12-04-2021, 09:26 AM | #1 |
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Rear axle nut
WhT size is the (and thread) is the nut that holds the rear hub on.
Thanks Dick |
12-04-2021, 10:31 AM | #2 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
5/8 -18 suffix S18 case hardened -from the ford parts book
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12-04-2021, 12:45 PM | #3 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
Don't forget to use the hardened washer.
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12-04-2021, 12:50 PM | #4 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
In case you are trying to find one in a local hardware store DON'T DO IT. They are a special very hard nut and need to be replaced with one from a reputable supplies of Ford parts.
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12-04-2021, 01:04 PM | #5 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
I bought "hardened" washers for the rear axles from one of the major Model A part suppliers and they weren't hard at all. I went to the local Caterpillar dealer and got good hardened washers.
BTW, don't forget the seal that goes in the end of the hub before putting the washer and nut on.
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12-04-2021, 04:04 PM | #6 | |
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Re: Rear axle nut
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Quote:
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12-05-2021, 09:57 AM | #7 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
Where exactly is the requirement specified for the A-22371 5/8 Plain Washer to be hardened? I find that the A-21892 5/8-18 Castle Nut is specified as hardened, but not the A-22371 Washer.
By the way, I find from experience that the threads on the rear axle shafts are relatively ductile in comparison to the nut. It makes sense for the nut to be hardened because it determines the strength of the brake drum retention.
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12-05-2021, 05:52 PM | #8 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
If a hardened steel washer can't easily be found, can't a regular steel washer be case hardened by heating it cherry read with a propane or acetylene torch and dipping it in used motor oil (or any oil including vegetable oil)?
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12-05-2021, 07:08 PM | #9 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
Wrndln, I think many repeated heating and dippings might be needed to get any usable case thickness.
I am interested to hear from someone who has tried this. I have always used Casenit cyanide powder, or packed in charcoal and put in a furnace for many hours to get a decent case depth. SAJ jn NZ |
12-05-2021, 09:00 PM | #10 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
I don't think "hardened" is what we need at all. High tensile is more like it. The objective is to prevent it distorting as the nut is tightened. Case hardening will help but not nearly as much as a washer made from high tensile material. JMHO.
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12-05-2021, 11:35 PM | #11 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
I'm with Synchro909 on this - where there is torsion, tensile strength is the key.
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12-06-2021, 08:14 AM | #12 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
There is no requirement for a hardened washer that I can find in any Ford literature!
In my opinion, hardening causes embrittlement and that is undesirable in a part subjected to bending as is the washer in question. Stop over-torquing the axle nut if the washer is being damaged.
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12-06-2021, 10:39 AM | #13 | |
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Re: Rear axle nut
Quote:
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12-06-2021, 11:13 AM | #14 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
A soft washer will deform and overly squash the fiber washer when the nut is tightened, that's why a hard washer is preferred. Just because Ford didn't specify a hardened washer doesn't mean it's not a good idea.
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12-06-2021, 03:46 PM | #15 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
Thanks I have a new nut and the washer just needed a die for the threads on axle
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12-06-2021, 06:02 PM | #16 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
Do not use a die on the threads, it will remove metal! Use a thread chaser, it is designed to reform the threads without cutting away any material.
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12-08-2021, 04:58 AM | #17 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
OK found a thread file, I'll try that
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12-08-2021, 09:04 AM | #18 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
McMaster Carr has a number of different washers and nuts. I bought some hardened nuts to use when using the hub puller so that I would not distort the end of the axle. I modified one by using a Dremel cutoff wheel to cut a slot along the length of the nut and used this as a thread chaser. If the threads are in really bad shape, perhaps being distorted by using a hub puller without a backup nut, then a hardened nut can be cut in half with the Dremel and clamped on the threads and then screwed off to restore the threads. If the threads are not in very bad shape then the castle side of the standard nut can be screwed on first to restore the threads.
As a reminder, check the torque on the nuts every year or so depending on how much you drive your car.
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12-09-2021, 05:56 AM | #19 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
This set https://www.toolsid.com/lang-tools/2...-mpn-2581.html also has a die to chase the threads.
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03-19-2023, 11:29 AM | #20 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
How does the cotter key go on the axle steeped nut ? Should the legs be crimped over the axle end or in to the steps?
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03-19-2023, 05:11 PM | #21 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
One leg is bent up and over the facing of the nut, the second leg is just tapped back slightly, towards the bearing.
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03-19-2023, 05:47 PM | #22 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
The rear axle thread/nut I believe to be one of those "unusual" threads. Today the fit/tolerance would be a matter of "thread class" - although I don't think Ford had brought it to that level of standardization.
This akin to the threads/bolts in the "punkin" which are just a "skosh" (technical term) larger than the USS - and for which a lot of people have to use "sealant" My experience with "recutting" axle/hub thread is that a "fair" amount of material is removed by the die in the recutting. Enough to make me concerned for "thread fit" and wonder if I'm not making the thread more subject to tension failure? Thread files MAY help reduce this. So maybe might using a tap & die in the "Little Giant" pattern - which can be adjusted for oversize nicely. BUT - to solve my problem henceforth I bought a "thread restorer" which is made to the purpose, and "restores" the threads by compression. Shown below. This one is on Ebay, so the pix won't last, but the tool is available "Buy it Now" at a good buy. Some have opined that the axle/hub threads were originally "rolled." This is a distinct possibility. IMHO, this is the proper tool for a rear axle thread restoration. Joe K
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03-19-2023, 08:17 PM | #23 | |
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Re: Rear axle nut
Quote:
The British system was very similar (BSW and BSF) and the metric system also has a coarse and fine thread standard.
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03-20-2023, 02:44 PM | #24 | ||
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Re: Rear axle nut
Quote:
What you say is doubtless true, but add in the additional variable of "tolerance." Fastenal in their most excellent site on thread design addresses this. https://www.fastenal.com/content/fed...s%20Design.pdf I'll take a couple of paragraphs which show the effect. This does not cut/paste well. Quote:
And while UNF/UNC were used for the vast majority of Ford fasteners, it is not impossible for Ford to have "deviated." After all, Ford probably produced (or at least tightly controlled) fasteners for critical use. As I say, recutting an axle thread with a non-adjustable die results in "substantial" chip production. This being a "typical" TRW or better quality die. I imagine made to produce the class 2 fit. I won't be doing that again. Any more than I will use commercial, even stainless steel cap screws on the punkin. Permatex is best applied knowing the seal is probably already "tight." Joe K
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03-20-2023, 05:55 PM | #25 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
Joe, I was responding to your comment that they were "unusual" threads
"The rear axle thread/nut I believe to be one of those "unusual" threads. " I make no comment class of thread but find your comments about cutting the 9/16 thread quite reasonable. Mine were done on a lathe (not with a die) by a very experienced operator. The fit with the nut is quite good. PS I am not trying to be confrontational or augmentative here.
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03-20-2023, 11:33 PM | #26 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
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- 1 A , common threaded rod ( I knew that this was pretty loose !) - 2 A, common hardware fasteners - 3 A, think "Allen" cap screws and the like Joe B |
03-21-2023, 12:48 AM | #27 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
Threads come in different "classes" or tolerances.
For talking here we will talk about common threads used in automotive applications, NOT close tolerance types. Standard die nuts are made to cut standard size threads. These are the die nuts found in hardware and tool supply stores. They are guaranteed to cut standard size threads, NOT undersize and NOT oversize. A thread chaser will NOT cut a standard thread, it will be oversize for a die and undersize for a tap. These will normally clean some rust and dirt out of threads, BUT, they will NOT restore a thread to new clean metal dimensions. Another thing to remember is a dirty thread CAN NOT be torqued to an accurate value. If the thread has been damaged, it will cut SOME of the high spots off but IT WILL NOT RESTORE THE LOW SPOTS to original. A die nut is required to restore the high spots to proper dimensions. Nothing can be done for the low spots. This may or may not leave the thread capable of reaching the designed torque for the application. Usually if metal has been lost from a thread for any reason, it will not carry the load it was designed for. This is especially true in the case of old Ford axle threads. What came from the factory worked fine. There are MANY improvements that have been developed over the years by the racing industry to use both for street and racing. I will venture to say ALL of the pertinent info has been posted on this and the HAMB forums several times along with all of the old wive's tales and bad info. |
03-21-2023, 08:54 AM | #28 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
I only go about 90-100ft.lbs. 120 seems too much for 90 year old threads.
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03-21-2023, 12:37 PM | #29 | ||
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Re: Rear axle nut
Quote:
And Ford MAY HAVE pushed the quality boundary, as they did many times even in other areas such as Johannson Blocks and dimensionalities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_block Quote:
Joe K
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03-22-2023, 10:04 AM | #30 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
Yes and even 85-95 may be enough depending on hub and axle key condition, torque wrench used for small '# increments approaching the end setting. Supposedly factory didn't use a torque wrench until later years , and some mechanics advise to go back and recheck after driving for some mileage like for wheel studs..
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03-22-2023, 05:56 PM | #31 | |
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Re: Rear axle nut
Quote:
As for the axle nuts, I fitted the rear hubs on one of my cars recently and checked them after only about 8-10 miles. I got enough out of them that I am pleased that I did. We have a longer drive coming up soon so I will make sure I drive it some more and check them again before we go. After checking yet again on our return, I think I will be able to call them good. We'll see.
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03-22-2023, 07:19 PM | #32 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
Interesting subject, fasteners.
I was looking thru the 1919 Machinery Handbook Not sure when the S.A.E specs came into existence except to mention it replaced the A.L.A.M specs of April 1906 (association of licensed automobile manufacturers) So, Class fits did not exist in the SAE specifications. Specs given as the body of the fastener to be .001 less than the nominal diameter, nor smaller than .002 smaller than nominal dia. That is not the case today at all. The nut to be .002 - .003 larger than nominal dia (major dia of thread) materials for screws and plain nuts steel min 100,000 psi tensile with elastic limit of 60,000 psi castle nuts to be case hardened. John
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05-21-2023, 04:15 PM | #33 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
Bruce, the linked page shows "out of stock". Looks good though.
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05-21-2023, 11:06 PM | #34 |
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Re: Rear axle nut
If you are interested in the Lang Thread Chaser set you can get it from Amazon.com https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Lang+Tool...f=nb_sb_noss_1
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