Generator/ regulator "Woes"

[solidaxle]

I need some fresh ideas, been struggling with my charging system and thought I had it licked, but last night it quite again. I keep burning up regulators within a half a hour run time. The car had a modern looking, one wire hook up, 6 volt generator. Wanting a more traditional look, I changed it to the older style. Here's what I have.

Generator- 8BA-D, 35 amps , 6 volts, positive ground, 2 brush.
Firewall mounted 6 volt regulator, positive ground.
Flathead 8ba motor.
No accessories, incandescent head lights.
Brand new Optima battery, it replaced the old optima that was at least 13 years old.



I checked the wiring, it's all correct. Field to field, Arm to arm, ground to + frame, battery to -

Polarized by lifting the field wire off the terminal and flashing the Bat terminal.

Generator and regulator was checked out by a re-builder. He installed new brush springs, sold me a new regulator and bench tested. I installed both, polarized again. charged for a while then quite.

Back to the rebuilder, he tested the generator, which was fine. Regulator was shot ( 2nd ) one. He said it was probably the battery being so old and maybe had a bad cell.
Replaced the battery with a new Optima.

Reinstalled Gen and new regulator, was charging, I momentarily disconnected the battery and the car kept running and quickly turned the battery disconnect back on. Ran it around for 15 minutes and tried the battery disconnect again, the car died. It was getting late so I pulled the car in the garage and didn't get to check any thing, but I suspect the regulator went again.

Any ideas??

Some quirks I noticed, car that may not be related. Motor is missing at high rpms which could be lack of voltage to the coil. I installed a Yankee 960 turn signal switch and the pilot lamp stays dimmely on. Probably the flasher.

On the plus side I'm getting real quick at changing the generator and adjusting the belts, but it's getting a little costly.

[flatford8]

If the pilot light stays on it sounds like a ground issue with that. Not sure about your regulator.

[FlatheadTed]

Try a 3 brush set up with fun projects regulator

[Bruce Lancaster]

Make up 2 test wires and jump from G on generator to the baseplate of the regulator, then from there back to battery ground cable and see if anything improves. If you have poor ground the system tries to crank out more juice to compensate...adding some direct wire here is a quick and easy test.

[solidaxle]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster

Make up 2 test wires and jump from G on generator to the baseplate of the regulator, then from there back to battery ground cable and see if anything improves. If you have poor ground the system tries to crank out more juice to compensate...adding some direct wire here is a quick and easy test.

I'll give that a try and report back.

[jimTN]

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In my experience, 90% of gens with voltage reg that have problems are due to a bad ground situation, be it engine, regulator, battery terminals or battery ground.

[koates]

Hi there, The above tests for bad earths are a must do. What is the car ? What is the exact problem with the two regulators. Burned and pitted voltage or current control contacts or what ? Another cause of burned contacts is excessive field current draw (amps) in the generator. The generator may work OK but if the field current draw is higher than 3 amps or so it will overload the contacts in the v/reg. Field coils could have internal shorts in side the windings or partly shorted to ground under pole shoes,which cause the increase in current draw . Connect an accurate test ammeter in series with the field terminal on the gen to test this. I am always suspect of the quality of newer repro voltage regs. The best regs are the genuine ford ones. The wartime versions are very good and not hard to find NOS. Also check that the newer repro regs are suitable for positive ground. Because of different materials in the reg contacts some will only work either neg or pos to ground. Connect them the wrong way and the contacts have a short life. Regards, Kevin.

[*BigDaddy*]

I am not being a smart buttt,

but

An optima is a strange animal. Before putting into operation, no matter what anyone, even optima tells you:

Charge the battery slowly with a c-tek type charger. The battery has to be fully charged before you start. The optima is a very slowly charging battery and your gene is probably trying to charge too long. They are are rough even on normal 12v one wire large alt type systems. You need to freshen the ground too. Take a piece of sandpaper and ground 1. batt to frame 2. frame to body and 3. Block to frame, all with a good (new) strap type cables

[Kurt in NJ]

You have to think of the ground path, it is neglected on many restorations in the name of pretty for other things,, when you bolt that ground strap the the body ---the electric has to go through the side of the terminal to the side of the washer---to the other side of the washer, then to the side of the nut--from there it goes to the threads ---something as simple as a corroded lock washer is all it takes to have a bad ground

When the car was new the new sharp edged lock washer cut thropugh the paint, usually 1 layer of paint, during restoration many layers of paint and primer were used, and many times the old lockwashers and nuts are painted and reused

Originally the studs on the generator were copper plated, now you are lucky if the threads are not rusty

When I sandblast a frame and ready it for paint I will tin the ground points so they won't rust during my ownership, I have been accused of having 12V because the starter spins fast.

I got 16 years out of my Optima before it died, never used any fancy charger on it, once I left the ignition on ---stone dead for 3 months, put my old stupid 6V only charger on it for 10 min and hand cranked, the gen at 15 amp rate finished it off by driving, I feel that the unregulated 15 amp rate has been good for the optima --although I havn't replaced it, now I have an AGM battery from a Mercedes (well only 1/2 of it, I cut a 12v battery in 1/2)

here is alink to Delco generator troubles, most are the same as Ford, there are other links inside this article that explain pos--neg ground differences ---just remember delco usually is externally grounded field, Ford is internally grounded field usually
http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/sp...Some_Education
yes, it is also about airplanes, but charging is charging ---there are many links in this article, some very good

this link has alot in it, even how to make many modifications---but look through and you can learn alot -- http://www.scribd.com/doc/3093121/LeJay-Manual ---you would never think that there were so many uses for model T generators and starters

[*BigDaddy*]

Just telling the OP what has worked for me. I usually am overabundant with ground straps. One on the gen and regulator too

[solidaxle]

Originally Posted by koates

Hi there, The above tests for bad earths are a must do. What is the car ? What is the exact problem with the two regulators. Burned and pitted voltage or current control contacts or what ? Another cause of burned contacts is excessive field current draw (amps) in the generator. The generator may work OK but if the field current draw is higher than 3 amps or so it will overload the contacts in the v/reg. Field coils could have internal shorts in side the windings or partly shorted to ground under pole shoes,which cause the increase in current draw . Connect an accurate test ammeter in series with the field terminal on the gen to test this. I am always suspect of the quality of newer repro voltage regs. The best regs are the genuine ford ones. The wartime versions are very good and not hard to find NOS. Also check that the newer repro regs are suitable for positive ground. Because of different materials in the reg contacts some will only work either neg or pos to ground. Connect them the wrong way and the contacts have a short life. Regards, Kevin.

There's a lot of truth to what your saying about the older regulators are better quality. I had a Ford FAD-10505-A and visually compared it to a newer present day replacement one. There is no comparison, the older regulator is by far better made then the new one.

[solidaxle]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster

Make up 2 test wires and jump from G on generator to the baseplate of the regulator, then from there back to battery ground cable and see if anything improves. If you have poor ground the system tries to crank out more juice to compensate...adding some direct wire here is a quick and easy test.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head as others have also pointed out the need for good ground path. I did check continuity with my ohm meter when I first installed the regulator to the fire wall and had a good reading. Even though continuity can be made, I suspect the path was not large enough to handle the current required. I would compare it to using a too small of a wire and increasing the resistance.

I made the jumpers up last night and went right back to the battery ground with the connection. Installed the new regulator and ran it for 12 miles, so far things are working properly. I turned off the cut off switch and the motor keep running. I want to run during the day time a little more before I take it on a longer trip.
Update to follow

[Bruce Lancaster]

The Laws of Physics:
If the problem is incomprehensible or seems to show signs of the paranormal, it will eventually prove to be the ground.
All old cars have ground problems...the original ones from rust and dirt along the path, the restored ones from too much paint, new gaskets, and fresh rubber.
All cars are deigned for cost reasons with waaaay to much faith in the grounding power of 3,000 pieces of painted tin loosely screwed together...

History...Ford designed that system in '37-8 with the ground handled through engine, discovered the problem, and added a direct ground wire in about 1940.
In 1949, an accountant looked under the hood..."Hey! That wire there! We can save two cents per hundred cars if we leave that out!!"
The aftermarket leapt into action, and deleted the ground terminal on all Ford regulators henceforth...

[jdl]

Here is how the generator/regulator gets it ground on 51 Ford cars..
wire #7B from firewall to under the voltage reg base then #5BR from reg base to gen. grnd. #6B from reg. base to headlight block. (click to enlarge)

[solidaxle]

Things are looking good,I put some miles on her. It was the inadequate ground.Thanks everyone for the help.

[4dFord/SC]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster

The Laws of Physics:
If the problem is incomprehensible or seems to show signs of the paranormal, it will eventually prove to be the ground.

I'm copying that into my notebook next to the Smoke Theory of Electricity.