"57 T Bird Dual Master Cylinder Suggestion

[Charlie Stephens]

I am getting ready to go through the brakes on my '57 T Bird and would like to incorporate a dual master cylinder in the system. My first guess would be a '67 Mustang cylinder designed for all drum brakes. Are there any other units out there that I should check out when I go to the parts store and start going through catalogues?

Charlie Stephens

[Oldmics]

Heres an old but helpfull post from the H.A.M.B. about the subject.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=595162

Hope it helps.

Oldmics

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

I am getting ready to go through the brakes on my '57 T Bird and would like to incorporate a dual master cylinder in the system. My first guess would be a '67 Mustang cylinder designed for all drum brakes. Are there any other units out there that I should check out when I go to the parts store and start going through catalogues?

Charlie Stephens

Is the system manual or power assist?

If you are trying to achieve a true split system, the dual reservoir MC has to be used with a PRESSURE DIFFERENTIAL VALVE (no other valving or COMBINATION VALVE needed on drum/drum)(front and rear residual valves should be included in drum/drum MC).

Otherwise, you will not have the safety feature.

[Y-Blockhead]

Do you have a link to that article or a bigger scan. Always like reading tech articles but these to these old eyes the text looks lit gray lines...

[JeffB2]

For a lot of us in the 1952-59 Ford Group that have kept our drums this has been our "go To" article: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/g...ussionid=20141 One of the reasons is these rebuilds are usually a Bendix core(see Autzone part numbers at the bottom) the Bendix is a much better core than using many of the newer off-shore junk from India and China most of Raybestos has been off-shore for over 5-6 years,a lot of our members have used the part number posted and always good feedback,and you'll like the price about $30 without an exchange.

[JeffB2]

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We also have a video to walk you through the process: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL625B46734E48A220

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

Do you have a link to that article or a bigger scan. Always like reading tech articles but these to these old eyes the text looks lit gray lines...

No, sorry I don't. Those are two pages of FORD SHOP TIPS that explained to techs the difference(s) between single and dual reservoir master cylinders when introduced and required valving.

[V8 Bob]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Is the system manual or power assist?

If you are trying to achieve a true split system, the dual reservoir MC has to be used with a PRESSURE DIFFERENTIAL VALVE (no other valving or COMBINATION VALVE needed on drum/drum)(front and rear residual valves should be included in drum/drum MC).

Otherwise, you will not have the safety feature.

I don't know the source of your posted article, and can't read it very well because of it's size, but the differential pressure valve only turns on a dash warning light in the event of a system pressure loss or failure. It does NOT shut off any fluid flow, if that's what it states or implies.

The dual master is the safety feature, by having two separate fluid circuits and reservoirs, instead of one.

Unless you plan on a dash warring light, there is no reason to plumb in a differential pressure switch.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Is the system manual or power assist?

If you are trying to achieve a true split system, the dual reservoir MC has to be used with a PRESSURE DIFFERENTIAL VALVE (no other valving or COMBINATION VALVE needed on drum/drum)(front and rear residual valves should be included in drum/drum MC).

Otherwise, you will not have the safety feature.

Originally Posted by V8 Bob

I don't know the source of your posted article, and can't read it very well because of it's size, but the differential pressure valve only turns on a dash warning light in the event of a system pressure loss or failure. It does NOT shut off any fluid flow, if that's what it states or implies.

The dual master is the safety feature, by having two separate fluid circuits and reservoirs, instead of one.

Unless you plan on a dash warring light, there is no reason to plumb in a differential pressure switch.

Well, I beg to differ. The source is FOMOCO and explained to techs at the time (introduction) how the new system was designed and operates. The actual valve has a shuttle pin that closes the failed circuit, enabling hydraulic pressure to be maintained on the still operating circuit.

Without the valve, you merely have a two reservoir system which has no safety feature as the dual reservoirs are connected. It is the valving that creates the safety feature. The warning lamp is an option.

Now this information is readily available on the net and in tech manuals. I found it amusing the 53 owner installing a dual master cylinder and thinking he now has a true split system. If one circuit fails, both fail.

[V8 Bob]

KULTULZ,

I worked for a very large brake supplier that manufactured differential pressure switches, dual masters, etc., so I am familiar with their purpose and how they work. Simply put, the tech article is wrong about DP switches, but this is not the first time miss information has been presented about them. The spring-loaded internal piston completes an electrical circuit, period.

Your knowledge of how a dual master cylinder functions is not correct either. The reservoirs are in fact separate, as are the primary and secondary systems. These are facts, not opinions, whether you beleive them or not.

Dual/split/tandem hydraulic brake systems have been around for over 45 years, and it's sad that so many still do not fully understand them.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by V8 Bob

KULTULZ,

I worked for a very large brake supplier that manufactured differential pressure switches, dual masters, etc., so I am familiar with their purpose and how they work. Simply put, the tech article is wrong about DP switches, but this is not the first time miss information has been presented about them. The spring-loaded internal piston completes an electrical circuit, period.

Your knowledge of how a dual master cylinder functions is not correct either. The reservoirs are in fact separate, as are the primary and secondary systems. These are facts, not opinions, whether you beleive them or not.

Dual/split/tandem hydraulic brake systems have been around for over 45 years, and it's sad that so many still do not fully understand them.

Bob,

The above is in your opinion only, correct?

I refuse to start a flaming war here. The shuttle pins completes an electrical circuit how? The lamp's purpose is what? The MC dual reservoirs are not connected in any way?

Your employment, was it tech or sales? The tech I mention is readily available from many sources, including ASE.

I merely made a statement. It is up to the reader to either accept, discount or investigate further. To think just a dual reservoir MC swap is going to give one a true split hydraulic system in ludicrous. One could accomplish the same with an earlier single reservoir dual outlet MC.

How extensive is your actual tech background?

And I have seen very little tech material sourced by FORD that was either incorrect and/or misleading. Let's keep it civil and just agree to disagree.

[V8 Bob]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Bob,

The above is in your opinion only, correct?

As I already stated, FACT, not opinion.

I refuse to start a flaming war here. The shuttle pins completes an electrical circuit how? The lamp's purpose is what? The MC dual reservoirs are not connected in any way?

The shuttle piston normally completes the dash warning light ground circuit. The light warns of a brake pressure differential between the primary and secondary systems, usually around 400 psi.

Your employment, was it tech or sales? The tech I mention is readily available from many sources, including ASE.

I was a test driver/tech, performing hands on vehicle brake building/testing/data reduction. What was yours?

I merely made a statement. It is up to the reader to either accept, discount or investigate further. To think just a dual reservoir MC swap is going to give one a true split hydraulic system in ludicrous. One could accomplish the same with an earlier single reservoir dual outlet MC.


Your "thinking" above is total nonsense.


How extensive is your actual tech background?

About 35 years. What's yours?

And I have seen very little tech material sourced by FORD that was either incorrect and/or misleading. Let's keep it civil and just agree to disagree.

Many "tech" articles, some by well-known suppliers of kits and components, are totally wrong when it comes to dual masters, residual valves, and the purpose and/or operation of metering and proportioning valves.
If you really wanted learn (the truth) about brake system design and operation, you can. But you're not going to accomplish anything by simply "agreeing to disagree".

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by V8 Bob

Many "tech" articles, some by well-known suppliers of kits and components, are totally wrong when it comes to dual masters, residual valves, and the purpose and/or operation of metering and proportioning valves.

You've noticed that also? There are also many differing descriptive terms used adding confusing to the subject.

If you really wanted learn (the truth) about brake system design and operation, you can. But you're not going to accomplish anything by simply "agreeing to disagree".

Bob, all inspect intended, I know about hydraulic braking systems. I also can differentiate between information and disinformation.

You may not agree, but then I do not agree with you.

Your "thinking" above is total nonsense.

As is yours to me....

Now give it a rest. You are not helping the readers here. You have already added insult to a supposedly calm discussion.

[JeffB2]

Now that you opened "this can of worms" could you explain why Ford went to a dual master in the early Mustangs with drum brakes in the first place if there was nothing to be gained from it? And why would using that same master in an earlier Ford be of no use as you stated above.

[V8 Bob]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

I am getting ready to go through the brakes on my '57 T Bird and would like to incorporate a dual master cylinder in the system. My first guess would be a '67 Mustang cylinder designed for all drum brakes. Are there any other units out there that I should check out when I go to the parts store and start going through catalogues?

Charlie Stephens

Charlie,
I apologize for "hijacking" your post, as I should have tried to answer your question first. My bad.
One of my friends has a '56 Bird, and he also wanted to upgrade to a dual master. I didn't realize how cramped the area is around the master because of the LH exhaust manifold and battery, and that a simple swap to a dual is not that easy.
From what I've learned and seen, there are two main choices. Either move the master cylinder forward of the battery (with a long push rod and special bracket), or move the battery to the trunk to allow a normal master or booster combo on the firewall. I vote to move/relocate the battery for two reasons. One, the "stock" '55-'57 Bird batteries are a special size and can be expensive; Two, I like the master/booster to be mounted on the firewall vs. near the radiator, BTMO.
A '67-up Mustang or several other Ford drum/drum masters are a good choice. Just make sure they have the needed residuals, or add external 10# valves. If the push rod will not be retained, choose a power brake master, as most will have a deeper push rod counter bore, to ensure the rod will not fall out.
Check some of the early Bird suppliers for their kits and suggestions.