51 Merc v/8 into 40 ford

[dixiedelux]

I have made an agreement to buy a 51 Merc engine and will install it in my 40 Ford Tudor with a 39 toploader. I would appreciate input from any one familiar with this swap. I have researched and have came up with the following:
1 I will need the truck series 8rt water pumps

2 I will need a rear sump truck oil pan. I need clarification on this one because I regard all of the oil pans as rear sump.

3 The seller claims to have fabbed a wide belt crank pulley that will accept a 40 crank mounted fan. Is this a good idea. What are other options?

4 How about radiator hoses? Are the 8ba head hose recipicals the same size as the radiator's?

5. I have been told that if I get a 48-52 truck flywheel it will not have to be drilled to accept a 48-52 clutch and pressure plate. Can someone clarify for me the need to drill an 8ba passenger car flywheel to accept the truck clutch and why only a truck clutch and pressure plate will adapt to a early transmission?

6. I have noticed from Van Pelt drawings, that the 51 Merc bell housing set up is a little differnce from the rest. Will there be any problem there?

7. Will there be an issue with starter clearance?

8 Can I use stock ford exhaust manifolds?

Any help will be appreciated!

[JSeery]

On the clutch, not sure of the intended use of your 40, but the truck clutch and pressure plate is not the best combination to use. The larger (and heavier) the clutch assembly the slower the acceleration, no advantage unless you are carrying heavy loads or towing. For me a 9 inch clutch would be the best and a 10 inch as the maximum. Getting a flywheel redrilled is not too big an issue and the clutch plate only has to match the splines on the transmission.

[dixiedelux]

Thanks! That is something to consider. I would need to find and experienced shop to do the drilling because I have been warned that although it "is not to big an issue" not every knows how to do it and it is drilled improperly often. Do you think a passenger car clutch from an 8ba will match the splines on an early (39) transmission?

[JSeery]

See if any of this is of interest:

http://www.flatheadv8.org/rumblest/clutch.pdf

Fort Wayne is the place to talk to about clutches:

http://www.fortwayneclutch.com/index...-kt5102-r.html

[dixiedelux]

Oh yeah! Thanks! Both of those are of great interest to me.

[V8 Bob]

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[QUOTE=dixiedelux;1076912]I have made an agreement to buy a 51 Merc engine and will install it in my 40 Ford Tudor with a 39 toploader. I would appreciate input from any one familiar with this swap. I have researched and have came up with the following:
1 I will need the truck series 8rt water pumps

You want to use the '48-'52 truck pumps, not '53. You'll also need a '48-'53 truck/'49 Ford/Merc wide belt crank and generator pulley.

2 I will need a rear sump truck oil pan. I need clarification on this one because I regard all of the oil pans as rear sump.

The '48-'52 truck pans have rear sumps with large clean-out plates. The '53 truck pan is a stepped rear sump. The other rear sump pan is the '49-'51 Mercury. The '49-'51 Fords and '52-'53 Fords/Mercurys have center sump pans.

3 The seller claims to have fabbed a wide belt crank pulley that will accept a 40 crank mounted fan. Is this a good idea. What are other options?

I think cooling will be better with a higher mounted fan, just not sure about fit/clearance issues. I would try to use a late truck/'49 Ford/Merc wide belt fan.

4 How about radiator hoses? Are the 8ba head hose recipicals the same size as the radiator's?

The 8BA hoses are 1 1/4" while the earlier hoses are larger (I think 1 1/2" ?)

5. I have been told that if I get a 48-52 truck flywheel it will not have to be drilled to accept a 48-52 clutch and pressure plate. Can someone clarify for me the need to drill an 8ba passenger car flywheel to accept the truck clutch and why only a truck clutch and pressure plate will adapt to a early transmission?

You can use any Late Ford/Merc car or truck flywheel. Fords used several Long style sizes (9 1/2"/10"/11") while Mercurys used 10" Borg & Becks that use the same bolt pattern as some modern diaphragm (my choice) clutch plates. The disc has to have an 1 3/8" X 10 spline to match your '39 tranny. Any good clutch re builder can put together a clutch setup.

6. I have noticed from Van Pelt drawings, that the 51 Merc bell housing set up is a little differnce from the rest. Will there be any problem there?

You'll need a '49-'50 Mercury stamped/'48-'52 truck cast 1/2 bell to mate the late flathead to your 39 transmission. The regular production '51 Mercury bell housing is full size designed to be used with the late 4 bolt B/W transmissions that came out in '49 Fords/'51 Mercurys.

7. Will there be an issue with starter clearance?

No problem.

8 Can I use stock ford exhaust manifolds?

Yes, but steel aftermarket headers might be a better option.

QUOTE]

[JSeery]

There is a lot of information in this thread:

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53933
http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...t=53933&page=2

[dixiedelux]

A big thanks for the pertinent and specific information, Bob. That sketchy, gray area about the clearance problems if not using a 40 fan scares me. The builder uses a 40 crank mount fan on his and has no immmediate problems but he says he wishes it ran a little cooler. He is convinced a set of Haney rebuilt pumps will do the job. Was improper cooling inherent in 40 Fords?
He told me today the engine has a Mercury stamped Bell.
I asked about stock ford exhaust manifolds because of being assured I wont have to do exhaust work immediately. I have all new exhaust on my 40. Headers, for sure, will be on the want-to list!

[dixiedelux]

Originally Posted by JSeery

There is a lot of information in this thread:

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53933
http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...t=53933&page=2

Thanks again Teacher! You are certainly giving me plenty of reading homework.
Richard

[V8COOPMAN]

dixiedlx.......One of the problems you may run into on a '40 with a HIGHER-mounted fan is the fan blades trying to share the same real estate with the upper radiator hoses. '40's don't run particularly warmer than other years, as long as your block's water jackets and radiator are squeeky clean, and make sure ALL of the air deflecting/guiding sheet metal pieces are in place. Factory-designed and implemented for a good reason. DD

[rotorwrench]

A lot of the early run of 51 Mercury cars still used the half bell housing that will work for the early transmission. The later 51 Mercs had a one year only casting with an early type clutch equalizer. They are better suited for a transmission with 4-bolt narrow Borg Warner pattern. The 10-inch long type clutch was used on some 48 to early 51 F1 pickups but they are rare now days. The 49 thru early 51 Merc Borg & Beck clutches are an alternative but there are no reproduction clutch or pressure plates available. I get mine rebuilt by Ft Wayne clutch. It may be easier to get the Merc flywheel trilled for a 9 or 10-inch Long type clutch since they are easier to get parts for.

The 49 thru 51 Merc oil pan is not as deep as the truck pan so it is just a bit better for steering linkage clearance.

You would have to install the motor and check the clearance of any "fabricated" fan mounting on the crank pulley. It might work OK. You certainly wouldn't have to worry about adjusting the fan belt that way. The 49 Merc and early F1 models used the fan that dates back to 1942 (the oil filled hub type) but they are wide belt. They just have there own belt to run them.

[19Fordy]

Flathead Jack has thermostat housings for the 8BA that will match the stock 40 radiator outlets. Pricey but pretty and eliminates the need for hose reducers. You could also make and braze some collars onto the stock 49-53 cast iron thermostat housings to increase their OD. http://flatheadjack.com/78.html
When I installed a 50 Merc into my 40 I used:
49-51 Merc rear sump oil pan. Provides more clearance for drag link if you severely "rake" your car.
40 column shift trans. I think the 39 trans. will work also.
49-51 Merc flywheel, pressure plate and clutch. Clutch is 10 in.
40 throw out bearing
8RT wide belt water pumps
Wide belt generator pulley
Stock 40 exhaust manifiolds
49-51 Ford pickup 2 sheave pressed steel wide belt crank pulley
Stock 1940 Ford engine mount biscuits
49-51 Merc pressed steel bellhousing. I think early Ford pick up truck cast bellhousing will also work, even if you use a 10 inch clutch and pressure plate.
I welded "ears" onto the Merc pressed steel bellhousing to accept modified anti-chatter rods. Make sure they clear the clutch and brake pedal when depressed. or, you can make an after-market anti-chatter device that bolts to the Merc belhousing. See photo.
To have the pickup wide belt pulley clear the front cross member I removed the stock "Y" fender support bracket and made new angle iron support brackets that bolt to stock holes in the frame. See photo. Also moved the radiator forward and made new radiator support brackets to attach to the sides of the Walker radiator. (PS: If you decide to use a new radiator, Walker will make you a radiator with smaller top inlets to match your thermostat housings.) Also, disregard notes on crank pulley photo. By far, the most troublesome part of this engine install is respositioning the fan so that it will "clear" the top radiator hoses and still provide adequate cooling. A search may reveal alternative ideas. I ended up making a new fan carrier bracket and fan pulley. You need a lathe to do this. It's a lot of work. Consider an electric fan. I did this install in 1970 and it's still in the car. Hope I didn't forget anything you may need to know.

[Charlie ny]

dix,
The crank mounted fan does sit low but in my application.......'41 1/2 t with
'49 Merc...the hoses clear real nice. At Flatjacks reccomendation I purchased a fan
shroud from Walkers and that made a significant improvement in the original
radiators effectiveness. The shroud was for a '40 Ford and is high impact black
plastic, once installed it looks like steel....fit like a glove.
Charlie ny

[19Fordy]

Charlie, I also installed a Walker plastic shroud. However, I cut it horizontally in half so that you can easily install and remove it when needed.

[Charlie ny]

19,
I did stay with a crank mounted fan and installed my shroud rotated 180
degrees from your install. To do this it required a bit of extensive rework to the
fan mount crank pulley. Being simple minded my set up uses a single 'B' belt.
Charlie ny

[dixiedelux]

Coopman, Rotorwrench, 19fordy and Charlie, thanks for all of the wonderful, informative input. The pictures are real helpful Fordy. The response has been great from Ford Barners! Richard

[19Fordy]

Charlie ny, If possible please do post photos of your modified your fan mount crank pulley. It would surely be a BIG help to others as this is one area for which a simple solution is not readily available..

[dixiedelux]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Charlie ny, If possible please do post photos of your modified your fan mount crank pulley. It would surely be a BIG help to others as this is one area for which a simple solution is not readily available..

Pleaseeeee.......Charlie!

[19Fordy]

OK Charlie. the pressure is ON. Post those photos..............pretty please with a strawberry on top.

[dixiedelux]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

dixiedlx.......One of the problems you may run into on a '40 with a HIGHER-mounted fan is the fan blades trying to share the same real estate with the upper radiator hoses. '40's don't run particularly warmer than other years, as long as your block's water jackets and radiator are squeeky clean, and make sure ALL of the air deflecting/guiding sheet metal pieces are in place. Factory-designed and implemented for a good reason. DD

Coopman, Can you give an example of air deflecting/guiding sheet metal pieces? Is the slashpan an example?

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by dixiedelux

Coopman, Can you give an example of air deflecting/guiding sheet metal pieces? Is the slashpan an example?

Lower panel and two side pieces between fenders and radiator. They guide air THROUGH radiator rather than AROUND it. DD

[Barlea]

There used to be an ad for a correspondence school for auto mechanics that ran for years that featured a pic of a '40 engine bay with a highly chromed 8BA. It used copper plumbing 90s into the top of the rad tank that fit the stock 8BA hoses and stock '53 fan. I also used the 8RT truck pumps and pressed the narrow sheaves on when I did mine back in '67, worked good and cooled no problems. A narrow guard across the top of the rad tank cleared the fan and kept my fingers at the right length. ..B.

[Charlie ny]

Guys,
I will forward some photos of the pulley I modified to 19 for posting. Some
non tricky lathe work required. The depth of my computer skills is what you are
seeing now.
Charlie ny

[dixiedelux]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Lower panel and two side pieces between fenders and radiator. They guide air THROUGH radiator rather than AROUND it. DD

Thanks Coopman,
Recently, I discovered new in a Drake box the above described side panels. I could not figure what they were used for; I thought I had orderd a wrong part or a order was shipped wrong. It must have been a sale item and I thought I might need it sometime, and unbeknownst to me, I do!

[Binx]

Here's an old thread to look over for crank-driven fan options.

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70891

Lonnie

[dixiedelux]

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Lonnie,
Thanks for the effort of accessing the archives. Wow-there is some pretty intense info in the thread!

[fortyfords]

I put a 51 8rt truck engine in my 40, I used the original fender support but cut the cross piece off and the crank pulley cleared good and I never had problems with the fenders or rattling. I used the upper fan pulley setup to put the fan in the upper radiator area and I didn't have any problems with clearing the hoses. I also installed a pusher fan down low and in front of the radiator with a piece of flat aluminum above the fan to keep the air from going straight up instead of going through radiator. Rarely used the electric fan. I just used another hose section on the water outlets on the small neck of the head outlets, cheap and worked good. I like the Flathead Jack water outlet idea better. I also used the truck 10 inch clutch and pressure plate, I can't see much weight difference, the 15 extra horsepower of the truck engine was just perfect.

[dixiedelux]

Originally Posted by fortyfords

I put a 51 8rt truck engine in my 40, I used the original fender support but cut the cross piece off and the crank pulley cleared good and I never had problems with the fenders or rattling. I used the upper fan pulley setup to put the fan in the upper radiator area and I didn't have any problems with clearing the hoses. I also installed a pusher fan down low and in front of the radiator with a piece of flat aluminum above the fan to keep the air from going straight up instead of going through radiator. Rarely used the electric fan. I just used another hose section on the water outlets on the small neck of the head outlets, cheap and worked good. I like the Flathead Jack water outlet idea better. I also used the truck 10 inch clutch and pressure plate, I can't see much weight difference, the 15 extra horsepower of the truck engine was just perfect.

Thanks Fortyfords, I have been told Speedway now sells the larger thermostat housing.

[19Fordy]

Originally Posted by dixiedelux

Coopman, Can you give an example of air deflecting/guiding sheet metal pieces? Is the slashpan an example?

Here's a little expansion of V8's earlier air deflector sheet metal photos as sold by BOB DRAKE. 01A-8434, 01A-8209, 91A-8104/5, 91A-8240.
https://www.bobdrake.com/Categories2...illesheetmetal
The last two photos show home made pieces that block air from going up over the radiator and into the engine compartment. One piece fits in front of the radiator. The other into the hood. The goal is to direct as much fresh air into the radiator as possible and also evacuate as much hot air from the engine compartment as possible. Some folks use (non-stock) louvered inner fender panels to help the hot air escape

[JSeery]

I can't see much weight difference, the 15 extra horsepower of the truck engine was just perfect.[/QUOTE]

The weight difference (by itself) is not really the issue, it is the distance the weight is from the centerline. It is an inertia issue, which is weight related, but it is the weight and distance. Weight near the centerline is not near the issue as weight at the edge of the flywheel or pressure plate and clutch. Depending on your driving requirements it may not be that big an issue for you, but for performance it makes a difference.

[dixiedelux]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Here's a little expansion of V8's earlier air deflector sheet metal photos as sold by BOB DRAKE. 01A-8434, 01A-8209, 91A-8104/5, 91A-8240.
https://www.bobdrake.com/Categories2...illesheetmetal
The last two photos show home made pieces that block air from going up over the radiator and into the engine compartment. One piece fits in front of the radiator. The other into the hood. The goal is to direct as much fresh air into the radiator as possible and also evacuate as much hot air from the engine compartment as possible. Some folks use (non-stock) louvered inner fender panels to help the hot air escape

Great Help again, Fordy! I plan to use the homemade piece in front of radiator. It is used a lot, isn't it? The panel inside the nose of the hood, I have yet to see. I have the new I outer grill panels #91A-8104/5. I have new inner fender panels. I plan to have my hood louvered. I suppose it would be prudent to drop the panels off with the hood. the problem with that is all of the new Drake paint will have to be removed and I am not sure there is much flat area to louver. Is there an aftermarket vendor for the 40 inner fender panels? How about Mr. 40?

[V8COOPMAN]

[QUOTE=dixiedelux;1078326] The panel inside the nose of the hood, I have yet to see. QUOTE]

That hood panel nose piece blocks HOT air that didn't escape the engine compartment from being forced back over the top of the radiator and down, so as NOT to be sucked back through the radiator.........already HOT. Good piece to install. DD

[Ol' Ron]

I made these adapters for a friend

[Ol' Ron]

I'd use the flywheel & Pressure plat that comes with the merc. and buy a new 10" disk that fit's the 40 trans. This is probably the most commom swap ever made. You can inprove the performance of the engine by replacing the heads with EAB heads and installing a 2GC carb with one of Bubbas distributrs. This will reall wake up that ol merc.

[fortyfords]

Originally Posted by JSeery

I can't see much weight difference, the 15 extra horsepower of the truck engine was just perfect.

The weight difference (by itself) is not really the issue, it is the distance the weight is from the centerline. It is an inertia issue, which is weight related, but it is the weight and distance. Weight near the centerline is not near the issue as weight at the edge of the flywheel or pressure plate and clutch. Depending on your driving requirements it may not be that big an issue for you, but for performance it makes a difference.[/QUOTE]

JSeery, I see your point, I am not much of a performance guy but I like a little more power for cruising and the engine swap was well worth the trouble for the results. The truck engine weighed a lot more than the 85 hp engine that I had to install another long leaf spring in the front to keep the car from bottoming out over rough bumps. Thanks for your input.

[dixiedelux]

[QUOTE=V8COOPMAN;1078345]

Originally Posted by dixiedelux

The panel inside the nose of the hood, I have yet to see. QUOTE]

That hood panel nose piece blocks HOT air that didn't escape the engine compartment from being forced back over the top of the radiator and down, so as NOT to be sucked back through the radiator.........already HOT. Good piece to install. DD

Yes Sir! Your good explanation makes me aware that that piece would be benificial! Thanks Again!

[dixiedelux]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

I'd use the flywheel & Pressure plat that comes with the merc. and buy a new 10" disk that fit's the 40 trans. This is probably the most commom swap ever made. You can inprove the performance of the engine by replacing the heads with EAB heads and installing a 2GC carb with one of Bubbas distributrs. This will reall wake up that ol merc.

Hi Ron,
I guess the Merc is running a ford manifold and a stromberg. I ask for the Merc manifold in the deal. I was thinking about the rochester right off the bat. Why would the EAB heads be better than the Merc's? From what do they come off? Why would the Bubba unit be better than me installing a petronix unit in the stock Merc dizzy?
Ol' Richard

[Ol' Ron]

The EAB heads have a higher CR, and the stock distributor is worthless and can't be used with anyother carb than the original. Running a cinverted GM unit will give a much better Ignition system. Not just my idea, allot of guys do this.
Now depending on when the 51Merc engine was made, it probably already has the right oil man and Bell housing. Most of these had a B&B pressure plate and the right disk, so it's a bolt in.

[Charlie ny]

Dixie,
I'm back to the fan question.........I've had no luck transferring the photos
of my reworked pulley and hub.....then I read BINXs post and how he did the job....
with photos too. If you haven't read his post yet be sure to find it. His solution is
very straight forward and effective. I did get the same results only with lots more
work. I do recommend the WALKER shroud. I'm using the original Ford split core
radiator, 5 blade fan, and the shroud.
Charlie ny

[19Fordy]

Originally Posted by dixiedelux

Great Help again, Fordy! I plan to use the homemade piece in front of radiator. It is used a lot, isn't it? The panel inside the nose of the hood, I have yet to see. I have the new I outer grill panels #91A-8104/5. I have new inner fender panels. I plan to have my hood louvered. I suppose it would be prudent to drop the panels off with the hood. the problem with that is all of the new Drake paint will have to be removed and I am not sure there is much flat area to louver. Is there an aftermarket vendor for the 40 inner fender panels? How about Mr. 40?

PLEASE do not punch louvres in your 1940 Ford hood as it really takes away from the beauty of the hood, in my opinion. Instead, buy louvered inner fender panels. http://www.mr40s.com/mr.-40-s-stuff.html However, I see there are no "ribs' stamped into the louvered panels. This might cause a vibration and subsequent cracks in the sheet metal. Have you thought about fabricating some very subtle air scoops into the OEM fender panels? I bet it could be tastefully done.

[19Fordy]

Originally Posted by dixiedelux

Great Help again, Fordy! I plan to use the homemade piece in front of radiator. It is used a lot, isn't it? The panel inside the nose of the hood, I have yet to see. I have the new I outer grill panels #91A-8104/5. I have new inner fender panels. I plan to have my hood louvered. I suppose it would be prudent to drop the panels off with the hood. the problem with that is all of the new Drake paint will have to be removed and I am not sure there is much flat area to louver. Is there an aftermarket vendor for the 40 inner fender panels? How about Mr. 40?

The little piece of metal between the radiator and the hood latch bracket is not commonly used. Instead, there is a sheet metal piece that you can buy that fits over the entire opening on top of the grille. It's called a grille shroud and looks like this:
http://www.mr40s.com/mr.-40-s-stuff.html Figure out a way to install it without having to drill holes into your existing sheetmetal brackets. Maybe, use industrial Vel-Cro.
Make your own piece out of thick cardboard, first, to see how it works before spending any $$. Again, try to avoid drilling any holes into your OEM metal.

[dixiedelux]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

The little piece of metal between the radiator and the hood latch bracket is not commonly used. Instead, there is a sheet metal piece that you can buy that fits over the entire opening on top of the grille. It's called a grille shroud and looks like this:
http://www.mr40s.com/mr.-40-s-stuff.html Figure out a way to install it without having to drill holes into your existing sheetmetal brackets. Maybe, use industrial Vel-Cro.
Make your own piece out of thick cardboard, first, to see how it works before spending any $$. Again, try to avoid drilling any holes into your OEM metal.

Your link would not go through, Fordy. I believe this is the one; I hope it works:
http://www.mr40s.com/mr.-40-s-stuff.html Sorry! This link doesn't work on my computer
Now, that grill shroud, I have seen frequently. It is the the one, pattern reversed, that is up in the nose of the hood that I havn't seen. Of course I don't regularly look up into that area. This link also has the lourvered inner fenders. I paid only 100-125, sale priced, from Bob Drake. Considering the price of lourvering, the Mr. 40's louvered examples are not that picy compared to Mr. 40's "flat" unit's. I'll check mine at the shop today, but mine seemed to have a lot of contours, making it not conducive to lourving.

[dixiedelux]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

The EAB heads have a higher CR, and the stock distributor is worthless and can't be used with anyother carb than the original. Running a cinverted GM unit will give a much better Ignition system. Not just my idea, allot of guys do this.
Now depending on when the 51Merc engine was made, it probably already has the right oil man and Bell housing. Most of these had a B&B pressure plate and the right disk, so it's a bolt in.

Yeah, I know the bubba distributor is a popular upgrade. He must have somthing goin' on! Now with my Merc 4 bolt manifold, I assumed I would have to get an adapter to run a Rochester 2G. True? Are the EAB heads off of trucks?

[V8COOPMAN]

The early Rochester (like used on 265 and 283 Chevies) bolts right-on the Merc manifold. Check to make sure the throttle butterflies open fully. DD

[dixiedelux]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

The early Rochester (like used on 265 and 283 Chevies) bolts right-on the Merc manifold. Check to make sure the throttle butterflies open fully. DD

Thanks Coopman! Do you agree with Coopman that the rochester is a good choice. I forgot to inform you that the builder is listing a 3/4 Isky as being installed, 77 series, I believe. Is there a stock ford or an interesting, conservative air breather I can use with the Rochester. Do you kow how much CFM? I suppose these are readily available, and affordable, I hope?

[dixiedelux]

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Originally Posted by Charlie ny

Dixie,
I'm back to the fan question.........I've had no luck transferring the photos
of my reworked pulley and hub.....then I read BINXs post and how he did the job....
with photos too. If you haven't read his post yet be sure to find it. His solution is
very straight forward and effective. I did get the same results only with lots more
work. I do recommend the WALKER shroud. I'm using the original Ford split core
radiator, 5 blade fan, and the shroud.
Charlie ny

Thanks Charlie,
Are you refering to the link he has posted, or one of his own post. I cannot find anythig he posted about crank mounted fans in his archives.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by dixiedelux

Thanks Coopman! Do you agree with Coopman that the rochester is a good choice. I forgot to inform you that the builder is listing a 3/4 Isky as being installed, 77 series, I believe. Is there a stock ford or an interesting, conservative air breather I can use with the Rochester. Do you kow how much CFM? I suppose these are readily available, and affordable, I hope?

The small, early Chevy models I spoke of were rated at 278 CFM.....a good size for a mild flathead. Click the link below for some comprehensive info. DD

http://www.chevyclassicsclub.com/wp-...f/tech0213.pdf

[Charlie ny]

Dix,
Check out post #25....Binx referenced a link from a long time ago by another
Barner. Jim Pullen is going to assist me in posting my photos and sketch. It might be a
while.
Many ways to get 'er done !
Thanks,
Charlie ny

[dixiedelux]

Thanks for the rochester tech link, DD. I'm going to go over the Binx link tonight, Charlie. I have already opened it and there is a bunch of good stuff in there. The responses and help I have received on here has exceeded my expectations. Comparatively, the identical thread died the first day on the H.A.M.B. with 3 or 4 responses. Thanks Ford Barners!

[36fordguy]

Most of the info is correct but not complete. If its truly a mercury motor the flywheel is drilled for a B&B cover. This cover will not work the fingers on the clutch are too long and will interfere with the larger TO bearing. The 1949 or 1950 B&B cover is what you need. These are extremely hard to find. Buy a new flywheel that is drilled for the 10" long clutch (59A) using the 8BA ( 9.5" cover) and a 59A disc will not work only chatter - mercil ? spring mismatch - Bruce Landcaster or Old Ron should be your source. There are a lot of combination that work and they are aware of them. Its easy if you have the correct parts. and No exhaust manifold may not work because the manifold crossover pipe hit the 8RT pump mounts I'm a bad typer but continue your research 36fordguy

[36fordguy]

Less take one issue at a time The adapter housing if you find the cast iron adapter (truck) and starter plate (mercury) flat plate this will bolt up to the 8RT pan - two lower bolts to pan mount. The 8RT pan takes a different oil pickup and screen assembly - Now depending on your oil pump (M15 or M19) so righ here are a few combinations you have to work out depending on the parts you can find 39fordguy

[36fordguy]

I have found that finding a pure 1949 to 1953 mercury or 8BA motor is rare most have been modified along the way so you will find various combination that really did not exist as produced so get familiar with what the parts should look like. Bruce, Ron and fordbarn.com will help you 36fordguy

[19Fordy]

Originally Posted by dixiedelux

Your link would not go through, Fordy. I believe this is the one; I hope it works:
http://www.mr40s.com/mr.-40-s-stuff.html Sorry! This link doesn't work on my computer
Now, that grill shroud, I have seen frequently. It is the the one, pattern reversed, that is up in the nose of the hood that I havn't seen. Of course I don't regularly look up into that area. This link also has the lourvered inner fenders. I paid only 100-125, sale priced, from Bob Drake. Considering the price of lourvering, the Mr. 40's louvered examples are not that picy compared to Mr. 40's "flat" unit's. I'll check mine at the shop today, but mine seemed to have a lot of contours, making it not conducive to lourving.

5/1/15 No one makes the sheet metal pieces that fit up into the nose of the hood. I first made a pattern for them out cardboard and then cut each out of 16 ga. sheet metal. 18 ga. will also work. You just tuck them in so they lie flat and use a couple of dabs of silicone glue to hold them in place. It's really easy.

[V8COOPMAN]

Below is an example of another type deflector offered by Drake and others, which effectively serves the same purpose. Maybe a little easier to install, and easily fabricated at home. DD

[rotorwrench]

[QUOTE=36fordguy;1078672]Most of the info is correct but not complete. If its truly a mercury motor the flywheel is drilled for a B&B cover. This cover will not work the fingers on the clutch are too long and will interfere with the larger TO bearing. The 1949 or 1950 B&B cover is what you need. These are extremely hard to find.

The early 51 Merc motors thru somewhere in February of 1951 still had the big 1 3/8" 10-spline transmission with the round pattern. If the motor comes with the 49 thru E51 stamped metal half bell and a clutch/flywheel, then it may have the right clutch. If it doesn't come with a half bell or flywheel then it may be easier to get a 9 1/2" flywheel or an 11" and just get it drilled for a 10" Long type. Most machine shops should be able to do that. If it has a Mercury flywheel with 6 evenly spaced PP bolts then you could find a 49 to E51 Merc clutch pressure plate with Borg & Beck number 0988 or 1310 stamped on. Ft Wayne clutch could likely convert the late 51 to 53 PP or a model 10A7 PP to the 49 to E51 Merc PP configuration if asked. The 10" Springflex B&B/Mercury clutch plate with the 1 3/8" 10-spline hub might be the hard part but Ft Wayne clutch could likely fix up one of those too. I still find these old cores on flea-pay now and then but you have to ask for the B&B part number to be sure.

[Charlie ny]

DIX,
We'll keep this going until we hit 100 responses.
Charlie ny

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Charlie ny

DIX,
We'll keep this going until we hit 100 responses.
Charlie ny

Heck yeah.......as long as we continue to offer-up ACCURATE info. This has to be one of the most common old Ford swaps going now-a-days. DD

[Ol' Ron]

Back to the engine mods: the truck and Merc heads are low compression, The 8BA is next and the EAB is the heighest CR stock head. This milled for .05-" piston to head clearance cam increase you CR about 1 point. What you must realize is: the factory advertized CR is way off (7.2) in all the years I've been doing this, I've never seen them any where near this.

[V8 Bob]

Not sure why sooo many want to stay with the obsolete, hard to find and probably more expensive B&B pressure plate when using a late Merc flywheel, VS switching to a modern, better, cheaper diaphragm pressure plate that uses the same evenly spaced bolt pattern. They have different finger styles (bent and straight) to accommodate large and small T/O bearings. There are diaphragms that also are direct replacement for several Long p-plate patterns. Seems few are aware that diaphragms have been the clutch of choice for over 40 years, and for several good reasons. Just curious.

[dixiedelux]

Originally Posted by V8 Bob

Not sure why sooo many want to stay with the obsolete, hard to find and probably more expensive the B&B pressure plate when using a late Merc flywheel, VS switching to a modern, better, cheaper diaphragm pressure plate that uses the same evenly spaced bolt pattern. They have different finger styles (bent and straight) to accommodate large and small T/O bearings. There are diaphragms that also are direct replacement for several Long p-plate patterns. Seems few are aware that diaphragms have been the clutch of choice for over 40 years, and for several good reasons. Just curious.

I guess you are reiterating what you have already reccomended to me:


You can use any Late Ford/Merc car or truck flywheel. Fords used several Long style sizes (9 1/2"/10"/11") while Mercurys used 10" Borg & Becks that use the same bolt pattern as some modern diaphragm (my choice) clutch plates. The disc has to have an 1 3/8" X 10 spline to match your '39 tranny. Any good clutch re builder can put together a clutch setup.

I must say Bob after your first and a few other posts, I was beginng to view my project with clarity and somewhere down the line it became muddled to me again. B&B? At first, I interpereted it to be block and bellhousing. But Borg and Beck is what it is supposed to mean, right? Later this evening, I am going to reread the post that were posted during the day, while I was gone. I started to ge lost during 36v/8 post and some of the responses. Very Technical. Maybe I'll go to Van Pelt and look at some illustrations. Tell me: What is the difference between a modern diaphram cluth plate, your choice, and a non- modern style which I think the reference is Long Style?

[dixiedelux]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Back to the engine mods: the truck and Merc heads are low compression, The 8BA is next and the EAB is the heighest CR stock head. This milled for .05-" piston to head clearance cam increase you CR about 1 point. What you must realize is: the factory advertized CR is way off (7.2) in all the years I've been doing this, I've never seen them any where near this.

Thanks for the help Ron, I may need that info later. This Merc is a fresh rebuild. My main objective is to get my 40 Mobile again. Initially, with the complete set-up provided to me from builder/seller. The swithch back to Merc manifold, rochester, and Bubby diz will be on the to-do agenda. I hope I never have to take the head off!

[36fordguy]

I just got done putting a 1953 merc motor in my 36 pickup. Here locally I tried to get my flywheel redrilled to 59A 10" long PP and they would not touch it due to liability (SFI cetification) all Speedway FW are SFI cert. So I gave up and bought a new FW. This may not be true in all areas with different machine shops 36fordguy

[36fordguy]

I used the castiron truck bell housing. When I tried to install my 12V starter with the late model bendix spring it would not clear the FF, the bendix spring assembly was to big so I went back to the old style starter assembly. This might work with the pressed steel housing. 36forguy

[36fordguy]

On cam choice - I upgraded from a 59A engine to the 1953 merc - Mainly because I had a very radical cam (Howard M14) this cam was difficult to drive around at low speed ( it idled at 1000 rpm) So I'm going with the stock 53 merc cam. Ron has lots of experience with different cams and their driveability. 36fordguy

[dixiedelux]

Originally Posted by 36fordguy

I just got done putting a 1953 merc motor in my 36 pickup. Here locally I tried to get my flywheel redrilled to 59A 10" long PP and they would not touch it due to liability (SFI cetification) all Speedway FW are SFI cert. So I gave up and bought a new FW. This may not be true in all areas with different machine shops 36fordguy

Originally Posted by 36fordguy

I used the castiron truck bell housing. When I tried to install my 12V starter with the late model bendix spring it would not clear the FF, the bendix spring assembly was to big so I went back to the old style starter assembly. This might work with the pressed steel housing. 36forguy

Originally Posted by 36fordguy

On cam choice - I upgraded from a 59A engine to the 1953 merc - Mainly because I had a very radical cam (Howard M14) this cam was difficult to drive around at low speed ( it idled at 1000 rpm) So I'm going with the stock 53 merc cam. Ron has lots of experience with different cams and their driveability. 36fordguy

On the first quote: That is one reason why I hope not to have the need to have a flywheel drilled.

2nd quote: Is a pressed steel housing the same as a stamped housing. This set-up is supposed to have a Merc stamped bell housing.

3rd quote: How will the Isky-77 peform with a sromberg and stock ignition? How about with a Rochester and Bubba's ignition set-up?

[36fordguy]

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The 1949 or 1950 pressed bell will work but the 1953 is a different animal. I found the cast iron one first. The Isky 77 is a good mild cam and should work O.K. Go with the Bubba's GM dist with mech and vacuum advance with Bubba's curves. I'm using the MSD early distributor with reluctor and pickup and MSD 6A box. Changed the springs and limit bushing to have all in at 1500 rpm max adv at 18 degree to start with my msd does not have vac. adv. Holly 390 4 barrel. I do have the loadomatic with a pertronic module- The holly has both ported and manifold vac. but the cap on the ford dist. had solid wire and not compatible with the msd 6A box. The 8 mm spiral wire will work in the Ford dist but I already the msd dist all wired up so used it. My goal is to have a good driver that does not overheat (easy ?) The later pumps aftermarket circulate 25 percent more water then 59A pumps. I was going to go with skip's pumps but I need thermostats in the winter (too cold here) 36forguy

[V8 Bob]

Originally Posted by dixiedelux

I guess you are reiterating what you have already reccomended to me:....What is the difference between a modern diaphram cluth plate, your choice, and a non- modern style which I think the reference is Long Style?

The old Long and Borg & Beck designs use several small but strong coil springs, while the diaphragm design uses one large spring, resulting is far fewer parts, reduced cost, lower pedal efforts, and are the reasons they have been the general production clutch of choice for many years. The B&B went away in the '50s/'60s, and Ford ditched the Long in the '70s. Do a little research and I'm sure you will agree the diaphragm is a better clutch choice.

[dixiedelux]

Originally Posted by V8 Bob

The old Long and Borg & Beck designs use several small but strong coil springs, while the diaphragm design uses one large spring, resulting is far fewer parts, reduced cost, lower pedal efforts, and are the reasons they have been the general production clutch of choice for many years. The B&B went away in the '50s/'60s, and Ford ditched the Long in the '70s. Do a little research and I'm sure you will agree the diaphragm is a better clutch choice.

Yes, I will do that Bob. I am also calling Ft. Wayne clutch next week.
Thanks, Richard

[rotorwrench]

My 51 Mercs use the Borg & Beck design and they work very well with very reasonable pedal pressure since they do not have a full spring set in the pressure plate. They may be old and obsolete but they are a very viable option for an early style build with the old 3-speed top shifter. Once a person has a good clutch in there it won't matter what brand or type as long as it works. If the engine comes with that clutch, Ft Wayne clutch can rebuild it for a decent price.

I sort to like the obsolete stuff but it is nice to know that there are modern options. With the diaphragm type you still have to make certain you have a set up that will work for the early style throw out bearing & clutch controls. The diaphragm type needs the modified fingers and you still need a 1 3/8 10-spline disc.

[dixiedelux]

Once a person has a good clutch in there it won't matter what brand or type as long as it works. If the engine comes with that clutch, Ft Wayne clutch can rebuild it for a decent price.

My main objective is that IT WORKS! I'll be in contact with Ft. Wayne clutch. Thanks

[dixiedelux]

Barners,
At the end of the week, I will be going to pick up the Merc engine. It is on a test stand. I know that after his initial fire and 15 minute test run, he declared it ready to go. I told him "Great, but I will give it a more vigourous test, on the stand, before I purchase." What do you guys reccomend?
Dixie

[JSeery]

Is this a new rebuild or an older running engine? If it is a new rebuild, you need to limit the run time on the engine stand, even the 15 minutes it has already been run is not a good idea. If it is an older engine, not a problem.

[dixiedelux]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Is this a new rebuild or an older running engine? If it is a new rebuild, you need to limit the run time on the engine stand, even the 15 minutes it has already been run is not a good idea. If it is an older engine, not a problem.

It is a new rebuild. I am struggling with your rational. So, a new rebuild should not be run on the test stand? What is the purpose of the test stand, if not to test a rebuilt engine? Is the purpose of the test stand to test used engines? So what is the limit an engine should be run on the test stand after a rebuild? How does test-stand-time differ from break in time, installed in the car. Just askin'!

[JSeery]

That is why a lot of folks on here are not supportive of test stands!! Ol Ron for one and Walt, etc. The issue is seating the rings, the engine needs a load on it for the rings to seat properly. Go running an engine on a test stand for very long without a load and you will end up with ring problems. Another problem is allowing a new engine to idle both on a test stand or in a car. New camshafts (as well as other components) will not seat properly if allowed to idle, the RPM need to be kept up and varied for at least the first 15 to 20 min. after starting. A lot of cam failures can be traced to improper cam break in.

Now a few questions for you, what is accomplished by running an engine on a stand? Other than assuring it will start and a few minor test what is being accomplished? I would not want to run a new engine on a stand (or a none moving car) for more than a few minutes. Any amount of time an engine is run without a load on it is too much, but there are some practical considerations (as assuring an engine runs).

Ok, now, to break in an engine, it needs to be under a load and not driven at a constant speed. I would want at least 1500-2000 RPM on a new cam and then vary the speed up and down every minute or so. No driving at a constant speed for any extended time and limit idling of any kind until there is some time on the engine.

[dixiedelux]

Originally Posted by JSeery

That is why a lot of folks on here are not supportive of test stands!! Ol Ron for one and Walt, etc. The issue is seating the rings, the engine needs a load on it for the rings to seat properly. Go running an engine on a test stand for very long without a load and you will end up with ring problems. Another problem is allowing a new engine to idle both on a test stand or in a car. New camshafts (as well as other components) will not seat properly if allowed to idle, the RPM need to be kept up and varied for at least the first 15 to 20 min. after starting. A lot of cam failures can be traced to improper cam break in.

Now a few questions for you, what is accomplished by running an engine on a stand? Other than assuring it will start and a few minor test what is being accomplished? I would not want to run a new engine on a stand (or a none moving car) for more than a few minutes. Any amount of time an engine is run without a load on it is too much, but there are some practical considerations (as assuring an engine runs).

Ok, now, to break in an engine, it needs to be under a load and not driven at a constant speed. I would want at least 1500-2000 RPM on a new cam and then vary the speed up and down every minute or so. No driving at a constant speed for any extended time and limit idling of any kind until there is some time on the engine.

Ok thanks! I anticipated your rational would be based on operating the engine without a load. I was going to high idle and vary speeds for about 30 minutes to see if oil pressure was maintained, and equally important, it didn't overheat. What are the few minor test you mentioned.
Thanks for the break-in tips.

Richard

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by dixiedelux

Ok thanks! I anticipated your rational would be based on operating the engine without a load. I was going to high idle and vary speeds for about 30 minutes to see if oil pressure was maintained, and equally important, it didn't overheat. What are the few minor test you mentioned.
Thanks for the break-in tips.

Richard

Bad plan, but it's your (soon to be) engine, not something I would do. I wouldn't want to run a new engine on a stand for more than a couple of minutes and it's already gone way beyond that. While your doing all this checking (I assume to assure it's a good engine) your damaging it. Doesn't seem like a reasonable approach to me, but again, it's your engine.

[dixiedelux]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Bad plan, but it's your (soon to be) engine, not something I would do. I wouldn't want to run a new engine on a stand for more than a couple of minutes and it's already gone way beyond that. While your doing all this checking (I assume to assure it's a good engine) your damaging it. Doesn't seem like a reasonable approach to me, but again, it's your engine.

The reason I am posting on here is to benefit from folks that have more experience and expertise than I. I did not intend to engage you in argument about what I WAS (past tense) going to do! Ok, you convinced me; Bad Plan! What would your pan be? How about reading my entire post and respond to my question about the few simple test you ambiguously refered to in your first post. In other words " What would you do if you had benifit of buying a newly rebuilt flathead still on a test stand"?

[JSeery]

LOL, like your reply. Wish we could get some other inputs here, it is always good to have multiple inputs! If it were me, I would be interested in the history of the engine, who rebuilt it and what parts were used. As far as running it I'm not sure what you can test other than it starts, runs, doesn't vibrate, oil pressure, etc. Could put a vacuum gauge on it. I would start the engine and run it through various RPM ranges and see how smooth it runs, are there any strange noises. That should not take more than a minute or two. Beyond that not sure what you could test running it. Look it over for water leaks, etc. that's about it. If you are really concerned about the health of the engine you would want to do a compression test on all of the cylinders. I'm not sure you could really test it for overheat issues on a test stand, there are a lot of variables to the overheat issue.

[dixiedelux]

The ad was in the v/8 times magazine and the builder is an Early v/8 club member, as I am. He is a retired Ford mechanic, who has rebuilt both of the 8ba's in his 40 Tudor and 35 pu. An incentive to me is that he has already did the 40/8ba swap and is supposed to outfit me with all parts needed afte I OK deal. He said I will be provided with receipts. I hope that includes machine receipts. the compressio test sounds like a real good idea. I understand about overheating variables. This is my first time buying rebuilt, and with already having two used, running flatheads go from good to worst, you can understand my aprehension.

[JSeery]

Be nice to have a few others weight in on this!

[Charlie ny]

Just my 2 cents......Don't run it anymore without a load....that said we're talking a
flathead motor...small bore long stroke pretty stiff ring pressure, probably no harm
has been done. On the other hand big bore short stroke and low tension rings......
harm could easily be done.....I'm talking those out dated ohv motors.
I certainly respect other points of view.......this view is mine.
Gracias,
Charlie ny

[Charlie ny]

Guys,
We're closing in on 100 replies !
Charlie ny

[dixiedelux]

Originally Posted by Charlie ny

Just my 2 cents......Don't run it anymore without a load....that said we're talking a
flathead motor...small bore long stroke pretty stiff ring pressure, probably no harm
has been done. On the other hand big bore short stroke and low tension rings......
harm could easily be done.....I'm talking those out dated ohv motors.
I certainly respect other points of view.......this view is mine.
Gracias,
Charlie ny

I respect your point of view Charlie. You are backing up Jseery's. I have never heard about damage being done by lack of load, but it you guy's experience and expertise that I am hoping to benifit from. I remember years ago, at a big event (probably a big street rod gathering) a guy in the vendor area had a bad ass blown flathead he was demonstrating. It seemed that every hour he would crank it up on the test stand and let it run for 10-12 minutes to gather a crowd, me included. From that experience I assumed that was the puurpose of a test stand: to test the engine. I wouldn't feel right buying the mill without at least hearing it start up and run. I have heard guys lamenting that they sure wish they could hear it run when talking about a new or different engine. I thought this was a real advantageous situation for to have a potential purchase on a test stand. Charlie, when you rebuild, do you go straight from the rebuild stand into the millhouse?

[Binx]

Putting the load on a newly rebuilt engine as well as varying the "on" and "off" throttle is to get the rings to seat properly. A hard throttle builds pressure inside the ring grooves to force the rings out to the cylinders as well as mating the ring to the piston's ring land. Off throttle draws a hard vacuum and pulls oil up the cylinder wall (as much as oil control rings will allow) to cool and disperse metal shavings and carbon particles as the rings literally scrape the the rough surface of a honed cylinder and lap themselves. I don't doubt what charlie ny says about high tension rings - especially iron. They'll seat to the walls quickly but only a healthy on-and-off load will get them to seat to the ring lands.

Lonnie

[dixiedelux]

Ok Lonnie, that is some pretty heavy-duty stuff. I am convinced now that I should start and run the engine only for a short time, listening for strange sounds, leaks and checking oil pressure. Or should I just do a compression check and tell him to load it up, if compressin checks. What would you do, Lonnie?

[Binx]

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I've never been in your shoes before but if I was, I would ask for a warranty/guarantee since you expect it to be a solid engine and he is selling it as such.

Lonnie

[Charlie ny]

Dix,
Quick run in on the stand ( with mufflers ), ck oil pressure, look for leaks,
listen for strange noises with my dear old Dads huge screw driver. All at about 550
to 600 rpm. I do use diesel grade oil for this then drain it and go to Rotella. Total
time less than 10 minutes.......depends on how nervous I get.
Charlie ny

[dixiedelux]

Ok, sounds good Charlie. Rotella for continued use? That is what I have been using in my babbit pounder chevy 6 (15-40) for a few years now.

[dixiedelux]

How much compression should the Merc show, Optimum? 110-120?
With the rings not sealed, I won't expect to see optimum pressure, but I will look for consistency between cylinders. What compression numbers should I see on a fresh rebuild?

[dixiedelux]

10426550_10203383990755169_2684401288628944863_n.jpg

I hope this proves to be a happy union!

[dixiedelux]

I have the engine in my 40 ready to pull out with the exception of chatter rod removal. At the frame, does it take an inserted square socket to remove chatter rod? I have chatter rods loosened at the block. Will the block side over the rod easily?