The Ford Barn

1912Krit · 12-19-2021, 02:47 PM

This morning I was on my merry way reassembling my water pump and 2 blade repro fan from Snyder's. When I mounted the fan on the shaft with keyway, the fan pulley dropped down over the water pump casting but when turned it scraped the casting. I removed the fan and put a spacer between the casting and fan, which gave enough room with mini clearance for the fan to turn without scraping the casting, but now the bolt holding the fan on the shaft will only catch a few threads, not low enough to get a cotter pin through.

Any suggestions?

chrs1961815 · 12-19-2021, 02:54 PM

A spacer is not a correct answer to this issue. The reproduction water pumps until recently were not quite cut round so they rubbed on the pulley. You have to find the high spot and sand/grind it down until it does not rub no more.

1912Krit · 12-19-2021, 03:06 PM

I am using my original casting, just using repro rebuild kit and fan from Snyder's. Hate to alter the original!
https://ibb.co/v4NWrkD
https://ibb.co/N1992dN

chrs1961815 · 12-19-2021, 03:17 PM

That is odd in that case. It must be the fan if it is for sure an original pump. At any rate, you have to get rid of the high spot to use that casting.

Tom Endy · 12-19-2021, 04:30 PM

I have seen this before. I suspect some pump housings were made by different aftermarket suppliers after the Model A went out of production and they vary in outside dimensions. The people making the reproduction aluminum two-blade fans may not be taking this into consideration. The ones I have been getting in recent years from Bratton's all have fit ok and were in excellent balance. I have a balance testing rig.

One option is to find where the inside of the fan is hitting the housing and grind some material off the pump housing.

Tom Endy

1912Krit · 12-19-2021, 04:40 PM

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Thanks for the info. I think the problem is the taper in the fan. The shaft and rebuild kit fit perfect. However, the fan slides all the way back to hit the housing and only in that position will the end bolt tighten just enough to get the cotter pin through - but the fan pulley is jammed against the housing and won't turn.

It must be that the repro fan is defective?

1912Krit · 12-19-2021, 04:41 PM

1912Krit · 12-19-2021, 04:42 PM

https://ibb.co/SXLfmHk

1912Krit · 12-19-2021, 04:45 PM

The water pump is from my 1930 Ford roadster that my Dad bought in 1948 and stored until I got it running last year, and then I tore it apart to rebuild engine and restore it. The water pump was never removed from the car, at least not since 1948!

nkaminar · 12-19-2021, 05:34 PM

Brent in Tenn O See may have the original waterpump drawing to use to measure what you have. Most folks will grind down the waterpump casting. Consult Snyders or try a fan from another vendor.

1912Krit · 12-19-2021, 05:57 PM

Thank you all for the good advice
Enjoy the Holidays!

gdmn852 · 12-19-2021, 06:27 PM

Same problem on mine with repro parts , some grinding on water pump casting fixed it.

gdmn852 · 12-19-2021, 06:33 PM

I would hesitate on grinding on fan blade hub as it may unbalance it , being a casting rather than a stamping it is thicker than original.

J Franklin · 12-19-2021, 06:54 PM

The grinding needs to be done on the pump body. different manufacturers made pumps. I have a GM pump! The fan is a good reproduction, maybe look for a burr or flashing in the casting
bore and collar.

bobbader · 12-19-2021, 08:02 PM

The aluminum fan IS a good reproduction part. What we do have to remember that it is an aluminum casting as opposed to the stamped steel original. In order to make the correct dimensions for the fan belt and maintain the strength and structural integrity of the pulley, the inside diameter of the pulley hub is smaller than an original steel fan. Grinding the inside of the fan hub is not a good idea as it will weaken the casting. On the other hand, grinding down the nose on the water pump to allow for enough clearance will probably not hurt the integrity of the cast iron water pump housing. I understand thinking you may be somehow "defacing" what may be an original pump housing but, even though you know the history of the car, there's still a very good chance it is not the pump that was on the car when it left the factory.

Good luck. Bob Bader

GRutter · 12-19-2021, 08:30 PM

You didn't show the opposite (impeller) end of the shaft. Is the impeller pressed on or pinned on the pump shaft? Is it possible to move the impeller position?

Keith True · 12-19-2021, 08:55 PM

Chances are good that the water pump had been replaced a couple of times between 1930 and 1948.Coolant was water and alcohol,anti-freeze with lube was not in everyday use yet.Plus,greases at the time were nowhere the quality of todays.Zinc packing nuts would seize,break up and crumble,the rear bushing would wear out quick,an original untouched water pump would be a stretch.Make sure the teardrop washer is seated under the impeller,and not up on the notch of the casting.Grind the body until the fan fits and spins freely.Also,take the key out and scribble with a magic marker on the taper of the shaft.Slide the fan on,hold the impeller in one hand and spin the fan on the shaft with the other.Pull it off and check the contact area on the shaft.The ink should be pretty well scraped off.You are after 100% contact between the hub and the shaft.

jw hash · 12-19-2021, 09:01 PM

when the when was installed, did the pulley line up with the crank shaft pulley. I suspect it does not. if it does then grind the water pump housing down. if it does (not) line then the shaft is not protruding far enough out of the pump. if the impeller is pinned in place remove the pin and press the shaft forward. and re-drill it.

remember the fan needs to be all the way on the shaft and tight. or you could kiss your Radiator good by.

J Franklin · 12-19-2021, 09:41 PM

If you move the impeller, pin it or make sure it won't come loose. Radiators are expensive nowadays!

Mulletwagon · 12-19-2021, 10:38 PM

Common problem that comes up frequently. I fixed the problem with some minor grinding on the pump snout.

1912Krit · 12-20-2021, 12:23 AM

The impeller is pressed on - that would be a good solution to move the impeller a little bit to gain room on the other fan end. Thanks for all the great advice. I forgot about the importance of the pulley alignment for the belt. Will have to wait until I get the head back on the block, will post about the final outcome.
Merry Christmas and happy Holidays to all.

don3527 · 12-20-2021, 09:22 AM

You should definitely NOT grind on the I.D. of the aluminum fan. The fan needs that extra material there to properly support the edges of the belt groove. The I.D. of the aluminum fan has to be smaller to adequately support he fan belt groove edges. This is why there is some clearance issues with water pumps. Instructions are included with every aluminum fan blade that is sent out. The snout of the pump is where any grinding should be done for clearance.

katy · 12-20-2021, 11:36 AM

Did you check for proper clearance of the impeller end of the shaft in the cylinder head?

1912Krit · 12-20-2021, 12:50 PM

Will do

1912Krit · 12-20-2021, 03:58 PM

Clearance about 1/8" from end of shaft to head.

Keith True · 12-20-2021, 05:41 PM

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While it's not the answer to your problem,1/8 is too much.If you bolt the pump tp the head,with no gasket,the end of the shaft should be just touching the wear pad in the head.Not binding,but maybe hear it touch when you spin it.When installed with the gasket it should give you the .010 end play you should have.You have to be absolutely sure the teardrop washer is in it's position,not riding up on it's holding notch.If you bought a new shaft,thrust washer, and rear bushing from Snyders the fan pulley will be in the correct position.

GRutter · 12-20-2021, 09:14 PM

In a lot of cases the partition in the head is worn. Is there room to put a collar behind the
fan on the front of the pump shaft when using the aluminum repro fan blade ?

1912Krit · 12-23-2021, 12:07 PM

Thanks Keith, will check the measurements again and if I need to bring it back some, maybe I can use a teflon flat washer that is included with the spacer (which I don't need!). The partition in the head is worn a little bit, maybe 1/32nd.

Mr Rutter, if I use the collar behind the fan there is not enough room on the threaded part of the shaft for the end nut to screw in deep enough for the cotter pin hole.

Yes, these are all Snyder's parts. Another original old rusted and cracked 2 blade fan I have does fit with no problem. I think I have to play with grinding the cast housing and stealing 1/16th inch on each side of the casting.

Thanks for everyone's helpful comments.
Don

Keith True · 12-23-2021, 12:16 PM

You put the collar ahead of the packing nut.Pull the shaft toward the front,then slide the collar back so it touches the packing nut,and tighten the set screw.Use never-seize on the set screw,and just tighten it lightly.You do not have to reef on it,it is just to keep the collar from moving.I don't know what the spacer is that you are talking about,or the teflon washer.

katy · 12-23-2021, 12:29 PM

Methinks the teflon would be too soft, delrin or brass may be a better choice.

jrelliott · 12-23-2021, 12:49 PM

Just reinstalled the Aluminum fan from AZ Model A's yesterday. The older fan had started wobbling. New one fit the Stainless Steel shaft of the updated water pump and did not hit the pump casting. Do not forget to seat the fan on the shaft per instructions to hit the back of the water pump shaft on something hard to bring the fan tight against the shaft and put the washer in front of the fan before installing the castellated nut. Again as others have stated, do not modify the fan, remove material from the water pump casting, as it is beefy.

1912Krit · 12-30-2021, 07:34 PM

Thanks to all for your comments and suggestions. I ground down the pump housing casting where it was a bit oblong. I placed the spacer with Allen set screw between the fan and the casting end to stop the fan from traveling back to hot the casting where the grease fitting is. I have very slight horizontal play so I'll test it on the head as Keith mentioned.

12-19-2021, 02:47 PM	#1
1912Krit Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 26	Assembly - fan to water pump This morning I was on my merry way reassembling my water pump and 2 blade repro fan from Snyder's. When I mounted the fan on the shaft with keyway, the fan pulley dropped down over the water pump casting but when turned it scraped the casting. I removed the fan and put a spacer between the casting and fan, which gave enough room with mini clearance for the fan to turn without scraping the casting, but now the bolt holding the fan on the shaft will only catch a few threads, not low enough to get a cotter pin through. Any suggestions?

12-19-2021, 02:54 PM	#2
chrs1961815 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Spring Grove, Illinois Posts: 1,371	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump A spacer is not a correct answer to this issue. The reproduction water pumps until recently were not quite cut round so they rubbed on the pulley. You have to find the high spot and sand/grind it down until it does not rub no more. __________________ "The more things change, the more they stay the same."

12-19-2021, 03:06 PM	#3
1912Krit Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 26	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump I am using my original casting, just using repro rebuild kit and fan from Snyder's. Hate to alter the original! https://ibb.co/v4NWrkD https://ibb.co/N1992dN Last edited by 1912Krit; 12-19-2021 at 03:12 PM.

12-19-2021, 03:17 PM	#4
chrs1961815 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Spring Grove, Illinois Posts: 1,371	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump That is odd in that case. It must be the fan if it is for sure an original pump. At any rate, you have to get rid of the high spot to use that casting. __________________ "The more things change, the more they stay the same."

12-19-2021, 04:30 PM	#5
Tom Endy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern California Posts: 3,131	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump I have seen this before. I suspect some pump housings were made by different aftermarket suppliers after the Model A went out of production and they vary in outside dimensions. The people making the reproduction aluminum two-blade fans may not be taking this into consideration. The ones I have been getting in recent years from Bratton's all have fit ok and were in excellent balance. I have a balance testing rig. One option is to find where the inside of the fan is hitting the housing and grind some material off the pump housing. Tom Endy

12-19-2021, 04:40 PM	#6
1912Krit Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 26	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Thanks for the info. I think the problem is the taper in the fan. The shaft and rebuild kit fit perfect. However, the fan slides all the way back to hit the housing and only in that position will the end bolt tighten just enough to get the cotter pin through - but the fan pulley is jammed against the housing and won't turn. It must be that the repro fan is defective?

12-19-2021, 04:41 PM	#7
1912Krit Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 26	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump

12-19-2021, 04:42 PM	#8
1912Krit Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 26	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump https://ibb.co/SXLfmHk

12-19-2021, 04:45 PM	#9
1912Krit Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 26	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump The water pump is from my 1930 Ford roadster that my Dad bought in 1948 and stored until I got it running last year, and then I tore it apart to rebuild engine and restore it. The water pump was never removed from the car, at least not since 1948!

12-19-2021, 05:34 PM	#10
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,903	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump Brent in Tenn O See may have the original waterpump drawing to use to measure what you have. Most folks will grind down the waterpump casting. Consult Snyders or try a fan from another vendor. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past.

12-19-2021, 05:57 PM	#11
1912Krit Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 26	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump Thank you all for the good advice Enjoy the Holidays!

12-19-2021, 06:27 PM	#12
gdmn852 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Erie Pa Posts: 689	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump Same problem on mine with repro parts , some grinding on water pump casting fixed it.

12-19-2021, 06:33 PM	#13
gdmn852 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Erie Pa Posts: 689	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump I would hesitate on grinding on fan blade hub as it may unbalance it , being a casting rather than a stamping it is thicker than original.

12-19-2021, 06:54 PM	#14
J Franklin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon Posts: 5,966	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump The grinding needs to be done on the pump body. different manufacturers made pumps. I have a GM pump! The fan is a good reproduction, maybe look for a burr or flashing in the casting bore and collar.

12-19-2021, 08:02 PM	#15
bobbader Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Huntington, NY Posts: 271	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump The aluminum fan IS a good reproduction part. What we do have to remember that it is an aluminum casting as opposed to the stamped steel original. In order to make the correct dimensions for the fan belt and maintain the strength and structural integrity of the pulley, the inside diameter of the pulley hub is smaller than an original steel fan. Grinding the inside of the fan hub is not a good idea as it will weaken the casting. On the other hand, grinding down the nose on the water pump to allow for enough clearance will probably not hurt the integrity of the cast iron water pump housing. I understand thinking you may be somehow "defacing" what may be an original pump housing but, even though you know the history of the car, there's still a very good chance it is not the pump that was on the car when it left the factory. Good luck. Bob Bader

12-19-2021, 08:30 PM	#16
GRutter Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Mint Hill, North Carolina Posts: 386	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump You didn't show the opposite (impeller) end of the shaft. Is the impeller pressed on or pinned on the pump shaft? Is it possible to move the impeller position?

12-19-2021, 08:55 PM	#17
Keith True Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Epping N.H. Posts: 2,990	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump Chances are good that the water pump had been replaced a couple of times between 1930 and 1948.Coolant was water and alcohol,anti-freeze with lube was not in everyday use yet.Plus,greases at the time were nowhere the quality of todays.Zinc packing nuts would seize,break up and crumble,the rear bushing would wear out quick,an original untouched water pump would be a stretch.Make sure the teardrop washer is seated under the impeller,and not up on the notch of the casting.Grind the body until the fan fits and spins freely.Also,take the key out and scribble with a magic marker on the taper of the shaft.Slide the fan on,hold the impeller in one hand and spin the fan on the shaft with the other.Pull it off and check the contact area on the shaft.The ink should be pretty well scraped off.You are after 100% contact between the hub and the shaft.

12-19-2021, 09:01 PM	#18
jw hash Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Auburn Washington Posts: 2,552	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump when the when was installed, did the pulley line up with the crank shaft pulley. I suspect it does not. if it does then grind the water pump housing down. if it does (not) line then the shaft is not protruding far enough out of the pump. if the impeller is pinned in place remove the pin and press the shaft forward. and re-drill it. remember the fan needs to be all the way on the shaft and tight. or you could kiss your Radiator good by.

12-19-2021, 09:41 PM	#19
J Franklin Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon Posts: 5,966	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump If you move the impeller, pin it or make sure it won't come loose. Radiators are expensive nowadays! Last edited by J Franklin; 12-19-2021 at 09:56 PM.

12-19-2021, 10:38 PM	#20
Mulletwagon Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Florida Panhandle Posts: 585	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump Common problem that comes up frequently. I fixed the problem with some minor grinding on the pump snout.

12-20-2021, 12:23 AM	#21
1912Krit Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 26	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump The impeller is pressed on - that would be a good solution to move the impeller a little bit to gain room on the other fan end. Thanks for all the great advice. I forgot about the importance of the pulley alignment for the belt. Will have to wait until I get the head back on the block, will post about the final outcome. Merry Christmas and happy Holidays to all.

12-20-2021, 09:22 AM	#22
don3527 Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 33	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump You should definitely NOT grind on the I.D. of the aluminum fan. The fan needs that extra material there to properly support the edges of the belt groove. The I.D. of the aluminum fan has to be smaller to adequately support he fan belt groove edges. This is why there is some clearance issues with water pumps. Instructions are included with every aluminum fan blade that is sent out. The snout of the pump is where any grinding should be done for clearance.

12-20-2021, 11:36 AM	#23
katy Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Red Deer, Alberta Posts: 5,046	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump Did you check for proper clearance of the impeller end of the shaft in the cylinder head? __________________ If you don't hear a rumor by 10 AM, start one!. Got my education out behind the barn!

12-20-2021, 12:50 PM	#24
1912Krit Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 26	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump Will do

12-20-2021, 03:58 PM	#25
1912Krit Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 26	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump Clearance about 1/8" from end of shaft to head.

12-20-2021, 05:41 PM	#26
Keith True Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Epping N.H. Posts: 2,990	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) While it's not the answer to your problem,1/8 is too much.If you bolt the pump tp the head,with no gasket,the end of the shaft should be just touching the wear pad in the head.Not binding,but maybe hear it touch when you spin it.When installed with the gasket it should give you the .010 end play you should have.You have to be absolutely sure the teardrop washer is in it's position,not riding up on it's holding notch.If you bought a new shaft,thrust washer, and rear bushing from Snyders the fan pulley will be in the correct position.

12-20-2021, 09:14 PM	#27
GRutter Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Mint Hill, North Carolina Posts: 386	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump In a lot of cases the partition in the head is worn. Is there room to put a collar behind the fan on the front of the pump shaft when using the aluminum repro fan blade ?

12-23-2021, 12:07 PM	#28
1912Krit Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 26	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump Thanks Keith, will check the measurements again and if I need to bring it back some, maybe I can use a teflon flat washer that is included with the spacer (which I don't need!). The partition in the head is worn a little bit, maybe 1/32nd. Mr Rutter, if I use the collar behind the fan there is not enough room on the threaded part of the shaft for the end nut to screw in deep enough for the cotter pin hole. Yes, these are all Snyder's parts. Another original old rusted and cracked 2 blade fan I have does fit with no problem. I think I have to play with grinding the cast housing and stealing 1/16th inch on each side of the casting. Thanks for everyone's helpful comments. Don

12-23-2021, 12:16 PM	#29
Keith True Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Epping N.H. Posts: 2,990	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump You put the collar ahead of the packing nut.Pull the shaft toward the front,then slide the collar back so it touches the packing nut,and tighten the set screw.Use never-seize on the set screw,and just tighten it lightly.You do not have to reef on it,it is just to keep the collar from moving.I don't know what the spacer is that you are talking about,or the teflon washer.

12-23-2021, 12:29 PM	#30
katy Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Red Deer, Alberta Posts: 5,046	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump Methinks the teflon would be too soft, delrin or brass may be a better choice. __________________ If you don't hear a rumor by 10 AM, start one!. Got my education out behind the barn!

12-23-2021, 12:49 PM	#31
jrelliott Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Pine, AZ Posts: 794	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump Just reinstalled the Aluminum fan from AZ Model A's yesterday. The older fan had started wobbling. New one fit the Stainless Steel shaft of the updated water pump and did not hit the pump casting. Do not forget to seat the fan on the shaft per instructions to hit the back of the water pump shaft on something hard to bring the fan tight against the shaft and put the washer in front of the fan before installing the castellated nut. Again as others have stated, do not modify the fan, remove material from the water pump casting, as it is beefy.

12-30-2021, 07:34 PM	#32
1912Krit Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 26	Re: Assembly - fan to water pump Thanks to all for your comments and suggestions. I ground down the pump housing casting where it was a bit oblong. I placed the spacer with Allen set screw between the fan and the casting end to stop the fan from traveling back to hot the casting where the grease fitting is. I have very slight horizontal play so I'll test it on the head as Keith mentioned.