Serial number

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by Timothy Kelly

On page 33, the second paragraph states: "Another important item about the frame is the engine number. When the engine was dropped on the frame at the assembly line, the engine number was stamped on the frame, on the top side of the left frame rail, just behind the number one body bolt. This number provides a positive means of identifying the original engine that should be with the car and the time of production."

Whether or not Mr. DeAngelis information is correct or not is unknown to me. It does, however, fit with the examples I have seen while collecting Model A Fords over the past 40 years.

Now, that is exactly what I was looking for. I won't ever enter a car in any kind of judging BUT, I do provide engines for people who do so, I need to be able to determine how to go about the numbering system in it's entirety. I also don't want to spout off something that I can't reference in print. Keeps me from looking any more like a fool than I already do.

[James Rogers]

BTW, in NC when the title to any car is transferred, the old title is surrendered to the DMV so, I could never have kept even the title from the second owner. I did see it when I signed it and surrendered it and the transfer date to the second owner was Jan. 1963. Funny story about that date but too long to type.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian

OK......the engine doesn't match the car date/month/year,...better yet, say the
engine is 2 weeks after the frame date and in the next month. You are also working
on parts for the car that is up to 2 months before the frame number. ( boy, am I
getting a headache )
When you goto show the car, with a "variance" stating it is not a number matching
car....do you loose points? How the HELL does this/that work?

One last question, are all fine point cars number matching?

Dudley....working on my taxes...

"Numbers matching" by the truest sense is not VIN vs. Engine matching, ...but instead the date codes on all the components on the entire vehicle match the VIN/engine.

Again, for the purpose of MARC/MAFCA adjudication, the judges do not care if the engine number matches the frame number, --nor do they care if the engine number matches the number on the title. The only thing the Area 1 judges care about is whether that number matches the timeline the owner is classifying his vehicle's build-date as.

A 'Variance' is the same thing as an "exception" or a Free Pass. If someone is granted a variance for something, then the Judge is instructed to accept what the J/S Committee is allowing for this instance without any deduction for not following what is written in the Judging Standards.



Playing Devil's Advocate with George's book, how do you know what he has listed is actually factual? As we all know, this book has many errors and mistated facts that have been proven otherwise since the book was last published. In his defense, that information was thought to be gospel however in additional research some things have been found to be different than initially thought. This info has come from studying Engineering Releases, Prints, and logs. Therefore, how do we know for a fact that his statement about how/when the frame was stamped is actually factual?? Where do we suppose he garnered that info??

[James Rogers]

I guess when you get right down to it, he could be as wrong or as right as any of us without factual documentation from the original manifests. It does give some credence to the theory that it happened. Now to find out how he arrived at this conclusion. I hate to get something like this on my mind. It will worry me till I find out for sure.

[Jim Mason]

the only documentation I've seen (doesn't mean there isn't any, it means the only documentation I've seen) is from the American Machinist magazine of 1928, step 27. "Hang engine assembly on overhead conveyor, place in chassis and prop in place. Stamp motor number on left side member near clutch pedal". The 3 months is for judging only. It was 'invented' to allow for the large number of engines in float. The attached photo is the long beach plant in 1931. All of the engines were assembled in Detroit, stamped with a number then shipped to different assembly plants. The engines were not used in any order, and so could be (for judging) up to 3 months earlier than the vehicle assembly date. Remember you are building to a date for fine point judging. All the parts will be restored to original specs, but the car won't be 'restored', but built to a date. Restoration is bringing the car back to original condition by restoring what was there. Preservation is holding the car in time as found. These are my definitions. Fine point=built to a standard for a particular date. Preservation is maintaining the car as is. Restoration is built to as new, but not necessarily to standard.

[Deluxe Delivery Don]

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Originally Posted by MBI Houston

Where is Pluck when you need him?

He is off on his New Venture .Details to come soon. I know if he was on this Thread he would say check out my Web Site.

[theHIGHLANDER]

Since I've rekindled my love affair with Model As, maybe it's time to visit the archives/library at "The Henry Ford" museum. So many things were taken for granted or just plain ignored for so long, and these days collectors want to know it all. Clearly there's new questions to ask, and even though the answers may or may not effect judging they still give us insights as to the "A to Zs" of Model A production. I think we do better work knowing more about a car than it's fuctions and colors.

[1931 flamingo]

A new question while we're on this subject. Any one wonder/know why the frame S/N was placed UNDER the body and not 6" in front where only the fender would cover it??

Paul in CT

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by theHIGHLANDER

Since I've rekindled my love affair with Model As, maybe it's time to visit the archives/library at "The Henry Ford" museum. So many things were taken for granted or just plain ignored for so long, and these days collectors want to know it all. Clearly there's new questions to ask, and even though the answers may or may not effect judging they still give us insights as to the "A to Zs" of Model A production. I think we do better work knowing more about a car than it's fuctions and colors.

Many of us already frequent the Bensen Research Center doing just what you are suggesting. I suspect that hardly a week goes by that someone affiliated with MARC/MAFCA judging is not there studying. Your help doing this with many of us would likely be welcome. Especially for those who live much further away where you could be their eyes to help research.

[Bruce Lancaster]

So...where/how would stamping location and requirement be documented?? I don't thingk the parts drawings themselves would contain this, as serial had nothing to do with the manufature of the frame or rail and there was not any special pad or feature of frame at the number location.
And of course it wouldn't be in a change letter if it was done like this from car number
one on...how were assembly procedures documented, what document did all those change letters change?
A thought on the hidden location: Ford USA started stamping frames in late 1925 on Model T's. The location chosen for T's was about the same as on A's...but made more sense, because it was visible with only the wooden part of floorboard removed.
Perhaps that procedure simply stayed in place because there was no change order issued in the transition?? Some edict on where to stamp issued in December 1925 just stayed in force by simple inertia?