race engine that had a clutch explosion. Cooks Machine did those repairs on engines that had extensive port work done, so it was worth the expense of the repair. I have a stroker engine that has a bellhousing repair done, just like in the article. The engine does have a lot of port work done and they did very nice work on the block repair.

Now back to engine stand etiquette.

Thanks, Neal! I was going from memory, but since have thought more about the article and it's starting to come back to me. You are right, I do believe!

[pooch]

Just an ole wive's tale.

If they broke off at the bellhousing because of a stand, there would be pics of them broken and on the ground beside the stand.

[Mart]

There are pics of them broken off and on the floor beside the stand. It happened to a friend of mine here in the UK. It's the one in the pics shown with the black block and the wheel of the racing special beside it.

He had a lot invested in that motor, so he repaired it.

[AnthonyG]

Orinally was gonna use a 59a & found this on an older thread. There’s an indexing engine stand for pre ‘49’s that mounts to exhaust manifold holes. https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...4&d=1398205062

[AnthonyG]

Sorry Tinker I ditto’d u but the pic might help!

[corvette8n]

https://www.stumpysfabworks.com/stor..._Products.html

Got the stand apapter, lift plate and engine cradle from here.

[JSeery]

An exhaust mount is fairly easy to fab if you can weld. It is at 45 degrees, I used a piece on angle welded to flat plates and bolt the one plate directly to the plate on the engine stand. Lots of ways to build them.

pooch, I currently have a block that was damaged this way and repaired.

[Bored&Stroked]

When I port 39-48 blocks, I bolt to the half bellhousing area - as I need to be able to rotate the block to get the best porting angle. I only do this with just a bare block (doesn't weigh that much). Once I start putting the engine together, then I switch over to an exhaust mounted style (from Stumpy's).

I love the exhaust mounted version for assembly work on the front and rear of the engine -- tilt it up and put the flywheel, clutch and transmission on . . . makes a lot of tasks really easy.

[philipswanson]

Originally Posted by tubman

I don't like the 4 wheel stands to build an engine on; the "front axle?" gets in the way and I trip over it occasionally. There is a picture of a stand earlier in this thread where it looks like you couldn't get near enough to the engine to work on it comfortably. I use these three wheel stands to build and store engines. If I have an engine I want to move around for some purposes, I have a 4 wheel "cart" that I use. There is no facility to rotate the engine on this stand, and the engines are carried quite a bit lower to the ground than on a "regular" stand. Two different types of stands for two different purposes.

That's what I do too. My flat cart is actually a hydraulic table I got from Harbor Fright tools. It is very handy especially for loading and unloading to my truck.
It's a real back saver.

[Kube]

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Originally Posted by pooch

Just an ole wive's tale.

If they broke off at the bellhousing because of a stand, there would be pics of them broken and on the ground beside the stand.

No sir... they do break. A friend of mine had one stored on a stand for a few years. Went out one day and it was on the floor.

[TonyM]

Originally Posted by pooch

Just an ole wive's tale.

If they broke off at the bellhousing because of a stand, there would be pics of them broken and on the ground beside the stand.

Like this one Pooch?

[JSeery]

Believe it is more like this. As this is what happened to the block I am currently working on. It is repaired, but you could lose the whole block.

[JM 35 Sedan]

I've seen these two subjects debated here on Fordbarn for the last 20 years and the advice given has gone about 50/50 in either direction. My take from all the posts I've read on this is....just use common sense for each application or project, and you'll probably be okay, but for those with no common sense, you may be in big trouble anyway.

[flatheadmurre]

Looking at it from an engineering point of view...the issue is that a weak stand with long bolts will flex sideways and then you break off a piece...
Making a a plate closest to the block with tight fitting holes would increase sucess rate.

[Ziggster]

Cast irons are weaker in tension than steels. They are brittle with virtually no ductility and thus are prone to sudden breaking. In any failure, typically there are multiple factors that contributed it as opposed to just a single factor. Looking at the pic in post #2, it seems the thickness of the wall of the bell housing is realitively thin. Also these blocks are now very old, and over time may have been subjected to their fair share of "abuse", perhaps leading to hairline fractures making them predisposed to breaking. From what I've seen, the factory Ford engine stands were designed to support these blocks at both the front and rear. There were likely several reasons, and probably one was a weakness in the bell housing area. So I see contrinbuting factors as such:

1. Thin casting
2. Only partial casting of bell housing leading essentially to 100% tensile loading with no compressive loading
3. Hairline fractures
4. Heavy block to begin with

I just recently went with a home brew exhaust flange support for my engine stand, as there was no way I would ever think of supporting my C59A block using the bell housing for two main reasons.

1. Safety of life and limb
2. Multiple thousands invested

Pretty simple decision I think.

[Ziggster]

My engine. Safe and sound.

[Bored&Stroked]

I just modified one of my heavy 4-wheel stands (made them myself for my heavy Hemi engines). I added some removeable front pieces (reusing a frame mount jig in the process) to mount the front of the engine. This now converts my engine stand into a "test stand" - and I can take it apart afterwards such that this big steel monolith isn't taking up too much space in my shop. (I hate big pieces of steel that occupy large areas! LOL . . . that is except cars!).

Always wanted something like this - that I can break apart for the 99% of the time I DON'T need an engine test stand. I also use these engine stands as the end-pieces to my rotating frame jig . . . gives me a really nice setup for working on frames and suspension stuff.

Stand-FromFrontSide.jpg

Stand-FromRear.jpg

Front-RotatingStand-cropped.jpg

[marko39]

Originally Posted by Kube

No sir... they do break. A friend of mine had one stored on a stand for a few years. Went out one day and it was on the floor.

If storing one on stand that attaches to bell, just cut a 2x4 and wedge it under front to take some of the weight.

[philipswanson]

Originally Posted by marko39

If storing one on stand that attaches to bell, just cut a 2x4 and wedge it under front to take some of the weight.

Better not to do it in the first place!

[19Fordy]

Bolting a cast iron bell housing to an engine stand is an accident waiting to happen.
Check out the weight of the Ford flathead.
https://www.35pickup.com/mulligan/weight.txt

[J and M Machine]

IMG_7560.JPG

Originally Posted by larrys40

i know there’s lots that have done it but it’s a risk . I have a krw stand ( i realize they are expensive and hard to come by but i’m highlighting the mounting method) that has the mount for v8’s from the exhaust port and that is how i would mount them. Make a manifold plate and modify to your modern stand . There’s too much money involved in rebuilding them to take a chance on failure at the rear of the engine flange . Any fix would be weak at best .

I have enclosed pictures so people can see what Larrys40 means.
This is the best way to hold the engine without damage as holding a 59a block from flywheel side will crack and we have seen plenty come in with the crack on bell housing.

[Dodge]

It happened to a friend of mine as I was standing there. All was ok until he turned the
motor upside down and bang it broke off a big chunk and hit the ground.
I spray welded the piece back on.

[19Fordy]

Dodge: Thanks for posting.
Please tell us the year of the engine and if just a "chunk" of the engine broke off and fell to the floor or if the entire engine block fell to the floor.
Was it a 32-48 Ford V-8 or a 49-53 Ford V-8? Thanks.

Also, is this the type of spray welding you used?
https://www.google.com/search?q=spra...qtsP4ZK9wAE_46

Could you have used arc welding rod for cat iron instead?

[russcc]

I made my own attachment for the the engine stand out of 1/4" flatplate with the 7/16" & 3/8" clearance holes that line up with the exhaust manifold bolt holes in the block. I used to just bolt it up to the bellhousing, but felt I could run out of luck at some point. Pretty simple project for a good nights sleep. Will post a photo of the attachment. I believe someone here on the barn makes them for a reasonable price also.

[busmania]

I just bought a stumpys mount. Like yesterday! Will it hold a fully dressed engine?

[cadillac512]

No problem.