Weekend Warrior defeated

[TommyCoupe]

It's only noon here in CT, and already I've had my @$$ kicked by this car.

I've been having electrical/generator problems, which I though I had licked. Went out this morning and polarized the generator and started the car up. The ammeter may have moved a small amount when it was running, but if it did move, it was an insignificant amount. Revved the engine for a while and still no major movement.
Turned it off and measured battery voltage. 6.14v not running.
Started the engine again and voltage at the battery was 6.08.
The voltage at the cutout was 6.14. So my guess is that the generator isn't working.

Just before I shut the engine down again, I notice a lot of steam coming out of the overflow tube. So great, now I'm thinking I have a timing problem or carb problem, or who the h#!! knows. Probably someone on the barn would know, but today I'm just too stupid.

So, OK. Let's forget about that and move onto putting some glass in the car. I started on the passenger side quarter window. Just as put the last screw in, I hear a little snap sound, and a nice crack runs right down the middle of it.
Another lesson learned the hard way. I should start a thread listing all the things I have learned the hard way, so other people can learn from my stupidness. (Is that word ?)

So, OK. Let's just put it back in the garage. Got in the car, stepped on the starter button and the starter barely turns. I checked the battery voltage, and guess what. It was 6.14V.

Then after I struggle to push it into the garage (uphill by myself) it starts drizzling outside. The car kind of needed a cleaning anyway, but it just made it harder to get into the garage.
Finally got in the garage, and put the battery charger on it. Battery level looks low, but there aren't any meters on it or anything so I don't know what the real voltage is. It just says "charging 25%".

I'm going to go out and put the old 1970's SEARS charger on it and see what happens. I believe that one has an ammeter on it.

So, for today I am defeated. I won't get far on this car working just the weekends when things like this happens.

Ever have one of these days ?

Tommy-

[William Kelchner]

Hang in there it gets worse. :) I spent the last several weeks trying to hook up the emergency brake to work on my car, it has hydraulic brakes and the emerg brake never worked, in fact it was not even connected. I finally won and I feel your pain. In my case I believe the score is 3 to 16 in favor of the car.... Cheers

[700rpm]

Was that window plate glass?

[TommyCoupe]

No. Safety glass.

So I dug through my pile of old stuff and found the original piece of glass. Of course it has 50 year old primer on it, and was pitted a bit, but I cleaned it up and put it in. It looks OK for now, but I'll have to replace it before the interior goes in.

[mshmodela]

Tommy,

Sorry to read of your troubles... I'd take a few days break get some good sleep and think about what might be causeing your issues.. When my ass is kicked by a problem, I have to take a break or walk... You'll figure this out...

Best wishes.

[Mike V. Florida]

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Originally Posted by TommyCoupe

I've been having electrical/generator problems, which I though I had licked. Went out this morning and polarized the generator and started the car up. The ammeter may have moved a small amount when it was running, but if it did move, it was an insignificant amount. Revved the engine for a while and still no major movement.
Turned it off and measured battery voltage. 6.14v not running.
Started the engine again and voltage at the battery was 6.08.
The voltage at the cutout was 6.14. So my guess is that the generator isn't working.

Let's see;

Car off the voltage at the battery is 6.14.
Car running 6.08 at the battery.
Where are to measuring on the cut out? The output where the wires to the car are attached, has one wire that goes through the ammeter back to the battery so it should read the battery voltage. The other side of the cutout is the generator output. When the car is running if the voltage at this point is above the battery voltage the cut out is not closing.

I hope I have not confused you more.

Car off, generator side of cut out should read nothing. Output of cut out where the wires attach should read the same as the the reading of the battery.

Car on and at a fast idle, Generator side of cut out should
be above the battery voltage.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Mamma said there will be DAYS LIKE THAT, sorry you had one.
Problems always seem WORSE when it's your OWN car! It's like, MY car isn't supposed to BREAK! I just haul extra parts for OTHER people.
Bill W.

[cradlescyth]

Welcom to the club !!!

[TommyCoupe]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Let's see;

Car off the voltage at the battery is 6.14.
Car running 6.08 at the battery.
Where are to measuring on the cut out? The output where the wires to the car are attached, has one wire that goes through the ammeter back to the battery so it should read the battery voltage. The other side of the cutout is the generator output. When the car is running if the voltage at this point is above the battery voltage the cut out is not closing.

I hope I have not confused you more.

Car off, generator side of cut out should read nothing. Output of cut out where the wires attach should read the same as the the reading of the battery.

Car on and at a fast idle, Generator side of cut out should
be above the battery voltage.

Charged the battery, and it now reads 6.22V with the engine off.
With the engine on, the battery is about the same. The cutout (where the yellow wire attaches) is the same as the battery. The opposite side of the cutout(where the post comes out of the gen) bounces around, but reads around 35V.
Is that right ???

Before doing all this, I pulled the generator out of the car and took the cutout off of it. Then with jumper cables I connected it to the battery, and the motor spun slowly. Then cleaned all the connections and put it back in.

Am I just wasting my time. In a few days I could have a brand new 6V Positive ground alternator delivered to my doorstep, and I think these troubles would go away.

Tommy-

[C26Pinelake]

Should have had your wife push the car and you play flagman and direct het! Wayne

[Tom Wesenberg]

Looks like you have a bad cutout.
As soon as the engine starts jump across the two cutout terminals and read the voltage at fast idle.

[Willie Krash]

Zen master says Model A will teach you patience and tolerance.
You are not alone.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by TommyCoupe

Am I just wasting my time. In a few days I could have a brand new 6V Positive ground alternator delivered to my doorstep, and I think these troubles would go away.

Tommy-

Learning is never a waste of time. If you want to get rid of that "clunker" I'll buy it.

[TommyCoupe]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Looks like you have a bad cutout.
As soon as the engine starts jump across the two cutout terminals and read the voltage at fast idle.

It's a brand new Bert's cutout.

Tommy-

[tbirdtbird]

new or one he rebuilt

[Mitch//pa]

Diode or contact style

[Tom Wesenberg]

"Charged the battery, and it now reads 6.22V with the engine off.
With the engine on, the battery is about the same. The cutout (where the yellow wire attaches) is the same as the battery. The opposite side of the cutout(where the post comes out of the gen) bounces around, but reads around 35V.
Is that right ???"

Are you using a digital meter? If so, ditch it and use an analog meter, so you can get an accurate reading.

If the voltage is truly that high it indicates the current isn't being passed to the output side of the cutout. Start the engine and jump across the cutout terminals and see what the voltage reads.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by TommyCoupe

It's a brand new Bert's cutout.

Tommy-

Call him.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Any chance the cutout is installed backwards?

Is your battery + ground?

[TommyCoupe]

Yes. The battery is positive ground.
When I called Bert's I asked for a restored original cutout, but I think it's a new one.
There is a picture of it in this thread. Post #23
http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...=201118&page=2

I'll play around with it again tonight, and read the voltage across the cutout terminals.

Thanks Guys.

Tommy-

[Mitch//pa]

I know many swear by the original style...

I only use the diode installed cutouts... Never had to worry about the contacts..
Never seen one fail yet

[TommyCoupe]

I may buy another, but I'd hate to keep buying cutouts and find out that the generator is shot.

There's a guy not too far from where I work that rebuilds generators/alternators/starters/etc.

Maybe I'll just drop it off and have him go over the whole thing.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Did you jump across the cutout terminals while the engine is running at fast idle, then read the voltage?

[Terry, NJ]

A few weeks ago I was having the same problems (well similar) Mine may have been due to the fact that it was hooked up backwards. It was an early (?) generator (Not Powerhouse) with the connector at the front of the gen. case instead of the rear. As it got progressively worse, it went from me having to polarize every time I used the car to not fully charging at all beyond a 1V trickle charge with the ammeter reading 0, no charge, no discharge! Towards the end of it's useful life, the needle was bouncing so I turned the commutator. It was out of round and I did no harm to it and it ran steadier till it gave up the ghost completely. Tom W. gave me a couple of tests to perform that involved insulating the armature from the brushes with strips of light cardboard and while the tests did not show anything, the generator kept failing. Now it's out being replaced with a one with standard connections configuration.
Terry

[TommyCoupe]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Did you jump across the cutout terminals while the engine is running at fast idle, then read the voltage?

I will try this tonight.

[TommyCoupe]

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OK. I feel like the dumb kid on the playground that keeps getting beat up by the bully.

Today, before I started the engine, the battery was at 6.14V.
I started the engine and put it on a fast idle.
Cutout output side (where yellow wire is connected) to ground was 6.09V.
Cutout output side to opposite side of cutout (generator output stud) was 6.09V.
Generator output stud to ground fluctuates from 8.09 to 12V.
Not sure what any of this means, but I think I'll have a beer.

BTW. Turned engine off and steam came out of the radiator overflow tube again. Perhaps this car doesn't like sitting in one place at a fast idle.
Steam doesn't come out when it's running.

Tommy-

[Tom Wesenberg]

It means the output stud nut is loose, corroded, or you are still not using an analog meter as recommended.

Use an alligator clip to jump from the generator output STUD to the yellow wire terminal, then measure the voltage of that connection at fast idle.

Pictures would help.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Here is an inexpensive 10 volt DC meter that is excellent to use for Model A voltage checks.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/162135741015...MakeTrack=true

[TommyCoupe]

Analog meter on it's way

[Tom Wesenberg]

Here are some alligator clips to use with the meter, and to use to make jumper leads.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10x-Stainles...IAAOSwSHZWdJ5V

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Here is an inexpensive 10 volt DC meter that is excellent to use for Model A voltage checks.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/162135741015...MakeTrack=true

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Here are some alligator clips to use with the meter, and to use to make jumper leads.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10x-Stainles...IAAOSwSHZWdJ5V

and a box to put it in,

Box

[TommyCoupe]

Analog meter results:
Battery voltage before startup 5.9V.
Started engine. Jumped wire across the cutout to read voltage like the photo.
The ammeter pegged, and the jumper wire smoked and melted.
Voltage at cutout output side 5.9V(yellow wire side), after the jumper wire was removed.
Generator output post to ground now reads 0V with engine running.

Must be a short inside the generator.
4th down and long, I think i'll punt.

Tommy-

[John Kuhnast]

Willie Krash is right. An old guy taught me when you have a problem just sit and look at the car until you get a message,

[Tom Wesenberg]

I would remove the cutout, then measure the ohms from the case to the input terminal.
It should be 40 to 50 ohms.

While the cutout is off start the engine and measure the voltage at the generator stud.

[TommyCoupe]

More weekend fun.
Pulled the cutout and measured ohms from gen stud to grd.
No resistance at all, so I decided to take the plunge and start taking the generator apart. Something that I don't feel qualified to do, but at this point, why not.
Pictures attached.
You'll see that the field coil wire was hanging on by a strand, and it broke off just before I took the picture.
So I soldered on a new wire and put it all back together, and wrapped all the exposed wires with heat shrink.
Put it all back together and measured ohms. Still nothing.
Pu the jumper cables on it, and it spun.
Took the generator stud out and made sure it wasn't grounding out. It wasn't.
Then I put it back in the car and started it (without the cutout).
Gen output to ground read 17-18V. The needle wasn't bouncing. It just looks to be in that range.
Out the cutout back on, and polarized the generator.
Ran the car at fast idle.
No movement on ammeter, voltage at battery and voltage at cutout output was the same, looks like about 5.8 V on the analog meter.
Measured gen output to ground, and it was less than 2V.

I think I will just bring it to someone who can fix it. I'm wasting too much of my weekends.

Tommy-

[TommyCoupe]

oops. Pictures

[Bob C]

From the wear on the brushes it looks like they have very little contact
with the armature.

Bob

[Tom Wesenberg]

You should swap two brushes, and insulate the wire from the power brush to the stud.

The thin field brush goes on the adjustable ring.

The short side of the brushes faces the brush holder pivot, just as you have them.